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K3: listening to both rcvrs

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Cloud Runner-3

K3: listening to both rcvrs

for what it may be worth...

For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in such a way that I have a balance control with the audio from the two radios. I call it a mixing control. I find that "optimum" is achieved when the full strength audio is in one ear, and that same audio is present, but weak in the other ear. I reason that when the audio goes to one ear only, the content must get to the other hemisphere of the brain within brain circuitry. When it is routed to both ears, now both hemispheres get the information for interpretation at the same time. Making it strong in one ear and weak in the other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.

and so, Wayne...

I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing to a panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which the operator can select either complete channel isolation, or both channels to both ears, but with one ear X DB down from the other. (I can't say how much down is best,but I find that it is enough when I can barely notice it. All of a sudden copy is MUCH easier). Give it a thought because of the above, I, at least, am quite convinced after a lot of usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.

with much appreciation for this fine radio,

73, Fd - KT5X

K2 # 0700

K3 # 0144

Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio
from the other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip
and the ring of your headphones and adjust it for the level
of pollution you need.

There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
crosstalk into the DSP process.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of cloud runner
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:03 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
> for what it may be worth...
>
> For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in such
> a way that I have a balance control with the audio from the
> two radios. I call it a mixing control. I find that
> "optimum" is achieved when the full strength audio is in one
> ear, and that same audio is present, but weak in the other
> ear. I reason that when the audio goes to one ear only, the
> content must get to the other hemisphere of the brain within
> brain circuitry. When it is routed to both ears, now both
> hemispheres get the information for interpretation at the
> same time. Making it strong in one ear and weak in the
> other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which
> rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.
>
> and so, Wayne...
>
> I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing
> to a panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which
> the operator can select either complete channel isolation, or
> both channels to both ears, but with one ear X DB down from
> the other. (I can't say how much down is best,but I find
> that it is enough when I can barely notice it. All of a
> sudden copy is MUCH easier). Give it a thought because of
> the above, I, at least, am quite convinced after a lot of
> usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better
> arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.
>
> with much appreciation for this fine radio,
>
> 73, Fd - KT5X
>
> K2 # 0700
> K3 # 0144
>

Jim Garland

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

Joe,
Your comment strikes me as unnecessarily negative. (Pollute? Crosstalk?) I
thought Fred's suggestion, coming as it does from a very experienced CW
contester, makes a lot of sense.

73,

Jim W8ZR

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:09 AM
> To: 'cloud runner'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
> If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio
> from the other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip
> and the ring of your headphones and adjust it for the level
> of pollution you need.
>
> There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
> crosstalk into the DSP process.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of cloud runner
> > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:03 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
> >
> >
> > for what it may be worth...
> >
> > For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in such
> > a way that I have a balance control with the audio from the
> > two radios. I call it a mixing control. I find that
> > "optimum" is achieved when the full strength audio is in one
> > ear, and that same audio is present, but weak in the other
> > ear. I reason that when the audio goes to one ear only, the
> > content must get to the other hemisphere of the brain within
> > brain circuitry. When it is routed to both ears, now both
> > hemispheres get the information for interpretation at the
> > same time. Making it strong in one ear and weak in the
> > other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which
> > rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.
> >
> > and so, Wayne...
> >
> > I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing
> > to a panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which
> > the operator can select either complete channel isolation, or
> > both channels to both ears, but with one ear X DB down from
> > the other. (I can't say how much down is best,but I find
> > that it is enough when I can barely notice it. All of a
> > sudden copy is MUCH easier). Give it a thought because of
> > the above, I, at least, am quite convinced after a lot of
> > usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better
> > arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.
> >
> > with much appreciation for this fine radio,
> >
> > 73, Fd - KT5X
> >
> > K2 # 0700
> > K3 # 0144
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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nz8j

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

I find "pollution" of the opposite receiver (unusual way of describing
it) to be very beneficial when listening to a dx station and the pileup.
Strange as it may seem, it really helps me separate the dx station from
the callers.
73
Tim
NZ8J

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:09 PM
To: 'cloud runner'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs

If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio
from the other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip
and the ring of your headphones and adjust it for the level
of pollution you need.

There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
crosstalk into the DSP process.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Mike Cox

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

Mixing BOTH receivers into BOTH ears is not the same and is simply summing the noise, effectively erasing the advantage of the DX operating a split frequency!

I can't speak for SO2R contest operation but I've been using a dual receiver setup for DXing for many years. I initially used separate receivers and an external audio mixer, replaced by a TS-950SDX, followed by an Orion and now the K3. The 950 and Orion both allow a mix of the main receiver in BOTH ears while maintaining the sub ONLY in the right ear. I USED THEM THIS WAY!

My mental image of this setup is of having the DX station in the "middle of my head" while the pileup remains "outside of my head" (only on the right side). Having the bedlam of the pileup "outside of my head" makes it easier to ignore this "noise" at the times when I am concentrating on the DX station's transmissions. There is much less need to actually decipher signals in the pileup but only to recognize that you are listening to the station that the DX is currently working as you are hunting for his current QSX frequency. I found this feature to greatly improve my ability to decipher a weak DX station while simultaneously following the bedlam of the (split frequency) pileup. As I recall, the 950 also allowed the main to mix at a reduced level into the other ear which didn't "center" the primary receiver in my head but still enhanced the ease of copy.

Using the K3 is great since the second Rx is the same quality as the primary Rx, unlike my previous two radios. Their secondary receivers were inferior to their main and prone to numerous distortion products which made the pileup bedlam even worse. Since getting the K3 second Rx, I've been trying to retrain my brain to copy the DX station by using just my left ear (signal outside of my head) but it's obviously not as easy as when the copy signal is in the "middle of my head". If code space permits, it would be really great if the K3 did this function internally as a user option. Obviously, Kenwood and TenTec also found this feature desirable. Otherwise, I will probably just build an external mixer box with headphone amp so I can get the primary signal centered in my head again.

Thanks to Elecraft for an already superb radio!

...Mike

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio 
from the other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip 
and the ring of your headphones and adjust it for the level 
of pollution you need.  

There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design 
crosstalk into the DSP process. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] 
[[hidden email]] On Behalf Of cloud runner
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:03 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs

for what it may be worth...

For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in such 
a way that I have a balance control with the audio from the 
two radios.  I call it a mixing control.  I find that 
"optimum" is achieved when the full strength audio is in one 
ear, and that same audio is present, but weak in the other 
ear.  I reason that when the audio goes to one ear only, the 
content must get to the other hemisphere of the brain within 
brain circuitry.  When it is routed to both ears, now both 
hemispheres get the information for interpretation at the 
same time.  Making it strong in one ear and weak in the 
other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which 
rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.

and so, Wayne...

I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing 
to a panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which 
the operator can select either complete channel isolation, or 
both channels to both ears, but with one ear X DB down from 
the other.  (I can't say how much down is best,but I find 
that it is enough when I can barely notice it.  All of a 
sudden copy is MUCH easier).  Give it a thought because of 
the above, I, at least, am quite convinced after a lot of 
usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better 
arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.

with much appreciation for this fine radio,

73,  Fd - KT5X

K2 # 0700
K3 # 0144


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Arie Kleingeld PA3A-2

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by nz8j

All,

Cross-over audio between the Main and Sub receiver is part of the menu
in a FT1000MP from 1996. (as a lot of you people probably know)
You can choose it in the menu how you want the audio: seperate,
mono-mixed or bit of stereo cross-over.
Absolutely wonderful.

There have been several other wishes on the Elecraft-reflector that were
implemented.
No need to block this wish by calling names of Elecraft people.

73
Arie PA3A

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio
from the other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip
and the ring of your headphones and adjust it for the level
of pollution you need.

There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
crosstalk into the DSP process.

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Jim Garland

Jim,

Unless one is using diversity with phase locked signals, adding
the uncorrelated noise from one receiver to the signal from the
other receiver reduces the overall s/n. While you may think my
use of the term "pollution" is unnecessarily negative, it is an
accurate description.

Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).
If one is listening to a desired DX station with a low noise
antenna and the pile-up with a wider filter and a noisy transmit
antenna, the S/N will be degraded even more.

The K3 receivers are better isolated that other "dual receiver"
transceivers. It would be a shame to degrade S/N by adding a
mix control when it is relatively easy to do so externally or
those who don't mind the hit in S/N.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dr.
> James C. Garland
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:19 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
> Joe,
> Your comment strikes me as unnecessarily negative. (Pollute?
> Crosstalk?) I thought Fred's suggestion, coming as it does
> from a very experienced CW contester, makes a lot of sense.
>
> 73,
>
> Jim W8ZR
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:09 AM
> > To: 'cloud runner'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
> >
> >
> > If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio from the
> > other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip and the ring of
> > your headphones and adjust it for the level of pollution you need.
> >
> > There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
> crosstalk into
> > the DSP process.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> cloud runner
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:03 AM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
> > >
> > >
> > > for what it may be worth...
> > >
> > > For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in
> such a way
> > > that I have a balance control with the audio from the two
> radios. I
> > > call it a mixing control. I find that "optimum" is achieved when
> > > the full strength audio is in one ear, and that same audio is
> > > present, but weak in the other ear. I reason that when the audio
> > > goes to one ear only, the content must get to the other
> hemisphere
> > > of the brain within brain circuitry. When it is routed to both
> > > ears, now both hemispheres get the information for
> interpretation at
> > > the same time. Making it strong in one ear and weak in the
> > > other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which
> > > rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.
> > >
> > > and so, Wayne...
> > >
> > > I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing to a
> > > panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which
> the operator
> > > can select either complete channel isolation, or both channels to
> > > both ears, but with one ear X DB down from the other. (I
> can't say
> > > how much down is best,but I find that it is enough when I
> can barely
> > > notice it. All of a sudden copy is MUCH easier). Give
> it a thought
> > > because of the above, I, at least, am quite convinced
> after a lot of
> > > usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better
> > > arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.
> > >
> > > with much appreciation for this fine radio,
> > >
> > > 73, Fd - KT5X
> > >
> > > K2 # 0700
> > > K3 # 0144
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Kok Chen

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

On Nov 16, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
> receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).

Unless the noise is correlated, the probability density function from
summing two random variables causes variances (noise power), not the
standard deviations (noise amplitude), to add. So the reduction in
SNR (assuming equal noise power) is 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.

73
Chen, W7AY

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Mike Cox

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

From my perspective of 20+ years of doing this, I stand firmly by my
statement that having the weak, noisy DX in the "middle of my head"
(both ears) makes it easier for me to copy in conjunction with the
pileup noise than copying with the DX "out to the left" with the pileup
noise to the right. Thats my observation. It works best FOR ME! It
doesn't mean others are the same. Remember that the brain is the
ultimate mixer and filter and mine adapts to pulling out the weak DX
from the noise best when it's in the "middle of my head". Yes, turning
off the sub to copy the main is a better situation for copying the DX.
That's not the issue. */I'm trying to simultaneously listen to the
pileup too! /* This works for me! your theories are fine for the physics
of electronics up to the headphones. It's what happens after the sound
energy goes into the ears that is my issue. My brain halves are still
connected to each other and separate ear feeds probably recombine in the
brain differently for different people! I'm only stating how I, as a
long time dual receiver user, can best use the second receiver in the
split weak DX pile-up situation.. Kenwood, TenTec and apparently Yeasu
realize this too.

Mike
DXCC #1Honor Roll from a noisy city lot

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> Jim,
>
> Unless one is using diversity with phase locked signals, adding
> the uncorrelated noise from one receiver to the signal from the
> other receiver reduces the overall s/n. While you may think my
> use of the term "pollution" is unnecessarily negative, it is an
> accurate description.
>
> Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
> receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).
> If one is listening to a desired DX station with a low noise
> antenna and the pile-up with a wider filter and a noisy transmit
> antenna, the S/N will be degraded even more.
>
> The K3 receivers are better isolated that other "dual receiver"
> transceivers. It would be a shame to degrade S/N by adding a
> mix control when it is relatively easy to do so externally or
> those who don't mind the hit in S/N.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dr.
>> James C. Garland
>> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:19 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>>
>>
>> Joe,
>> Your comment strikes me as unnecessarily negative. (Pollute?
>> Crosstalk?) I thought Fred's suggestion, coming as it does
>> from a very experienced CW contester, makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Jim W8ZR
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
>>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:09 AM
>>> To: 'cloud runner'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
>>> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>>>
>>>
>>> If you must pollute the audio from one receiver with audio from the
>>> other receiver, add a 5 to 10K pot between the tip and the ring of
>>> your headphones and adjust it for the level of pollution you need.
>>>
>>> There is no need for Wayne (or probably Lyle) to design
>>>
>> crosstalk into
>>
>>> the DSP process.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>>>>
>> cloud runner
>>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 11:03 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for what it may be worth...
>>>>
>>>> For my pair-of-K2's in SO2R, I have routed the audio in
>>>>
>> such a way
>>
>>>> that I have a balance control with the audio from the two
>>>>
>> radios. I
>>
>>>> call it a mixing control. I find that "optimum" is achieved when
>>>> the full strength audio is in one ear, and that same audio is
>>>> present, but weak in the other ear. I reason that when the audio
>>>> goes to one ear only, the content must get to the other
>>>>
>> hemisphere
>>
>>>> of the brain within brain circuitry. When it is routed to both
>>>> ears, now both hemispheres get the information for
>>>>
>> interpretation at
>>
>>>> the same time. Making it strong in one ear and weak in the
>>>> other, reversed for the other channel, lets me know which
>>>> rcvr I am hearing, while brain interpretation is at full speed.
>>>>
>>>> and so, Wayne...
>>>>
>>>> I think that there must be a firmware way either by routing to a
>>>> panel pot, or probably more simply in a menu, by which
>>>>
>> the operator
>>
>>>> can select either complete channel isolation, or both channels to
>>>> both ears, but with one ear X DB down from the other. (I
>>>>
>> can't say
>>
>>>> how much down is best,but I find that it is enough when I
>>>>
>> can barely
>>
>>>> notice it. All of a sudden copy is MUCH easier). Give
>>>>
>> it a thought
>>
>>>> because of the above, I, at least, am quite convinced
>>>>
>> after a lot of
>>
>>>> usage with a pair of K2's in SO2R, that is a much better
>>>> arrangement for copying CW from the two channels.
>>>>
>>>> with much appreciation for this fine radio,
>>>>
>>>> 73, Fd - KT5X
>>>>
>>>> K2 # 0700
>>>> K3 # 0144
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Post to: [hidden email]
>>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>

Vic K2VCO

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> The K3 receivers are better isolated that other "dual receiver"
> transceivers. It would be a shame to degrade S/N by adding a
> mix control when it is relatively easy to do so externally or
> those who don't mind the hit in S/N.

I just tested an experimental feature (I hope I won't be shot for
revealing this) which allows you (among other things) to put the main
receiver audio into both ears and the sub receiver into one.

There is no question that this made it possible to copy a weak DX
station much better while still listening to the pileup.

Please note that Elecraft has/have not indicated that they will
implement it or if so, when.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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daleputnam

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

That feature would be desireable for me...

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:57:19 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
> CC: [hidden email]
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> > The K3 receivers are better isolated that other "dual receiver"
> > transceivers. It would be a shame to degrade S/N by adding a
> > mix control when it is relatively easy to do so externally or
> > those who don't mind the hit in S/N.
>
> I just tested an experimental feature (I hope I won't be shot for
> revealing this) which allows you (among other things) to put the main
> receiver audio into both ears and the sub receiver into one.
>
> There is no question that this made it possible to copy a weak DX
> station much better while still listening to the pileup.
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-3

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Kok Chen

> So the reduction in SNR (assuming equal noise power) is
> 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.

That's the best case if the noise power is equal. If the
"other" receiver has higher noise power (wider bandwidth,
more interfering signals, etc.) the S/N reduction is greater.
Even 3 dB reduction in S/N is a big hit if the DX Station
you're trying to hear is at or just below the noise level.

It would be a shame to turn a top performing radio into a
mid-pack device by mixing the audio - because of some old
wife's tail. Let those who want mixing do it externally
so it doesn't impose a S/N penalty otherwise.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kok Chen
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:10 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
> > receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).
>
> Unless the noise is correlated, the probability density
> function from
> summing two random variables causes variances (noise power), not the
> standard deviations (noise amplitude), to add. So the reduction in
> SNR (assuming equal noise power) is 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

nz8j

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

I would assume if one didn't want to use the new features ( if they
become a reality) you wouldn't have to. I can't imagine it would be an
situation that would eliminate the current functionality in favor of
something different. Seems like it should please everyone if both
options are available.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 7:06 PM
To: 'Kok Chen'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs

> So the reduction in SNR (assuming equal noise power) is
> 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.

That's the best case if the noise power is equal. If the
"other" receiver has higher noise power (wider bandwidth,
more interfering signals, etc.) the S/N reduction is greater.
Even 3 dB reduction in S/N is a big hit if the DX Station
you're trying to hear is at or just below the noise level.

It would be a shame to turn a top performing radio into a
mid-pack device by mixing the audio - because of some old
wife's tail. Let those who want mixing do it externally
so it doesn't impose a S/N penalty otherwise.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kok Chen
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:10 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
>
> On Nov 16, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
> > receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).
>
> Unless the noise is correlated, the probability density function from
> summing two random variables causes variances (noise power), not the
> standard deviations (noise amplitude), to add. So the reduction in
> SNR (assuming equal noise power) is 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Jim Garland

RE: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-3

I don't dispute the idea that adding uncorrelated noise degrades the s/n
ratio. However, Fred's suggestion, as I understand it, pertained to
contesting, not digging a weak DX signal out of the background noise.
Typically, in a contest the problem is QRM from many other stations, with
the desired signal many dB above the receiver or atmospheric noise. This is
also the situation with much DXing, where the desired signal is plenty
strong, but is masked by the pileup.

I doubt that physics arguments really pertain to this situation (and as a
physicist that's hard for me to admit!). I'd think the psychology of hearing
is more pertinent.

In any case, an interesting topic, with many interesting comments.

73,
Jim W8ZR

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:06 PM
> To: 'Kok Chen'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
>
>
> > So the reduction in SNR (assuming equal noise power) is
> > 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.
>
> That's the best case if the noise power is equal. If the
> "other" receiver has higher noise power (wider bandwidth,
> more interfering signals, etc.) the S/N reduction is greater.
> Even 3 dB reduction in S/N is a big hit if the DX Station
> you're trying to hear is at or just below the noise level.
>
> It would be a shame to turn a top performing radio into a
> mid-pack device by mixing the audio - because of some old
> wife's tail. Let those who want mixing do it externally
> so it doesn't impose a S/N penalty otherwise.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Kok Chen
> > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:10 PM
> > To: Elecraft Reflector
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: listening to both rcvrs
> >
> >
> >
> > On Nov 16, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > > Assuming equal volume settings and equal bandwidths in the two
> > > receivers, the S/N will degrade by 6 dB (twice the noise voltage).
> >
> > Unless the noise is correlated, the probability density
> > function from
> > summing two random variables causes variances (noise power), not the
> > standard deviations (noise amplitude), to add. So the reduction in
> > SNR (assuming equal noise power) is 3.01 dB, not 6 dB.
> >
> > 73
> > Chen, W7AY
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Bill W4ZV

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Vic K2VCO wrote

Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> The K3 receivers are better isolated that other "dual receiver"
> transceivers. It would be a shame to degrade S/N by adding a
> mix control when it is relatively easy to do so externally or
> those who don't mind the hit in S/N.

I just tested an experimental feature (I hope I won't be shot for
revealing this) which allows you (among other things) to put the main
receiver audio into both ears and the sub receiver into one.

And this will be an optional menu configuration for those like Joe who may not want to use it. Win-Win for everyone, assuming Elecraft releases it!

73, Bill

Gary, W7TEA

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Cloud Runner-3

I mentioned this just the other day. By ability to copy the DX station is much reduced when only hearing him/her in one ear. I either have to crank up the main rx AF gain considerably or go back to one rx and use REV. I've used a variety of audio filters over the years--none is necessary with the K3 of course--but have not used an outboard audio mixer. Any recommendations on a mixer which would allow the main rx audio in both ears and the sub in the right ear?

Gary W7TEA

73,

Gary W7TEA K3 #1001, #5763

Greg - AB7R

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Cloud Runner-3

I had the same problem and its due to the 3db drop when dual is on.

I believe Dunestar has such a device on their website.

http://www.dunestar.com/model842.htm

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065

On Mon Nov 17 7:10 , W7TEA sent:

>
>I mentioned this just the other day. By ability to copy the DX station is
>much reduced when only hearing him/her in one ear. I either have to crank
>up the main rx AF gain considerably or go back to one rx and use REV. I've
>used a variety of audio filters over the years--none is necessary with the
>K3 of course--but have not used an outboard audio mixer. Any
>recommendations on a mixer which would allow the main rx audio in both ears
>and the sub in the right ear?
>
>Gary W7TEA
>--
>View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-listening-to-both-rcvrs-

tp1506160p1509772.html

>Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Greg - AB7R

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Cloud Runner-3

And of course it just came to me that the problem will still be there when DUAL is on regardless of
using the external mixer box or not. :)

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065

On Mon Nov 17 7:41 , Greg - AB7R sent:

>I had the same problem and its due to the 3db drop when dual is on.
>
>
>I believe Dunestar has such a device on their website.
>
>http://www.dunestar.com/model842.htm
>
>-------------------------
>73,
>Greg - AB7R
>Whidbey Island WA
>NA-065
>
>
>On Mon Nov 17 7:10 , W7TEA sent:
>
>>
>>I mentioned this just the other day. By ability to copy the DX station is
>>much reduced when only hearing him/her in one ear. I either have to crank
>>up the main rx AF gain considerably or go back to one rx and use REV. I've
>>used a variety of audio filters over the years--none is necessary with the
>>K3 of course--but have not used an outboard audio mixer. Any
>>recommendations on a mixer which would allow the main rx audio in both ears
>>and the sub in the right ear?
>>
>>Gary W7TEA
>>--
>>View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3%3A-listening-to-both-rcvrs-
>tp1506160p1509772.html
>>Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
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>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
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>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
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alsopb

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

Greg - AB7R wrote:

>And of course it just came to me that the problem will still be there when DUAL is on regardless of
>
>using the external mixer box or not. :)
>
>Greg - AB7R
>
>
>
And of course, it is still another external box one has to add just to
get any mixing. Mixing that I'd much prefer be in the radio.

73 de Brian/K3KO

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3: listening to both rcvrs

In reply to this post by Gary, W7TEA

Sorry, but I posted to the wrong thread last time. My comments belong here!

The Behringer 802 mixer is inexpensive and will do that for you (plus a
lot of other stuff)
Feed each receiver's audio into the Line IN jack below the microphone
jacks. The PAN control will be used to adjust the amount of blend you
want. In addition you will have level controls for each channel as well
as a single control for the headphone level and another for the main out
- lots of flexibility.

The downside of the Behringer 802 is that it does not contain a power
amplifier, but has more than adequate output for headphones - add a
stereo power amplifier if you need or want to drive speakers.

73,
Don W3FPR.

W7TEA wrote:

> I mentioned this just the other day. By ability to copy the DX station is
> much reduced when only hearing him/her in one ear. I either have to crank
> up the main rx AF gain considerably or go back to one rx and use REV. I've
> used a variety of audio filters over the years--none is necessary with the
> K3 of course--but have not used an outboard audio mixer. Any
> recommendations on a mixer which would allow the main rx audio in both ears
> and the sub in the right ear?
>
> Gary W7TEA
>
>