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K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

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KM5Q

K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

Somebody recently was asking if anyone has compared K3 NR with
external NR systems. I just did, again.

With my old analog rig, I used a Clear Speech speaker (it has built-in
digital NR). It is VERY effective at reducing any sound that is steady
for more than about 1/2 second, like stable QRN, and even pretty good
with less stable QRN. It introduces very little distortion to the
signal. Really an excellent product. It has since evolved into another
company's product, but I'm not sure which one.

When I got the K3, I tried the Clear Speech and found it redundant
with the NR in the K3, so I retired it and went stereo.

Then, NR seemed to improve considerably somewhere around FW 1.88. I
thought I'd never use the Clear Speech again with the K3.

Changes again ocurred in the NR with subsequent FW versions. I'm not
so happy with it. Even on low settings, it seems overly agressive.
There is no setting, even 1-1, that does not unpleasantly distort the
audio and make the volume unstable.

So I dusted off the Clear Speech guess what? It now works better for
reducing steady QRN than the K3. By "better", I mean I it pleases me
enough to want to use it. I have nearly given up on using the NR after
upgrades of the past 2 months or so. I think it got better, then worse.

All it needs to do on low settings is cancel out any sound that's
steady. That was done nicely with a $120 product in the 90's. What's
up, Elecraft?

Windy KM5Q
Santa Fe, NM
K3 #764

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Dave Martin-3

Re: K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

> Somebody recently was asking if anyone has compared K3 NR with external NR
> systems. I just did, again.
>
> With my old analog rig, I used a Clear Speech speaker (it has built-in
> digital NR). It is VERY effective at reducing any sound that is steady for
> more than about 1/2 second, like stable QRN, and even pretty good with less
> stable QRN. It introduces very little distortion to the signal. Really an
> excellent product. It has since evolved into another company's product, but
> I'm not sure which one.
>
> When I got the K3, I tried the Clear Speech and found it redundant with the
> NR in the K3, so I retired it and went stereo.
>
> Then, NR seemed to improve considerably somewhere around FW 1.88. I thought
> I'd never use the Clear Speech again with the K3.
>
> Changes again ocurred in the NR with subsequent FW versions. I'm not so
> happy with it. Even on low settings, it seems overly agressive. There is no
> setting, even 1-1, that does not unpleasantly distort the audio and make the
> volume unstable.
>
> So I dusted off the Clear Speech guess what? It now works better for
> reducing steady QRN than the K3. By "better", I mean I it pleases me enough
> to want to use it. I have nearly given up on using the NR after upgrades of
> the past 2 months or so. I think it got better, then worse.
>
> All it needs to do on low settings is cancel out any sound that's steady.
> That was done nicely with a $120 product in the 90's. What's up, Elecraft?
>
> Windy KM5Q
> Santa Fe, NM
> K3 #764
>
>

I was the one asking for a comparison, and I received two replies,
each one saying that the external speaker (two different brands) they
were using was an improvement over the K3's noise reduction. I
ordered one, and sure enough, it's better. It seems that any NR
system is far from perfect however. But now my external NR gives me
some relief from the constant grind I have. I had quit using the K3's
NR not only because it wasn't helping on SSB, but also because if I
had been using it, the AF gain had to be set so high that the next
time I powered up the radio I was blasted out of my chair because it
powers up with NR off, even if it was on before. So I'll use the
outboard NR until the K3's NR becomes satisfactory for me. If it ever
does, I'll offer my NR speaker to some unfortunate OM with a lesser
radio.

Dave W5DHM
Goshen, Indiana
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rlindzen

Re: K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

When I got my K3 in May, I loved the NR. Even if it didn't help with
weak signals on SSB, it certainly made listening more pleasant. With
recent firmware, however, I have to agree that NR is a bummer. It
always makes signals less pleasant to listen to on SSB regardless of
setting. Any way to restore the old performance?

Dick
KA1SA
#911

>

> >
>I was the one asking for a comparison, and I received two replies,
>each one saying that the external speaker (two different brands) they
>were using was an improvement over the K3's noise reduction. I
>ordered one, and sure enough, it's better. It seems that any NR
>system is far from perfect however. But now my external NR gives me
>some relief from the constant grind I have. I had quit using the K3's
>NR not only because it wasn't helping on SSB, but also because if I
>had been using it, the AF gain had to be set so high that the next
>time I powered up the radio I was blasted out of my chair because it
>powers up with NR off, even if it was on before. So I'll use the
>outboard NR until the K3's NR becomes satisfactory for me. If it ever
>does, I'll offer my NR speaker to some unfortunate OM with a lesser
>radio.
>
>Dave W5DHM
>Goshen, Indiana
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>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

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WS6X

RE: K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

In reply to this post by Dave Martin-3

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dave Martin
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 5:55 AM
To: elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

> Somebody recently was asking if anyone has compared K3 NR with external NR
> systems. I just did, again.
>

Windy, Dave,

The search for the best DSP NR system is at least as subjective as most of
the other aspects of rig comparisons. I have used many units from different
manufacturers over the years, and am still looking for the "perfect" one.

I used the JPS NIR-10 through several FW upgrades, two different versions of
the MFJ (too lazy to look up the model), the third production run of the
Clear Speech, the same after Heil took over, GAP and Timewave products, and
the internal wizardry from ICOM, Yaesu, Kenwood, Flex and Elecraft. One
thing is apparent to me . . . no single process is equally effective with
all modes and operating conditions. One algorithm may be clearly superior
today on 20 CW, but a few hours later, can't hold a candle to another
process on 75 M phone.

Most importantly, it is the "eyes (ears) of the beholder" which will
determine the usefulness of any product. For example, my first Clear Speech
outboard box to my ears was so horrible I couldn't stand to listen to it.
The digital artifacts were louder than the signal! Yet I sold that box to a
local ham who did extensive listening tests before he forked over the cash.
He never once heard any of the Luke Skywalker effects that drove me batty!

As a nearly exclusive CW operator, I have found -- or should I say,
according to my ears -- one of the very best DSP NR systems was in my old
FT-920. That was, and still is the standard I use to compare other NR
systems.

With my current radios -- K3 and Flex-5000A -- and for my operating
preferences, I find the NR to be quite useful. Over-all I give the nod to
the K3. I know many have said they can't stand it, but I use it nearly 100%
of the time. On 160 M, from my tiny city lot, with very high EMI levels, and
only a rotating flag for RX, the K3 NR had made the difference between QSO
and no QSO many, many times.

This is not meant to be a put-down, just a different perspective on the K3
NR's usefulness. For me, it's a life saver! :)

73,

Jim, WS6X

BTW: Dave, I lived in the Goshen area for 15 years. I suspect we may have a
number of common, "old geezer" acquaintances!

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hf4me

Re: K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

In reply to this post by Dave Martin-3

Maybe what we need here is a tutorial on the K3 Noise Reduction.

I am very new at this as I have only had my K3 for a few hours online and
there are a lot of settings for the noise reduction and noise blanker. I,
at least, am confused as to a starting point and what might work best on
what types of noise.

Is there a tutorial or explanation online/available?

73, Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Martin" <[hidden email]>
To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker

> > Somebody recently was asking if anyone has compared K3 NR with external
NR
> > systems. I just did, again.
> >
> > With my old analog rig, I used a Clear Speech speaker (it has built-in
> > digital NR). It is VERY effective at reducing any sound that is steady
for
> > more than about 1/2 second, like stable QRN, and even pretty good with
less
> > stable QRN. It introduces very little distortion to the signal. Really
an
> > excellent product. It has since evolved into another company's product,
but
> > I'm not sure which one.
> >
> > When I got the K3, I tried the Clear Speech and found it redundant with
the
> > NR in the K3, so I retired it and went stereo.
> >
> > Then, NR seemed to improve considerably somewhere around FW 1.88. I
thought
> > I'd never use the Clear Speech again with the K3.
> >
> > Changes again ocurred in the NR with subsequent FW versions. I'm not so
> > happy with it. Even on low settings, it seems overly agressive. There is
no
> > setting, even 1-1, that does not unpleasantly distort the audio and make
the
> > volume unstable.
> >
> > So I dusted off the Clear Speech guess what? It now works better for
> > reducing steady QRN than the K3. By "better", I mean I it pleases me
enough
> > to want to use it. I have nearly given up on using the NR after upgrades
of
> > the past 2 months or so. I think it got better, then worse.
> >
> > All it needs to do on low settings is cancel out any sound that's
steady.
> > That was done nicely with a $120 product in the 90's. What's up,
Elecraft?

> >
> > Windy KM5Q
> > Santa Fe, NM
> > K3 #764
> >
> >
> I was the one asking for a comparison, and I received two replies,
> each one saying that the external speaker (two different brands) they
> were using was an improvement over the K3's noise reduction. I
> ordered one, and sure enough, it's better. It seems that any NR
> system is far from perfect however. But now my external NR gives me
> some relief from the constant grind I have. I had quit using the K3's
> NR not only because it wasn't helping on SSB, but also because if I
> had been using it, the AF gain had to be set so high that the next
> time I powered up the radio I was blasted out of my chair because it
> powers up with NR off, even if it was on before. So I'll use the
> outboard NR until the K3's NR becomes satisfactory for me. If it ever
> does, I'll offer my NR speaker to some unfortunate OM with a lesser
> radio.
>
> Dave W5DHM
> Goshen, Indiana
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

Charly

noise reduction

In reply to this post by rlindzen

So far in testing, still going on, the best noise reduction is the

"u Filters" in the FT-9000D.

Charles Harpole

[hidden email]

> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 09:59:17 -0400
> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 noise reduction vs. Clear Speech speaker
>
> When I got my K3 in May, I loved the NR. Even if it didn't help with
> weak signals on SSB, it certainly made listening more pleasant. With
> recent firmware, however, I have to agree that NR is a bummer. It
> always makes signals less pleasant to listen to on SSB regardless of
> setting. Any way to restore the old performance?
>
> Dick
> KA1SA
> #911
>
>>
>>>
>>I was the one asking for a comparison, and I received two replies,
>>each one saying that the external speaker (two different brands) they
>>were using was an improvement over the K3's noise reduction. I
>>ordered one, and sure enough, it's better. It seems that any NR
>>system is far from perfect however. But now my external NR gives me
>>some relief from the constant grind I have. I had quit using the K3's
>>NR not only because it wasn't helping on SSB, but also because if I
>>had been using it, the AF gain had to be set so high that the next
>>time I powered up the radio I was blasted out of my chair because it
>>powers up with NR off, even if it was on before. So I'll use the
>>outboard NR until the K3's NR becomes satisfactory for me. If it ever
>>does, I'll offer my NR speaker to some unfortunate OM with a lesser
>>radio.
>>
>>Dave W5DHM
>>Goshen, Indiana
>>_______________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Post to: [hidden email]
>>You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>>Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>>Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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