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K3 and recording SSB

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Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

K3 and recording SSB

Hey Folks,

I'm planning a serious effort for CQWW SSB in October and would like
to record the entire contest digitally to my laptop (not the logging
computer, a different one). I'd like to also include in the recording
the monitor audio on XMIT, is this possible?

If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too. My plan is to
just run the LINE-OUT from the K3 to my MIC-IN on my laptop, and
adjust MIC levels until I have something that doesn't distort. Any
words of wisdom or success stories are welcome...

Thanks!

Jeff N6GQ
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.k8dd.-2

Re: K3 and recording SSB

When you record both XMT and RCV audio the level is controlled by the AF
Gain control on the K3 rather than a fixed level output. To keep from
distorting on the laptop you have to keep from turning the AF Gain up too
high, which can cause distortion on the laptop. This can make it difficult
to copy weak stations on the air.

I have used Writelog and N1MM to test this. But if the laptop is
independent of the logging PC you could use Audacity - a free audio program.

73 Hank K8DD

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Kinzli N6GQ" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:43 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 and recording SSB

> Hey Folks,
>
> I'm planning a serious effort for CQWW SSB in October and would like
> to record the entire contest digitally to my laptop (not the logging
> computer, a different one). I'd like to also include in the recording
> the monitor audio on XMIT, is this possible?
>
> If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
> recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too. My plan is to
> just run the LINE-OUT from the K3 to my MIC-IN on my laptop, and
> adjust MIC levels until I have something that doesn't distort. Any
> words of wisdom or success stories are welcome...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff N6GQ
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3 and recording SSB

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Jeff,

For recording software, I suggest Total Recorder (www.highcriteria.com)
for recording ease. It is not free, but is budget priced and does the
task well.

If you are looking for something free, I suggest you look at Audacity
from www.sourceforge.net - it is a great audio editor and is open source
and multi-platform.

I record with Total Recorder and edit with Audacity myself.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jeff Kinzli N6GQ wrote:

Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Re: K3 and recording SSB

Thanks guys...I have Audacity, and that's what I was thinking of using
unless someone had a better idea.

I'm still wondering if there's a way to get the monitor audio out the
line-out output from the rear. It would be there out the headphone
jack but as K8DD pointed out, that is going to be controlled by the AF
Gain, which isn't optimal.

Jeff N6GQ

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 19:15, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> For recording software, I suggest Total Recorder (www.highcriteria.com) for
> recording ease. It is not free, but is budget priced and does the task
> well.
>
> If you are looking for something free, I suggest you look at Audacity from
> www.sourceforge.net - it is a great audio editor and is open source and
> multi-platform.
>
> I record with Total Recorder and edit with Audacity myself.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Jeff Kinzli N6GQ wrote:
>>
>> Hey Folks,
>>
>> I'm planning a serious effort for CQWW SSB in October and would like
>> to record the entire contest digitally to my laptop (not the logging
>> computer, a different one). I'd like to also include in the recording
>> the monitor audio on XMIT, is this possible?
>>
>> If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
>> recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too. My plan is to
>> just run the LINE-OUT from the K3 to my MIC-IN on my laptop, and
>> adjust MIC levels until I have something that doesn't distort. Any
>> words of wisdom or success stories are welcome...
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jeff N6GQ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
>> 270.6.3/1613 - Release Date: 8/15/2008 5:58 AM
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Bob Cunnings NW8L

Re: K3 and recording SSB

He didn't say that you couldn't get the monitor audio from the line
out output - only that if you do so (by setting LIN OUT to "=PHONES")
the level is controlled by the AF gain control on the front panel. See
page 55 of the latest owner's manual.

Bob NW8L

On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Jeff Kinzli N6GQ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks guys...I have Audacity, and that's what I was thinking of using
> unless someone had a better idea.
>
> I'm still wondering if there's a way to get the monitor audio out the
> line-out output from the rear. It would be there out the headphone
> jack but as K8DD pointed out, that is going to be controlled by the AF
> Gain, which isn't optimal.
>
> Jeff N6GQ
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 19:15, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> For recording software, I suggest Total Recorder (www.highcriteria.com) for
>> recording ease. It is not free, but is budget priced and does the task
>> well.
>>
>> If you are looking for something free, I suggest you look at Audacity from
>> www.sourceforge.net - it is a great audio editor and is open source and
>> multi-platform.
>>
>> I record with Total Recorder and edit with Audacity myself.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Jeff Kinzli N6GQ wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Folks,
>>>
>>> I'm planning a serious effort for CQWW SSB in October and would like
>>> to record the entire contest digitally to my laptop (not the logging
>>> computer, a different one). I'd like to also include in the recording
>>> the monitor audio on XMIT, is this possible?
>>>
>>> If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
>>> recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too. My plan is to
>>> just run the LINE-OUT from the K3 to my MIC-IN on my laptop, and
>>> adjust MIC levels until I have something that doesn't distort. Any
>>> words of wisdom or success stories are welcome...
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jeff N6GQ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.6.3/1613 - Release Date: 8/15/2008 5:58 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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David Cutter

Re: K3 and recording SSB & CW

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Is there an optimum setting for digital recording (bit rate?) that will
maximise memory capacity? I presume that ssb and cw being narrow audio need
<<than hi fi. Has anyone done the sums to record a 48 hour contest? This
would be brilliant for training.

Even better to record a segment of the band that can be replayed using LP
PAN etc. What memory capacity would be needed for that and is it practical
to do?

David
G3UNA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Kinzli N6GQ" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and recording SSB

.k8dd.-2

Re: K3 and recording SSB & CW

N1MM records QSO's where Writelog records continuously.

Using N1MM in the NA QSO Party, for 424 QSOs, I used 500 Mb.
A 25 second QSO took 1,101 KB Audio Format PCM 11.025, 16 Bit, Stereo.

With Writelog one hour (3582.78 seconds) is 6,998 KB Audio format MPEG
Layer-3 16 kBits/s, 11,025 Hz, Mono.

Quite possibly I could have cut down the audio format to something like PCM
8 kHz, 8 Bit, Mono 7 kb/sec. That would have saved about 4,000 KB. But
the 8 kHz quality was a fair amount less quality than the 11025 Hz in WPX
SSB using an IC-746 with fixed line output.

So I guess it depends on which program you are using to record, how much
quality you want and how big your hard drive is!

73 Hank K8DD

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Cutter" <[hidden email]>
To: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and recording SSB & CW

> Is there an optimum setting for digital recording (bit rate?) that will
> maximise memory capacity? I presume that ssb and cw being narrow audio
> need <<than hi fi. Has anyone done the sums to record a 48 hour contest?
> This would be brilliant for training.
>
> Even better to record a segment of the band that can be replayed using LP
> PAN etc. What memory capacity would be needed for that and is it
> practical to do?
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Kinzli N6GQ" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and recording SSB
>
>
>> Thanks guys...I have Audacity, and that's what I was thinking of using
>> unless someone had a better idea.
>>
>> I'm still wondering if there's a way to get the monitor audio out the
>> line-out output from the rear. It would be there out the headphone
>> jack but as K8DD pointed out, that is going to be controlled by the AF
>> Gain, which isn't optimal.
>>
>> Jeff N6GQ
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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David Woolley (E.L)

Re: K3 and recording SSB & CW

In reply to this post by David Cutter

David Cutter wrote:
> Is there an
> optimum setting for digital recording (bit rate?) that will maximise
> memory capacity? I presume that ssb and cw being narrow audio need
> <<than hi fi. Has anyone done the sums to record a 48 hour contest?
> This would be brilliant for training.

Real optimum recording depends on defining exactly what nuances of the
signal that you want to preserve. However, for simple, PCM, storage,
which gives a pretty faithful reproduction, other than quantisation
noise, you want to sample at approximately twice the bandwidth at
halfway down the receiver filter skirts.

Ideally, you should do this based on the true lower bound frequency, but
you will need special software to both record and play this, and you
will need to oversample in the sound card, as sound card anti-aliasing
filters assume that the lower limit is zero.

The PSTN used to use SSB on its carrier systems, with a nose bandwidth
of 3.1kHz and an lower nose frequency of 300Hz, Amateur SSB (as against
ESSB) is rather narrower than this. Digital PSTN converts this to 8kHz
sampling, so you will never need more than 8kHz sampling and 6kHz would
probably work quite well.

As for bits per sample, you should, at least, be using the same systems
as the telephone network uses, i.e. A or mu-law companding into 8 bit
codes. Anything except the original 8 bit Sound Blaster will have
provision for generating A and mu-law files. I'm not sure how well CVSD
(continuous variable slope delta) (4 bits per sample) works with noisy
signals.

Given that communications voice tends to have a fairly constant
amplitude, at the audio output, even 8 bit linear would have an
acceptable SNR, but there is really no reason not to use A or mu-law,
these days.

With signal type aware encoding, and clean signals, as one might get in
an FM ragchew environment, you should be able to get acceptable archive
quality at 2.4kb/s, using linear predictive coding. Algorithms for this
sort of bit rate are published on the internet, and were, I think
devised by the military to allow the use of digital encryption, some
twenty to thirty years ago.

For noisy signals, one would need to experiment. For speech, another
LPC based codec, that runs a bit faster, GSM full rate might be worth
trying, at 13.6 kb/s. This is the typical codec used for voice recording
in the Asterisk open source PABX. There is a half rate GSM algorithm,
but I haven't seen publicly available implementations of this.

Low bit rate versions of MP3 might be worth trying as well, e.g. the
8kb/s and 16kb/s. Although MP3 is designed for music, rather than
speech, the 16kb/s certainly works well for communications quality
speech, at least in the absence of noise.

The ideal encoding for morse is, of course, to decode it, although I
imagine one could get some quite compact coding that didn't go that far.

On the other hand, if you intend to do any detailed analysis for
harmonic distortion or any other detailed technical analysis, you want
at least 16 bit linear, simple PCM. You should never use MP3 for
reference samples.

All the above would be mono.

>
> Even better to record a segment of the band that can be replayed using
> LP PAN etc. What memory capacity would be needed for that and is it
> practical to do?

If you sample before the roofing filters, you need as fast as you get by
as many bits as you can get. In practice that means 96kHz and 16 bits,
although 24 bits would be better. You need to do this in stereo, to get
both I and Q components. We are therefore talking about 384kB/s or 375KB/s.

If you do it after a roofing filter, you need to sample at a rate
equivalent to the bandwidth about half way down the filter skirts. In
practice, the K3 roofing filters are all too narrow to get useful
panning post filter.

--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 and recording SSB & CW

In reply to this post by .k8dd.-2

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:03:51 -0400, hank k8dd wrote:

>Quite possibly I could have cut down the audio format to something
>like PCM 8 kHz, 8 Bit, Mono 7 kb/sec.

The bandwidth of ham communications is less than 4 kHz. It's silly to use
more than 8 kHz bandwidth to record it when documentation is the only
concern. The 64kB mpeg stream from my internet jazz station is quite
satisfying for full bandwidth music, so at least modest data compression
is also in order. I wouldn't do more than modest data compression though
-- the algorithms use a lot of bits to describe QRN. Think what your cell
phone sounds like when someone is in the noisy location! :)

73,

Jim K9YC

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Jack Smith-6

K3 AGC and IF Output Data

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

My K3 arrived Wednesday (SN 1378, assembled with 100W and 2nd receiver
option, ordered in late May 2007 and held until the 2nd receiver was
available, for those who keep track of such things.)

I've had a chance to look at a couple of items and have written two new
web pages with the results of my measurements.

First is what do the AGC SLP and AGC THD settings actually correspond
to? Using an automated data collection system, I've looked at the K3's
audio output for RF levels between -140 and -20 dBm with varous AGC THD
and AGC SLP settings. I also looked at the S-meter calibration over a
similar range while I was at it.
http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm

Second, I went through the IF sample port signal level measurements,
including transfer gain (around -17.7 dB) and 8215 KHz isolation (68 dB
or thereabouts) as well as signals out of the IF sample port other than
the desired IF frequencies. I also looked at performance of a Softrock
6.2 Lite and my Z90 when connected to the K3 with and without an
auxiliary buffer amplifier. There's also an important note for Z90
owners planning on using their Z90 (or Z91) with a K3.
http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_and_panadapters.htm

Jack K8ZOA
www.cliftonlaboratories.com

>
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Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Re: K3 and recording SSB

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Nick and others, thanks for the replies and information.

Sounds like I have some options, and I should be able to get things
working reasonably well.

See you all in the pileups.

Jeff N6GQ (op @ KH6LC)

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 03:03, Nick Lekic <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jeff
>
> There are many programs which will allow you to record the audio, but the
> problem
> starts when the time comes to find some particular QSOs in the pile of
> recorded files.
>
> Writelog was perfect for this purpose but I no longer use it for different
> reasons.
>
> I settled with Recall Pro ( http://www.sagebrush.com/recpro.htm )which is
> not as flexible compared with
> Writelog but it does the job.
>
> The program can split the recording after each hour giving you, say, 48
> files per entire contest. Mine is configured
> to auto name each file by inserting a contest name, the hour and minute.
> Eg. ww2007cw_1000.mp3 for recording
> segment beginning at 10:00GMT.
>
> Depending on MP3 compression level used, each file will be somewhere between
> 10Mb and 15Mb in size.
>
> Since the time stamps are recorded you can later open a selected MP3 file
> and search for a specific point in time (in seconds)
> by moving the playback slider to desired position.
>
> Writelog was unbeatable for this feature. You could just browse through
> your log, right-click on the given QSO and select 'play this qso'.
> I wish other contest logging programs could do that.
>
> 73, Nick
> ve3ey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Kinzli N6GQ <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 11:51:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and recording SSB
>
> Thanks guys...I have Audacity, and that's what I was thinking of using
> unless someone had a better idea.
>
> I'm still wondering if there's a way to get the monitor audio out the
> line-out output from the rear. It would be there out the headphone
> jack but as K8DD pointed out, that is going to be controlled by the AF
> Gain, which isn't optimal.
>
> Jeff N6GQ
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 19:15, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> For recording software, I suggest Total Recorder (www.highcriteria.com)
>> for
>> recording ease. It is not free, but is budget priced and does the task
>> well.
>>
>> If you are looking for something free, I suggest you look at Audacity from
>> www.sourceforge.net - it is a great audio editor and is open source and
>> multi-platform.
>>
>> I record with Total Recorder and edit with Audacity myself.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Jeff Kinzli N6GQ wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Folks,
>>>
>>> I'm planning a serious effort for CQWW SSB in October and would like
>>> to record the entire contest digitally to my laptop (not the logging
>>> computer, a different one). I'd like to also include in the recording
>>> the monitor audio on XMIT, is this possible?
>>>
>>> If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
>>> recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too. My plan is to
>>> just run the LINE-OUT from the K3 to my MIC-IN on my laptop, and
>>> adjust MIC levels until I have something that doesn't distort. Any
>>> words of wisdom or success stories are welcome...
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jeff N6GQ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
>>> 270.6.3/1613 - Release Date: 8/15/2008 5:58 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
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>

Bjorn

Re: K3 and recording SSB

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

Hi Jeff,

Looprecorder (http://looprecorder.de/) is great for this. You can set it up
to save at any interval, like once an hour adding the hour in the file name.

Another good use is to have it loop record the last 10 minutes whenever you
are active, that way you can always go back to verify a call or report
without filling up the hard drive.

There is a low price simple version which is enough for our purposes, but
also a more sophisticated version used by radio stations for reference
logging.

I have no affiliation with them, but have been a happy user for many years.
If anyone know a similar program for MAC I'll be happy to RX info about it.

73 de Björn /SM0MDG

On 2008-08-16 02.43, "Jeff Kinzli N6GQ" <[hidden email]> wrote:

M0XDF

Re: K3 and recording SSB

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

but if you know when you started your recording and you know when the
QSO is, it should be easy to find the QSO, shouldn't it? All recording
programs I've used have track times.
--
Anyone can do any amount of work, provided it isn't the work he is
supposed
to be doing at that moment. -Robert Benchley

On 17 Aug 2008, at 19:29, Jeff Kinzli N6GQ wrote:
>> but the
>> problem
>> starts when the time comes to find some particular QSOs in the pile
>> of
>> recorded files.
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Paul-285

Re: K3 and recording SSB

In reply to this post by Jeff Kinzli N6GQ

>If anyone has had any great success with any particular computer
>recording software, I'd love to hear about that, too.

www.TotalRecorder.com/ works FB for recording anything coming out of
the sound card.

I've used it for years.

Paul N4LCD

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