K3+microKeyer+MM: Realtek AC'97 feedback

[Eric Scace K3NA]

Hi --

   I'm seeking advice on a feedback problem.

   Scenario:
PC line out -> microKeyer -> K3 mic in (Note 5)
PC line in <- K3 line out.  (Note 1)
   Note 1:  microKeyer is bypassed so that stereo gets delivered to the
computer for archival recordings.
   Note 2:  K3 CONFIG: LIN OUT can be either "nor 001" or "=phones"
without changing the problem.
   Note 3:  To simplify and isolate the problem, MM is not running.
   Note 4:  More details about the PC and K3 firmware listed below.
   Note 5:  Can connect direct to K3 Line In (bypassing the microKeyer),
changing MENU MIC SEL accordingly, without affecting the problem.

   When I put the radio into TX (short the footswitch input on the
microKeyer), and play an audio file out the PC, a feedback loop exists.  
The severity of the loop depends on the K3 MON setting: low setting
(<<10) means no echo chamber.

   The only possibilities are the K3 is making the loop, or the computer
is making the loop.  I'm not sure how to isolate this.

   Anyone else see/solved this?

   It's not life-critical, but it means no audio archive for the ARRL DX
Phone contest if I can't solve it.

   Thanks.

-- Eric K3NA

K3 FW: 2.78
PC:  Shuttle SN41
Chipset:  Realtek with AC'97 drivers
Op sys:  Win XP SP3
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[KK7P]

Hello Eric!

>    I'm seeking advice on a feedback problem.
>
>    Scenario:
> PC line out -> microKeyer -> K3 mic in (Note 5)
> PC line in <- K3 line out.  (Note 1)
>    Note 1:  microKeyer is bypassed so that stereo gets delivered to the
> computer for archival recordings.
>    Note 2:  K3 CONFIG: LIN OUT can be either "nor 001" or "=phones"
> without changing the problem.
>    Note 3:  To simplify and isolate the problem, MM is not running.
>    Note 4:  More details about the PC and K3 firmware listed below.
>    Note 5:  Can connect direct to K3 Line In (bypassing the microKeyer),
> changing MENU MIC SEL accordingly, without affecting the problem.
>
>    When I put the radio into TX (short the footswitch input on the
> microKeyer), and play an audio file out the PC, a feedback loop exists.  
> The severity of the loop depends on the K3 MON setting: low setting
> (<<10) means no echo chamber.
>
>    The only possibilities are the K3 is making the loop, or the computer
> is making the loop.  I'm not sure how to isolate this.

I suspect (but do not know) that it is the PC mixer configuration.

If the K3 is outputting MON audio, then what appears at the K3 LINE IN
will re-appeer at K3 LINE OUT with some delay and +/- gain. If the PC's
mixer is active so that the PC LINE IN is mixed with whatever source you
are playing back, then you'll probably get feedback.

One way to tell is to remove the K3 and just loop the PC output back to
its input.  You might want to listen on an amplified speaker using Y
cable - or not, depending on how much you value your hearing :-)

73,

Lyle KK7P
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> I suspect (but do not know) that it is the PC mixer configuration.

I agree with Lyle ... the computer is almost certainly echoing Line
In to Line Out.  Right click on the task bar speaker Icon and
select "open Volume Control."  Select options | Properties | Playback
and the miser device for the soundcard to which microKEYER/K3 is
connected.  Look to see if Line In is one of the "Volume controls"
options ... enable it and click "OK."  Now, make sure the Line IN
level is all the way down and that channel is muted (note Line IN
may be identified by the color of its jack).  Update Router's presets
so the Line In is always muted on the playback side.

microKEYER does not have any ability to connect Line In to Line Out.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle Johnson
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:26 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Joe Subich W4TV; Elecraft mailing list; N1MM Logger;
> [hidden email]; Elecraft K3 mailing list
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3+microKeyer+MM: Realtek AC'97 feedback
>
>
> Hello Eric!
>
> >    I'm seeking advice on a feedback problem.
> >
> >    Scenario:
> > PC line out -> microKeyer -> K3 mic in (Note 5)
> > PC line in <- K3 line out.  (Note 1)
> >    Note 1:  microKeyer is bypassed so that stereo gets delivered to
> > the
> > computer for archival recordings.
> >    Note 2:  K3 CONFIG: LIN OUT can be either "nor 001" or "=phones"
> > without changing the problem.
> >    Note 3:  To simplify and isolate the problem, MM is not running.
> >    Note 4:  More details about the PC and K3 firmware listed below.
> >    Note 5:  Can connect direct to K3 Line In (bypassing the
> microKeyer),
> > changing MENU MIC SEL accordingly, without affecting the problem.
> >
> >    When I put the radio into TX (short the footswitch input on the
> > microKeyer), and play an audio file out the PC, a feedback
> loop exists.  
> > The severity of the loop depends on the K3 MON setting: low setting
> > (<<10) means no echo chamber.
> >
> >    The only possibilities are the K3 is making the loop, or the
> > computer
> > is making the loop.  I'm not sure how to isolate this.
>
> I suspect (but do not know) that it is the PC mixer configuration.
>
> If the K3 is outputting MON audio, then what appears at the
> K3 LINE IN
> will re-appeer at K3 LINE OUT with some delay and +/- gain.
> If the PC's
> mixer is active so that the PC LINE IN is mixed with whatever
> source you
> are playing back, then you'll probably get feedback.
>
> One way to tell is to remove the K3 and just loop the PC
> output back to
> its input.  You might want to listen on an amplified speaker using Y
> cable - or not, depending on how much you value your hearing :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[Eric Scace K3NA]

Thanks, Joe, Lyle and Tim (KT1D).  It was indeed the Playback Line In
control being un-muted.  Now on to the next problem.

The tip to update the Router presets was especially valuable!

on 09 Mar 03 19:27 Joe Subich, W4TV said the following:

>> I suspect (but do not know) that it is the PC mixer configuration.
>>    
>
> I agree with Lyle ... the computer is almost certainly echoing Line
> In to Line Out.  Right click on the task bar speaker Icon and
> select "open Volume Control."  Select options | Properties | Playback
> and the miser device for the soundcard to which microKEYER/K3 is
> connected.  Look to see if Line In is one of the "Volume controls"
> options ... enable it and click "OK."  Now, make sure the Line IN
> level is all the way down and that channel is muted (note Line IN
> may be identified by the color of its jack).  Update Router's presets
> so the Line In is always muted on the playback side.
>
> microKEYER does not have any ability to connect Line In to Line Out.
>
> 73,
>
>    ... Joe, W4TV
>  
>
>
>
>
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle Johnson
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 6:26 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc: Joe Subich W4TV; Elecraft mailing list; N1MM Logger;
>> [hidden email]; Elecraft K3 mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3+microKeyer+MM: Realtek AC'97 feedback
>>
>>
>> Hello Eric!
>>
>>    
>>>    I'm seeking advice on a feedback problem.
>>>
>>>    Scenario:
>>> PC line out -> microKeyer -> K3 mic in (Note 5)
>>> PC line in <- K3 line out.  (Note 1)
>>>    Note 1:  microKeyer is bypassed so that stereo gets delivered to
>>> the
>>> computer for archival recordings.
>>>    Note 2:  K3 CONFIG: LIN OUT can be either "nor 001" or "=phones"
>>> without changing the problem.
>>>    Note 3:  To simplify and isolate the problem, MM is not running.
>>>    Note 4:  More details about the PC and K3 firmware listed below.
>>>    Note 5:  Can connect direct to K3 Line In (bypassing the
>>>      
>> microKeyer),
>>    
>>> changing MENU MIC SEL accordingly, without affecting the problem.
>>>
>>>    When I put the radio into TX (short the footswitch input on the
>>> microKeyer), and play an audio file out the PC, a feedback
>>>      
>> loop exists.  
>>    
>>> The severity of the loop depends on the K3 MON setting: low setting
>>> (<<10) means no echo chamber.
>>>
>>>    The only possibilities are the K3 is making the loop, or the
>>> computer
>>> is making the loop.  I'm not sure how to isolate this.
>>>      
>> I suspect (but do not know) that it is the PC mixer configuration.
>>
>> If the K3 is outputting MON audio, then what appears at the
>> K3 LINE IN
>> will re-appeer at K3 LINE OUT with some delay and +/- gain.
>> If the PC's
>> mixer is active so that the PC LINE IN is mixed with whatever
>> source you
>> are playing back, then you'll probably get feedback.
>>
>> One way to tell is to remove the K3 and just loop the PC
>> output back to
>> its input.  You might want to listen on an amplified speaker using Y
>> cable - or not, depending on how much you value your hearing :-)
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Lyle KK7P
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>    
>
>
>
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