K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
 
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"I hope the idea of replacement through new modules is followed. That is
where a radio built with daughter boards on a master mother board is more amenable to hardware upgrades. The tradeoff is reliability issues with daughter board connectors (over time)." I agree with your statement above. The Heathkit HW/SB-104 was this way, in that it had a backplane that the boards plugged into. I have had Ten-Tecradios that were on this order also. No sense replacing the whole radio when a circuit board can be replaced instead. I realize Elecraft radios are more complex, but I like to see the use of daughter boards for certain things. I'd rather send back a circuit board for repair or upgrade than the whole radio. Dick, n0ce On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:27 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > Pretty well covered by others. > > One more fact to consider is the K3 is a SDR which means the firmware can > continually be improved or embellished, thus keeping the radio from > obsolescence. The promise of SDR is that it can continually re-invent > itself with new sw (firmware). With ten years under its belt a lot of > ideas have already been incorporated. Recent improvement in AGC is an > example of continual product improvement. Elecraft is the only > organization I see this coming with any regularity. The typical mfr rolls > out a whole new piece of hardware requiring you to dispose of the old radio > and spending a lot of money on the "new stuff". Have you noticed that > Elecraft new firmware is free! > > In time the hardware is replaceable with new technology, so eventually > there will be better components for building SDR's and that might lead to a > successor to the K3. In a manner of speaking the KX3 is that. > > I hope the idea of replacement through new modules is followed. That is > where a radio built with daughter boards on a master mother board is more > amenable to hardware upgrades. The tradeoff is reliability issues with > daughter board connectors (over time). > > Those of us that like to experiment with new stuff like the modular > approach. Think of new firmware as new modules! > > 73, Ed - KL7UW > http://www.kl7uw.com > [hidden email] > "Kits made by KL7UW" > ______________________________**______________________________**__ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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Giving the high quality of Elecraft products, and the phenomenal customer
service, not to mention the made in the USA stamp, I think an Elecraft 2m/440 HT would be a huge success. I know I would be one of those people camping out in front of the store for a week just be first in line to buy one. Hopefully the Elecraft gods are listening. 73, Steve KS6PD On Monday, August 19, 2013, Richard Fjeld wrote: > "I hope the idea of replacement through new modules is followed. That is > where a radio built with daughter boards on a master mother board is more > amenable to hardware upgrades. The tradeoff is reliability issues with > daughter board connectors (over time)." > > I agree with your statement above. The Heathkit HW/SB-104 was this way, in > that it had a backplane that the boards plugged into. I have had > Ten-Tecradios that were on this order also. No sense replacing the > whole radio > when a circuit board can be replaced instead. I realize Elecraft radios > are more complex, but I like to see the use of daughter boards for certain > things. I'd rather send back a circuit board for repair or upgrade than > the whole radio. > > Dick, n0ce > > > On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 2:27 AM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]<javascript:;>> > wrote: > > > Pretty well covered by others. > > > > One more fact to consider is the K3 is a SDR which means the firmware can > > continually be improved or embellished, thus keeping the radio from > > obsolescence. The promise of SDR is that it can continually re-invent > > itself with new sw (firmware). With ten years under its belt a lot of > > ideas have already been incorporated. Recent improvement in AGC is an > > example of continual product improvement. Elecraft is the only > > organization I see this coming with any regularity. The typical mfr > rolls > > out a whole new piece of hardware requiring you to dispose of the old > radio > > and spending a lot of money on the "new stuff". Have you noticed that > > Elecraft new firmware is free! > > > > In time the hardware is replaceable with new technology, so eventually > > there will be better components for building SDR's and that might lead > to a > > successor to the K3. In a manner of speaking the KX3 is that. > > > > I hope the idea of replacement through new modules is followed. That is > > where a radio built with daughter boards on a master mother board is more > > amenable to hardware upgrades. The tradeoff is reliability issues with > > daughter board connectors (over time). > > > > Those of us that like to experiment with new stuff like the modular > > approach. Think of new firmware as new modules! > > > > 73, Ed - KL7UW > > http://www.kl7uw.com > > [hidden email] <javascript:;> > > "Kits made by KL7UW" > > ______________________________**______________________________**__ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft< > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm< > http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > > Post: mailto:[hidden email]. <javascript:;>**net < > [hidden email] <javascript:;>> > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <javascript:;> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2
On 8/19/2013 7:21 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote:
> The K3 has enough software and also in the filtering, but it depends > HEAVILY on the analog IF filtering. > It is a combination, that's why I call it a hybrid. Consider for a moment an SDR with no analog filtering at all. How wide would the passband be? Are we going to cover everything from MF to 6m? The A-D converter is going to have to convert everything coming in, and the DSP is going to have to sort out what you want out of everything coming in: broadcast, other services, noise 50 MHz wide, and who knows what else. I'd rather have the DSP concentrate on a smaller bandwidth signal, and have the processing power available for the few MHz I care about at any given time. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
Don hits the nail on the head. Compare Elecraft product support, for
example, to YaeKenCom whose only fix for product defects is a new product two years later .... with new defects! Or to HP whose printers are officially out of support before the inventory is sold off of dealer shelves. /Rick On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 1:05 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > What I am suggesting is that if you purchase a K3, you can expect it to be > supported long into the future. > > I do not have the 'inside track' information about what Elecraft is now > working on, nor can I say when it may be revealed, but you can buy a K3 or > KX3 and you will find that not only is it a top performer, but will remain > so for some time, and you can rely on Elecraft support long into the > future. A new product will not diminish support of the present products. > -- Rick Tavan N6XI Truckee, CA ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Stephen Selberg
Steve,
What would you be willing to pay? What would it have that current import units do not? (perhaps a manual you can understand or a set of controls that easily access the gazillion features?) Let's face it the current crop of 2m/440 are almost priced to be disposables. What market share is left to go after? 73 Brian/K3KO On 8/19/2013 15:50, Stephen Selberg wrote: > Giving the high quality of Elecraft products, and the phenomenal customer > service, not to mention the made in the USA stamp, I think an Elecraft > 2m/440 HT would be a huge success. I know I would be one of those people > camping out in front of the store for a week just be first in line to buy > one. Hopefully the Elecraft gods are listening. > > 73, > > Steve KS6PD ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3211/6089 - Release Date: 08/19/13 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Fwd: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Richard Fjeld
To comment further on part of my past post:
To my way of thinking, if Elecraft could perfect this well, so that the radio would never become obsolete, it would become the most practical and popular radio of all. Hardware upgrades would still be profitable. I think Elecraft would have a hard time keeping up with radio sales. " No sense replacing the whole radio when a circuit board can be replaced instead. I realize Elecraft radios are more complex, but I like to see the use of daughter boards for certain things. I'd rather send back a circuit board for repair or upgrade than the whole radio." > > Dick, n0ce > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Stephen Selberg
HI Steve:
Perhaps. I have a feeling, however, that an HT would not be something that Elecraft would offer. There simply are too many competitor products out there that do the job. For example... the $32 Baofeng UV-5R, not to mention all the HTs made by Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, and Alinco. The market is saturated with HTs. As nice as it would be to have the Elecraft brand on the front of an HT, ... I don't see it happening. Elecraft has made it's mark by offering gear that -no one- is making. And, making the best performing unit they can. Consider the line: K2, K1, KX1, K3, KX3. Does -any- other company offer a truly competitive (for features) unit? This is not to say that something might happen way down the road, maybe a digital voice HT, whenever a true DV standard is reached. But, for now, I really do not believe Elecraft would consider marketing an HT. 73 de Ray K2ULR KX3 #211 On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Stephen Selberg wrote: > Giving the high quality of Elecraft products, and the phenomenal > customer > service, not to mention the made in the USA stamp, I think an Elecraft > 2m/440 HT would be a huge success. I know I would be one of those > people > camping out in front of the store for a week just be first in line > to buy > one. Hopefully the Elecraft gods are listening. > > 73, > > Steve KS6PD ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Trevor Dunne
Even if a K4 announcement were made today you'd likely experience an
almost unbearable waiting period before you'd actually be able to get your hands on one. In other words, it's probably best to just go buy a K3 and have fun in the meantime! You can always sell the K3 later to help fund the K4... Here's what I would like: A remote control head with a direct wireless link to the K3 (or K4, whatever...), for short-distance grab-and-use portability around home and property. For a K4, that would mean the front panel would be a docking wireless control head that could be easily detached and used to operate the rig remotely around the home. 73, Drew AF2Z On Sun, 18 Aug 2013 20:39:06 +0100 (BST), you wrote: >Hi All > >I have been reading the mail here for some time while I debate the purchase of a K3 in my head. I can't help to notice the lack of subjects covering the K3 and the lack of new firmware in over 4 months. > > >Would if be fair to think that development has finished on the K3 and that now all the accessories(amp,P3,ATU,ect) are in place, also the KX3 and matching amp are out there, Have the good people in Elecraft moved on to develop a new radio a K4 maybe ???? > >Nothing worse than getting something new only for it to be replaced by a newer model a few weeks after getting it. > > >Thanks >Trevor >EI2GLB ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Raymond Sills
I realize it'll never happen because of the $32 cheapies on the market. I
was more dreaming about something I know wouldn't happen. To answer another question someone asked, I'd probably pay $400-$500 for an Elecraft HT that I know would be much higher in quality and workmanship, have great support and customer service, and yes, a manual I could read. I'm sure there are plenty of US hams who would pay more money for a quality made in the USA HT. My earlier statement was rhetorical with distant hopes of possibility. But for now I'll keep saving up my funds for a kpa500 to compliment the shack. I officially drank the kool-aid when I purchased my kx3 and hope to replace everything in the shack with elecraft gear. Is there less expensive equipment on the market? Yes, will it come with the support that Elecraft provides? Probably not. I'm planning on getting the KAT500 this week. Could I get the LDG at600 and save myself $300? I could...but I'd rather spend the extra money for something I know will work and come with outstanding support from not only the company, but a fine group of users as well. To the original poster of this thread, IMHO, I say get the K3 and not worry about a K4. I know I am just as soon as I get more funds as I hate using credit cards. I know I won't have to replace the rig in 2 years as Elecraft works very hard to fix whatever bugs the radio might have. I don't see that support from the yaekencom people. I like my 590, but there's some known issues with it. Over the last 3 years, kenwood has not done much in my opinion to fix them. Instead, I think they put all their time into the 990. Based on my experience from this reflector, if someone has an issue or bug, the Elecraft team immediately tries to duplicate and then fix that bug. If only more companies operated like that. And that's why I'd pay extra for an elecraft HT (I know, it won't happen). As was already mentioned, if a k4 or whatever did come out, it'd probably have a different purpose or use than the K3. So go for it! And get me one too! Hihi I can dream right? 73, KS6PD Sent from my iPhone. Forgive the grammar and typos On Monday, August 19, 2013, Ray Sills wrote: > HI Steve: > > Perhaps. I have a feeling, however, that an HT would not be something > that Elecraft would offer. There simply are too many competitor products > out there that do the job. For example... the $32 Baofeng UV-5R, not to > mention all the HTs made by Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, and Alinco. The market > is saturated with HTs. > > As nice as it would be to have the Elecraft brand on the front of an HT, > ... I don't see it happening. Elecraft has made it's mark by offering gear > that -no one- is making. And, making the best performing unit they can. > Consider the line: K2, K1, KX1, K3, KX3. Does -any- other company offer a > truly competitive (for features) unit? > > This is not to say that something might happen way down the road, maybe a > digital voice HT, whenever a true DV standard is reached. > But, for now, I really do not believe Elecraft would consider marketing an > HT. > > 73 de Ray > K2ULR > KX3 #211 > > > On Aug 19, 2013, at 11:50 AM, Stephen Selberg wrote: > > Giving the high quality of Elecraft products, and the phenomenal customer >> service, not to mention the made in the USA stamp, I think an Elecraft >> 2m/440 HT would be a huge success. I know I would be one of those people >> camping out in front of the store for a week just be first in line to buy >> one. Hopefully the Elecraft gods are listening. >> >> 73, >> >> Steve KS6PD >> > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Rick Tavan N6XI
Rick makes an excellent point. Buy a new YaeKenCom and that radio will
be the same the day you sell it as it was on the day you bought it. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the biggest "threat" to the K3 in the future is simply running out of buttons and knobs as features are added to the radio. Maybe at some point there will be a K3 mark II where the big change is a new front panel that has been "tuned" to the evolving feature set. Disclaimer: I don't know the K3 well enough to critique the current front panel, I suspect the current front panel works fine. I have a KX3. On 8/19/2013 9:10 AM, Rick Tavan N6XI wrote: > Don hits the nail on the head. Compare Elecraft product support, for > example, to YaeKenCom whose only fix for product defects is a new product > two years later .... with new defects! Or to HP whose printers are > officially out of support before the inventory is sold off of dealer > shelves. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
Lynn,
We don't have to worry about processorpower. The hardware is already there and still developping. And Yes, sampling up to 6m is possible. Apart from that, the interfacing from the machine to us humans can certainly do better with some innovation (new ideas) as well. 73, Arie PA3A Op 19-8-2013 18:07, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT schreef: > > Consider for a moment an SDR with no analog filtering at all. > > How wide would the passband be? Are we going to cover everything from > MF to 6m? > > The A-D converter is going to have to convert everything coming in, > and the DSP is going to have to sort out what you want out of > everything coming in: broadcast, other services, noise 50 MHz wide, > and who knows what else. > > I'd rather have the DSP concentrate on a smaller bandwidth signal, and > have the processing power available for the few MHz I care about at > any given time. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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On 8/19/2013 11:38 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote:
> We don't have to worry about processorpower. The hardware is already > there and still developping. And Yes, sampling up to 6m is possible. Arie, I understand your position. It's just that a $20 filter can reduce the amount of processing needed by a couple of orders of magnitude. It probably doesn't even need to be a great filter, you can fix that in the DSP. ... and my experience, working with computers since 1969, is that no matter how much processing you have, there is always a need for just a tiny bit more. The best part of the DSP is that the manufacturer can (most don't, but they can -- Elecraft does) improve the radio over time. I'm not familiar with the other Software Defined Radios out there, but I'll bet that nearly all of them do some kind of analog pre-filtering, then do the heavy lifting in software. -- Lynn ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2
I could use some education here please:
What is the advantage of sampling directly off the antenna? I'm surmising that's what is meant by "real SDR" vs "hybrid SDR". I don't know if 32-bit ADC's existed when the K3 was being designed, but Elecraft settled on the hybrid superhet analog 1st IF/digital 2nd IF for at least one reason and probably many. The dynamic range of signal amplitudes at my coax connector across the 0 to 30MHz spectrum has got to be huge, even after LORAN-C shut down. Is there really any benefit to having that broad a spectrum with that large an amplitude range in the number soup? If you want to observe that spectrum, wouldn't it be better to use a spectrum analyzer and save your communications receiver to be optimized to deal with the tiny little slices we want 99.999% of the time? If the K3 sampled at the 8MHz 1st IF, after the analog roofing filters [i.e. RF amp and 1st mixer only], would it make the K3 a "real SDR" in the eyes of those who don't see it that way now? I'm serious about the "education" part, this "Is the K3 an SDR" thread has been going, on and off, for more than a year. It seems that we have two ideologies going, "Digitalists" vs "Analogists." Unfortunately, debating ideologies qualitatively is rarely productive. My education is in math, my understanding of EE is the result of 60 years in ham radio colored by a math background. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 8/19/2013 11:38 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: > We don't have to worry about processorpower. The hardware is already > there and still developping. And Yes, sampling up to 6m is possible. > Apart from that, the interfacing from the machine to us humans can > certainly do better with some innovation (new ideas) as well. > Op 19-8-2013 18:07, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT schreef: >> >> Consider for a moment an SDR with no analog filtering at all. >> >> How wide would the passband be? Are we going to cover everything from >> MF to 6m? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
Lynn,
Some filtering ahead or some attenuation or preamp will be there or better said: are there. What I meant is that the transceiver of the near future will use an HF A/D converter, so direct digital sampling. One of the first widely available RX's (at a nice price) was the perseus RX. Lots of info on the net about this little RX. A nice application of this principle is found as a 'web-sdr'. See here http://websdr.ewi.utwente.nl:8901/ You can even check your own signal with it (if propagation permits hi) 73 Arie PA3A Op 19-8-2013 21:12, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT schreef: > > > I'm not familiar with the other Software Defined Radios out there, but > I'll bet that nearly all of them do some kind of analog pre-filtering, > then do the heavy lifting in software. > > -- Lynn ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Dear OMs and Yls,
DSP helps us all but the analogue side of electronics will be with us for some time. Audio and RF are both analogue signals Amplifiers are needed and amplifiers often benefit from some filtering. The DAC and ADC are of course both digital and analogue. What we want is the optimum blend without any fixation on digital, analogue or computer processing. Many of us feel that Elecraft has got the GUI pretty well developed. The Flex Radio approach just does not suit all of us though perhaps we are as a hobby getting too long in the tooth. Always be ready to investigate new approaches but let us not be too insistent on DSP over all other approaches. 73 Doug EI2CN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Hi,
No, no crystal filters in a "pure" SDR. But if they sampled after the 1st mixer but before the roofing filter bank, maybe. If Elecraft added demodulator software and an audio output to the P3 that's exactly what the combination would be. Being able to display and record a significant portion of the HF spectrum plus the ability to demodulate very wide modes such as wideband FM is what is expected from a more or less "pure" SDR. The remaining K3 analog front end including the RF filters, attenuator and preamp would go a long way to make the A/D converter having an easier way. AB2TC - Knut
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Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by Trevor Dunne
In fact about all that is included in direct conversion SDR is basic
BP filter and possibly a preamp/attenuator. Not sure on those FUN-cube dongle receivers. 73, Ed - KL7UW ==snip== I'm not familiar with the other Software Defined Radios out there, but I'll bet that nearly all of them do some kind of analog pre-filtering, then do the heavy lifting in software. -- Lynn 73, Ed - KL7UW http://www.kl7uw.com [hidden email] "Kits made by KL7UW" ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by k6dgw
Warning: rather long reply follows.
If you don't care, or have your mind made up, please skip this email. Fred asked for some education, so here goes... I'm not an expert, but these are my personal ramblings from what I think that I have learned. If you don't agree, and the moderator doesn’t like this discussion here, maybe we can find another place to discuss? Or directly? Elecraft has done a WONDERFUL job taming the QSD/QSE "mixers" in the KX3. I LOVE MINE. I regularly tout it at meetings, including tonight. I think that I "sold" at least one KX3 and one K3 or another KX3. Having said that, the K3 and KX3 are subject to imperfections, just like any other analog circuitry. Yes, the KX3 uses a QSD with "switches", but they have analog characteristics for an analog signal as well (on-state impedance, on/off switch times, off-state leakage, etc). The op amps that follow them aren't perfect either. There will be a little imbalance between the I and Q channels, either in amplitude or phase, due to component variations. Kind of like the old phasing SSB days. All these imperfections add up in a complex way, and need to be dealt with to reduce image issues, both on receive and transmit. The KX3 does a remarkable job handling this. That's just one set of problems with "analog" radio circuitry. The "holy grail" of SDR is to put the ADC as CLOSE to the antenna as possible. The reason is simple: the sooner you get the signal converted into the digital domain (represented by numbers), the fewer imperfections from analog world circuitry will affect that signal. A digital mixer just multiplies two numbers, for example, a "LO" represented by a set of numbers describing a sine wave, and an input signal, possibly from the ADC. Within reason (and decent design), the numbers CANNOT change due to component imperfections, therefore you will not see problems with a digital version of a mixer, where the resulting signal is sort-of, close-to, but not what you want. Two times two should always equal four, not 3.9 once, 4.1 the next time, etc, due to component drift, or other issues. Filters are a different issue, but still more consistent and reliably reproduced in DSP than in the analog world. So, how can we get the HF signal right into the ADC? That is tough, because the ADC itself has a limited dynamic range (and a generally poor noise figure). Most SDRs use 12-bit to 16-bit ADCs, and sample from 66MHz to 123MHz rates. Dr. Mitola suggests in a book that good HF reception requires at least 130dB of dynamic range. IIRC 130dB works out to about 22-bits of ADC conversion. 16-bit ADCs by themselves provide somewhat less than 96dB, 12-bit ADCs provide slightly less than 72dB. So, traditionally even the better SDRs needed some sort of filtering before the ADC - to hopefully reduce any strong out-of-band signals. This may not work great on some bands, like 40M, where strong MW broadcast stations often appear just above or just below the ham band. There is a "trick" that is real-world, and reliable, that can improve the dynamic range of an ADC, called oversampling, that provides "processing gain". If you sample much faster than the signal of interest's frequency, and decimate those samples (throw out every so many samples), you can achieve additional dynamic range. I believe you gain roughly 6dB (or one ADC bit) every time you decimate by a factor of four. Up until recently, extremely fast and deep ADCs were too expensive for ham rigs, and it was hard to get more than about 20-24 dB processing gain. The new Flex 6000 series has a 16-bit ADC that samples at 245Ms/s. This allows them to have enough dynamic range to MAYBE not need filtering. Notice that they do have filters built into the radio, that can be enabled or disabled. Regardless, the main analog components in the 6000 series before the ADC are only filters (which should contribute negligible distortion to the signal of interest), and a preamp, also optionally in or out-of-circuit. I think even Flex has their fingers crossed regarding true dynamic range in the real world. Despite the comment on the Fun Cube Dongle Pro site, I doubt they have an actual 32-bit ADC. Even lower-frequency ADCs, such as in sound cards, do not achieve that level of success. In fact, I doubt that power supply noise, PC board layout, and many other factors prevent audio-frequency sound cards from achieving even the 24-bits that many claim. For RF at HF frequencies, 16-bit ADCs are about as good as it gets - that we can afford anyway. Don't get me wrong, a DDC/DUC-based radio CAN have serious issues as well. Overload (poor dynamic range), bad noise figure of the ADC, not lining up the sample values right (value overflow), and a host of other issues. Filtering can be just as tricky (or more) in the digital domain as in the analog world. And SDR hardware can be a pain to use and/or build. Anytime a computer is involved, you are taking your chances. Hi Hi. Sometimes knobs are just plain easier to use. Yes, there has been a lot of discussion about whether or not the K3 is an "SDR". I personally believe that it is, because a significant part of the SIGNAL PROCESSING is done in an executing software program, and that program can be changed. Not as easily as loading a new EXE in Windows, but it can be. Even though the RF front-end follows a traditional analog superhet receiver design up to the second IF. In my mind, there's no question that the KX3 is an SDR. It is similar in very basic layout as an SDR Cube, Softrock/host computer, etc, in that it uses QSD/QSE "mixers", an Si570, and a dsPIC back-end that is fully reconfigurable. I remember others here, including the author of much of the DSP code for the K3 and KX3 has previously stated that they also believe both rigs are SDRs. BTW, the Elecraft P3 IS A DDC RECEIVER, with a 14-bit ADC, sampling at about 60Ms/s, and feeding an ASIC DDC chip, then a dsPIC chip for FFT and other DSP work. Yes, it samples the 8.215MHz IF from the K3, but as Elecraft states, it can be used on other radios as well. It does take advantage of the K3's RF front end, including preamps, filtering, etc. I would NOT hook an antenna directly to it! Spectrum analyzers are nice if you can afford one - many people can't. I have both a homebrew W7ZOI one, and a commercial unit. They usually don't have the sensitivity to look at typical weak HF signals, and they aren’t usually designed to demodulate anything, or at least not CW or SSB. Panadaptors/spectrum displays are really coming to the forefront of SDRs. In fact, I would argue the opposite of your comment. Some hams are using SDRs, or at least hardware originally designed as an SDR, for many bench applications. Spectrum analyzers, network analyzers, antenna analyzers, etc can be based on some of the better SDR hardware. HPSDR Hermes, HiQSDR, even Softrocks, have all been used in those applications. I'm not a "digitalist", nor am I an "analogist". I have several radios: RTL dongles/upconverter, K3/P3, KX3, SDR-Cube, tons of Softrocks, SDR-IQ, Flex 1000, SDR-Widget, SDR2GO, HiQSDR, HPSDR boardset, Flex 6500. I know I forgot a couple. I bought each for a reason, and don't disparage any of them. I did finally sell my Icom IC-720a, a workhorse for over 20 years. Except for the clack-clacking! I've just given talks on SDRs to two local Charleston, SC ham radio clubs within the last week (one tonight). I've been asked whether someone should buy a K3 or a Flex 6x00. To be honest, I told them if they wanted a radio to "use and rely on" in the next year or so, get a K3, or possibly a KX3. In about a year, the Flex 6000-series MAY be mature enough to change that advice. As Jerry Pournelle used to say in Byte Magazine: RSN (Real Soon Now). I want to see more than just tiny little slices at a time. For contests, I want to not only see how the present band looks, but hopefully multiple bands, so I can see how propagation is moving. No, I'm not a very active contester, that's just one example. I LOVE the K3/P3, and have used them on CW for Field day the last three years. The Flex (any Flex) just isn't ready for that. I'm not an EE, just someone who has played with leading-edge amateur radio for 45+ years. I was involved in the first licensed ATV repeater (WR4AAG), packet radio development, spread spectrum, a little LF, and now SDR. I know how to burn my fingers with an iron. In summary: learn about Direct Digital Conversion (Digital Down Conversion) (DDC - whatever), look it up. Read about it. Don't stick you head in the sand, or you too may be carrying around one of those ancient Motorola 2M FM rigs with tubes in a Yaesu/Kenwood/Wouxun world. There are definitely pitfalls to DDC/DUC radios. But, there are several reasons why every "cell phone" has an SDR inside. Sorry for the length. To each his/her own. 73, Terry, WB4JFI -----Original Message----- From: Fred Jensen Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:33 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and whats next from Elecraft I could use some education here please: What is the advantage of sampling directly off the antenna? I'm surmising that's what is meant by "real SDR" vs "hybrid SDR". I don't know if 32-bit ADC's existed when the K3 was being designed, but Elecraft settled on the hybrid superhet analog 1st IF/digital 2nd IF for at least one reason and probably many. The dynamic range of signal amplitudes at my coax connector across the 0 to 30MHz spectrum has got to be huge, even after LORAN-C shut down. Is there really any benefit to having that broad a spectrum with that large an amplitude range in the number soup? If you want to observe that spectrum, wouldn't it be better to use a spectrum analyzer and save your communications receiver to be optimized to deal with the tiny little slices we want 99.999% of the time? If the K3 sampled at the 8MHz 1st IF, after the analog roofing filters [i.e. RF amp and 1st mixer only], would it make the K3 a "real SDR" in the eyes of those who don't see it that way now? I'm serious about the "education" part, this "Is the K3 an SDR" thread has been going, on and off, for more than a year. It seems that we have two ideologies going, "Digitalists" vs "Analogists." Unfortunately, debating ideologies qualitatively is rarely productive. My education is in math, my understanding of EE is the result of 60 years in ham radio colored by a math background. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org On 8/19/2013 11:38 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: > We don't have to worry about processorpower. The hardware is already > there and still developping. And Yes, sampling up to 6m is possible. > Apart from that, the interfacing from the machine to us humans can > certainly do better with some innovation (new ideas) as well. > Op 19-8-2013 18:07, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT schreef: >> >> Consider for a moment an SDR with no analog filtering at all. >> >> How wide would the passband be? Are we going to cover everything from >> MF to 6m? ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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Terry,
Thank you for the excellent write up. I enjoyed every line of it and hope to have access to such a reading more often in the future. Very educational and concise. ----- Original Message ----- From: <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]> Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and whats next from Elecraft > Warning: rather long reply follows. . skip ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: K3 and whats next from Elecraft
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In reply to this post by wb4jfi
Ufff. You aren't EE but you have give us a great article. All point that
future is SDR DDC because issues about DDC will be covered with processing speed improvements. Edu yy4gmj On Aug 20, 2013 12:58 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote: > Warning: rather long reply follows. > If you don't care, or have your mind made up, please skip this email. > Fred asked for some education, so here goes... I'm not an expert, but > these are my personal ramblings from what I think that I have learned. If > you don't agree, and the moderator doesn’t like this discussion here, maybe > we can find another place to discuss? Or directly? > > Elecraft has done a WONDERFUL job taming the QSD/QSE "mixers" in the KX3. > I LOVE MINE. I regularly tout it at meetings, including tonight. I think > that I "sold" at least one KX3 and one K3 or another KX3. > > Having said that, the K3 and KX3 are subject to imperfections, just like > any other analog circuitry. Yes, the KX3 uses a QSD with "switches", but > they have analog characteristics for an analog signal as well (on-state > impedance, on/off switch times, off-state leakage, etc). The op amps that > follow them aren't perfect either. There will be a little imbalance > between the I and Q channels, either in amplitude or phase, due to > component variations. Kind of like the old phasing SSB days. All these > imperfections add up in a complex way, and need to be dealt with to reduce > image issues, both on receive and transmit. The KX3 does a remarkable job > handling this. That's just one set of problems with "analog" radio > circuitry. > > The "holy grail" of SDR is to put the ADC as CLOSE to the antenna as > possible. The reason is simple: the sooner you get the signal converted > into the digital domain (represented by numbers), the fewer imperfections > from analog world circuitry will affect that signal. A digital mixer just > multiplies two numbers, for example, a "LO" represented by a set of numbers > describing a sine wave, and an input signal, possibly from the ADC. Within > reason (and decent design), the numbers CANNOT change due to component > imperfections, therefore you will not see problems with a digital version > of a mixer, where the resulting signal is sort-of, close-to, but not what > you want. Two times two should always equal four, not 3.9 once, 4.1 the > next time, etc, due to component drift, or other issues. Filters are a > different issue, but still more consistent and reliably reproduced in DSP > than in the analog world. > > So, how can we get the HF signal right into the ADC? That is tough, > because the ADC itself has a limited dynamic range (and a generally poor > noise figure). Most SDRs use 12-bit to 16-bit ADCs, and sample from 66MHz > to 123MHz rates. Dr. Mitola suggests in a book that good HF reception > requires at least 130dB of dynamic range. IIRC 130dB works out to about > 22-bits of ADC conversion. 16-bit ADCs by themselves provide somewhat less > than 96dB, 12-bit ADCs provide slightly less than 72dB. So, traditionally > even the better SDRs needed some sort of filtering before the ADC - to > hopefully reduce any strong out-of-band signals. This may not work great > on some bands, like 40M, where strong MW broadcast stations often appear > just above or just below the ham band. > > There is a "trick" that is real-world, and reliable, that can improve the > dynamic range of an ADC, called oversampling, that provides "processing > gain". If you sample much faster than the signal of interest's frequency, > and decimate those samples (throw out every so many samples), you can > achieve additional dynamic range. I believe you gain roughly 6dB (or one > ADC bit) every time you decimate by a factor of four. > > Up until recently, extremely fast and deep ADCs were too expensive for ham > rigs, and it was hard to get more than about 20-24 dB processing gain. The > new Flex 6000 series has a 16-bit ADC that samples at 245Ms/s. This allows > them to have enough dynamic range to MAYBE not need filtering. Notice that > they do have filters built into the radio, that can be enabled or disabled. > Regardless, the main analog components in the 6000 series before the ADC > are only filters (which should contribute negligible distortion to the > signal of interest), and a preamp, also optionally in or out-of-circuit. I > think even Flex has their fingers crossed regarding true dynamic range in > the real world. > > Despite the comment on the Fun Cube Dongle Pro site, I doubt they have an > actual 32-bit ADC. Even lower-frequency ADCs, such as in sound cards, do > not achieve that level of success. In fact, I doubt that power supply > noise, PC board layout, and many other factors prevent audio-frequency > sound cards from achieving even the 24-bits that many claim. For RF at HF > frequencies, 16-bit ADCs are about as good as it gets - that we can afford > anyway. > > Don't get me wrong, a DDC/DUC-based radio CAN have serious issues as well. > Overload (poor dynamic range), bad noise figure of the ADC, not lining up > the sample values right (value overflow), and a host of other issues. > Filtering can be just as tricky (or more) in the digital domain as in the > analog world. And SDR hardware can be a pain to use and/or build. Anytime > a computer is involved, you are taking your chances. Hi Hi. Sometimes > knobs are just plain easier to use. > > Yes, there has been a lot of discussion about whether or not the K3 is an > "SDR". I personally believe that it is, because a significant part of the > SIGNAL PROCESSING is done in an executing software program, and that > program can be changed. Not as easily as loading a new EXE in Windows, but > it can be. Even though the RF front-end follows a traditional analog > superhet receiver design up to the second IF. In my mind, there's no > question that the KX3 is an SDR. It is similar in very basic layout as an > SDR Cube, Softrock/host computer, etc, in that it uses QSD/QSE "mixers", an > Si570, and a dsPIC back-end that is fully reconfigurable. > > I remember others here, including the author of much of the DSP code for > the K3 and KX3 has previously stated that they also believe both rigs are > SDRs. BTW, the Elecraft P3 IS A DDC RECEIVER, with a 14-bit ADC, sampling > at about 60Ms/s, and feeding an ASIC DDC chip, then a dsPIC chip for FFT > and other DSP work. Yes, it samples the 8.215MHz IF from the K3, but as > Elecraft states, it can be used on other radios as well. It does take > advantage of the K3's RF front end, including preamps, filtering, etc. I > would NOT hook an antenna directly to it! > > Spectrum analyzers are nice if you can afford one - many people can't. I > have both a homebrew W7ZOI one, and a commercial unit. They usually don't > have the sensitivity to look at typical weak HF signals, and they aren’t > usually designed to demodulate anything, or at least not CW or SSB. > Panadaptors/spectrum displays are really coming to the forefront of SDRs. > In fact, I would argue the opposite of your comment. Some hams are using > SDRs, or at least hardware originally designed as an SDR, for many bench > applications. Spectrum analyzers, network analyzers, antenna analyzers, > etc can be based on some of the better SDR hardware. HPSDR Hermes, HiQSDR, > even Softrocks, have all been used in those applications. > > I'm not a "digitalist", nor am I an "analogist". I have several radios: > RTL dongles/upconverter, K3/P3, KX3, SDR-Cube, tons of Softrocks, SDR-IQ, > Flex 1000, SDR-Widget, SDR2GO, HiQSDR, HPSDR boardset, Flex 6500. I know I > forgot a couple. I bought each for a reason, and don't disparage any of > them. I did finally sell my Icom IC-720a, a workhorse for over 20 years. > Except for the clack-clacking! > > I've just given talks on SDRs to two local Charleston, SC ham radio clubs > within the last week (one tonight). I've been asked whether someone should > buy a K3 or a Flex 6x00. To be honest, I told them if they wanted a radio > to "use and rely on" in the next year or so, get a K3, or possibly a KX3. > In about a year, the Flex 6000-series MAY be mature enough to change that > advice. As Jerry Pournelle used to say in Byte Magazine: RSN (Real Soon > Now). > > I want to see more than just tiny little slices at a time. For contests, > I want to not only see how the present band looks, but hopefully multiple > bands, so I can see how propagation is moving. No, I'm not a very active > contester, that's just one example. I LOVE the K3/P3, and have used them > on CW for Field day the last three years. The Flex (any Flex) just isn't > ready for that. > > I'm not an EE, just someone who has played with leading-edge amateur radio > for 45+ years. I was involved in the first licensed ATV repeater (WR4AAG), > packet radio development, spread spectrum, a little LF, and now SDR. I > know how to burn my fingers with an iron. > > In summary: learn about Direct Digital Conversion (Digital Down > Conversion) (DDC - whatever), look it up. Read about it. Don't stick you > head in the sand, or you too may be carrying around one of those ancient > Motorola 2M FM rigs with tubes in a Yaesu/Kenwood/Wouxun world. There are > definitely pitfalls to DDC/DUC radios. But, there are several reasons why > every "cell phone" has an SDR inside. > > Sorry for the length. To each his/her own. > 73, Terry, WB4JFI > > -----Original Message----- From: Fred Jensen > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 3:33 PM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 and whats next from Elecraft > > I could use some education here please: > > What is the advantage of sampling directly off the antenna? I'm > surmising that's what is meant by "real SDR" vs "hybrid SDR". I don't > know if 32-bit ADC's existed when the K3 was being designed, but > Elecraft settled on the hybrid superhet analog 1st IF/digital 2nd IF for > at least one reason and probably many. > > The dynamic range of signal amplitudes at my coax connector across the 0 > to 30MHz spectrum has got to be huge, even after LORAN-C shut down. Is > there really any benefit to having that broad a spectrum with that large > an amplitude range in the number soup? > > If you want to observe that spectrum, wouldn't it be better to use a > spectrum analyzer and save your communications receiver to be optimized > to deal with the tiny little slices we want 99.999% of the time? > > If the K3 sampled at the 8MHz 1st IF, after the analog roofing filters > [i.e. RF amp and 1st mixer only], would it make the K3 a "real SDR" in > the eyes of those who don't see it that way now? > > I'm serious about the "education" part, this "Is the K3 an SDR" thread > has been going, on and off, for more than a year. It seems that we have > two ideologies going, "Digitalists" vs "Analogists." Unfortunately, > debating ideologies qualitatively is rarely productive. > > My education is in math, my understanding of EE is the result of 60 > years in ham radio colored by a math background. > > 73, > > Fred K6DGW > - Northern California Contest Club > - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 > - www.cqp.org > > On 8/19/2013 11:38 AM, Arie Kleingeld PA3A wrote: > > We don't have to worry about processorpower. The hardware is already >> there and still developping. And Yes, sampling up to 6m is possible. >> Apart from that, the interfacing from the machine to us humans can >> certainly do better with some innovation (new ideas) as well. >> > > Op 19-8-2013 18:07, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT schreef: >> >>> >>> Consider for a moment an SDR with no analog filtering at all. >>> >>> How wide would the passband be? Are we going to cover everything from >>> MF to 6m? >>> >> > > ______________________________**______________________________**__ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________**______________________________**__ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecraft<http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htm<http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm> > Post: mailto:[hidden email].**net <[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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