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K3 on motorboat.

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Robert Sands

Re: K3 on motorboat.

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Robert Sands
K7VO
Olympia, WA

Phil Kane-2

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by k6dgw

On 6/9/2020 4:46 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Hmmm ... "Isotropic spherical?" "Proven to broadcast over 4,000 miles
> with 1 watt?" Actually, it looks like one of the driven elements of the
> Russian Duga ["Woodpecker"] antenna. $6K+ seems a little steep.

If it lives up to its claims, I would consider it as a replacement for
my ineffective mag-loop -- until I saw the $6K+ price tag. I have to
look over my shoulder (or my checkbook's shoulder) to even scrape up 500
bucks to replace my standby batteries....

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Barry LaZar

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I strongly disagree. How many compromises were made to pull this off.
You may use the laws of physics and math to design something, but unlike
physics or math, engineering is not as precise. that means there are
judgment calls made by design engineers. Physicists make judgemet call
also, but only in data interpretation and not design. Sorry you couldn't
be more wrong.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 6/10/2020 1:53:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>On 6/9/2020 3:54 PM, Barry wrote:
>>EE is an art and not science
>
>That is NOT even slightly true. ART did not put us on the moon or build the Mars rovers. Engineering is the thoughtful application of scientific principles and knowledge to solve practical problems. Without science as a base, it's little more than the infinite number of monkeys and typewriters producing Shakespeare. Nearly all practical designs involve some compromises. Great engineering is selecting (sometimes innovating) those solutions which work well for the particular problem at hand.
>
>73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 on motorboat.

The problem with this argument is the dichotomy of choice. The contrast between art and science was introduced into philosophical discussion several hundred years ago.

Today, the discussion might better be divided into three categories: Art, Engineering, Science with the recognition that many things real or imagined may include parts from all.

> On Jun 10, 2020, at 10:15 AM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I strongly disagree. How many compromises were made to pull this off. You may use the laws of physics and math to design something, but unlike physics or math, engineering is not as precise. that means there are judgment calls made by design engineers. Physicists make judgemet call also, but only in data interpretation and not design. Sorry you couldn't be more wrong.
>
> 73,
> Barry
> K3NDM
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: 6/10/2020 1:53:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>
>> On 6/9/2020 3:54 PM, Barry wrote:
>>> EE is an art and not science
>>
>> That is NOT even slightly true. ART did not put us on the moon or build the Mars rovers. Engineering is the thoughtful application of scientific principles and knowledge to solve practical problems. Without science as a base, it's little more than the infinite number of monkeys and typewriters producing Shakespeare. Nearly all practical designs involve some compromises. Great engineering is selecting (sometimes innovating) those solutions which work well for the particular problem at hand.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>
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k6dgw

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Speaking somewhat broadly, Science is basically a quest for
understanding of the physical world we live in. Engineering is the
science of intelligent tradeoffs in a quest to create "stuff" using the
science and technology. Many of the tradeoffs are technical. Others
are economic, ergonomic, environmental, legal, moral, ethical, and
political among others. Elecraft radios do not allow user adjustment of
keying waveshape and timing which is a tradeoff. Guaranteed optimal
on-air signal quality vs maximum user configurability with attendant
possibility of crummy signals.

About 30 min north of our previous home in Auburn CA, you will find
Grass Valley CA, epicenter of hard rock gold mining in the early 20th
century. The mines interconnect, are nearly a mile deep, have hundreds
of miles of tunnels, still harbor a huge store of gold ... and are
filled with water. A visiting friend observed that, with today's
engineering and technology and the current price of gold, one would
expect that de-watering the mine shafts and recovering the gold would be
very profitable but no one is doing it. At $1,100/oz, that may be
true. There is a tradeoff however ... "Where do you put the water?" It
is highly and persistently toxic to people, wildlife, and vegetation,
and there is a whole lot of it in the mines [a tradeoff similar to that
faced by the nuclear power industry as well]. Don't hold your breath
for a 21st century gold rush in N. California.

It could be said that balancing all of those tradeoffs includes elements
of art, I really don't know. I do know that being successful in the
tradeoffs is much harder than the pure science may appear at first
glance. [:=)

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/9/2020 10:53 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 6/9/2020 3:54 PM, Barry wrote:
>> EE is an art and not science
>
> That is NOT even slightly true. ART did not put us on the moon or
> build the Mars rovers. Engineering is the thoughtful application of
> scientific principles and knowledge to solve practical problems.
> Without science as a base, it's little more than the infinite number
> of monkeys and typewriters producing Shakespeare. Nearly all practical
> designs involve some compromises. Great engineering is selecting
> (sometimes innovating) those solutions which work well for the
> particular problem at hand.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Barry LaZar

Barry,

Well, when I was with IBM, my title was Engineer/Scientist, so I got
credit for both.

Engineers have the education and training to do research as well as
making those judgements during design that sometimes result in compromises.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/10/2020 1:15 PM, Barry wrote:
> I strongly disagree. How many compromises were made to pull this off.
> You may use the laws of physics and math to design something, but unlike
> physics or math, engineering is not as precise. that means there are
> judgment calls made by design engineers. Physicists make judgemet call
> also, but only in data interpretation and not design. Sorry you couldn't
> be more wrong.
>
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Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 on motorboat.

Don,
I worked as a design engineer and then transitioned to system
engineering/project management. In those latter days, I would receive a
requirement set from which I needed to make sense. I also had budgetary
issues that were built in, more requirements than money. And, there
might have been other conflicts. So, I know what e had to do, maximize
the number of requirements satisfied with in the set.

Yes. We engineers were pretty well trained, but when making
decisions on what had to go or be included it wasn't always a 2+2 = 4
which is precise. Mathematicians are precise and there may be only
answer to the equation, but that wasn't the world I was living in; I
could have many different solutions based on the requirements. This is
the point I was trying to make.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 6/10/2020 4:20:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>Barry,
>
>Well, when I was with IBM, my title was Engineer/Scientist, so I got credit for both.
>
>Engineers have the education and training to do research as well as making those judgements during design that sometimes result in compromises.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR
>
>On 6/10/2020 1:15 PM, Barry wrote:
>>I strongly disagree. How many compromises were made to pull this off. You may use the laws of physics and math to design something, but unlike physics or math, engineering is not as precise. that means there are judgment calls made by design engineers. Physicists make judgemet call also, but only in data interpretation and not design. Sorry you couldn't be more wrong.
>>
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>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Barry LaZar

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Phil,
I think I understand your point. I think I can live with it.
However, I never studied philosophy.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Phil Hystad via Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
To: "Barry" <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Sent: 6/10/2020 1:50:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>The problem with this argument is the dichotomy of choice. The contrast between art and science was introduced into philosophical discussion several hundred years ago.
>
>Today, the discussion might better be divided into three categories: Art, Engineering, Science with the recognition that many things real or imagined may include parts from all.
>
>
>
>> On Jun 10, 2020, at 10:15 AM, Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I strongly disagree. How many compromises were made to pull this off. You may use the laws of physics and math to design something, but unlike physics or math, engineering is not as precise. that means there are judgment calls made by design engineers. Physicists make judgemet call also, but only in data interpretation and not design. Sorry you couldn't be more wrong.
>>
>> 73,
>> Barry
>> K3NDM
>>
>> ------ Original Message ------
>> From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Sent: 6/10/2020 1:53:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.
>>
>>> On 6/9/2020 3:54 PM, Barry wrote:
>>>> EE is an art and not science
>>>
>>> That is NOT even slightly true. ART did not put us on the moon or build the Mars rovers. Engineering is the thoughtful application of scientific principles and knowledge to solve practical problems. Without science as a base, it's little more than the infinite number of monkeys and typewriters producing Shakespeare. Nearly all practical designs involve some compromises. Great engineering is selecting (sometimes innovating) those solutions which work well for the particular problem at hand.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>>
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>
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Barry K3NDM

Barry,

Sometimes we have to put on the Scientists hat, but when the rubber
meets the road and we have to come up with a product, we have to put on
the design engineers hat and say that how much compromise is required to
meet 1) customer demands, 2) budget constraints, 3) speed to first
customer shipment, 4) adherence to the initial specifications that have
been published.
If you can meet 2 of the 4 above, you have done OK, 3 is better, but
takes more effort.

I worked both as a design engineer and as a Product Assurance Test Team
Leader whose efforts were to test the product to conform to the
specifications or fix it - an alternative was to change the
specifications, which usually did not sit well with me, but was reality.

73,
W3FPR

On 6/10/2020 7:55 PM, Barry wrote:

> Don,
> I worked as a design engineer and then transitioned to system
> engineering/project management. In those latter days, I would receive
> a requirement set from which I needed to make sense. I also had
> budgetary issues that were built in, more requirements than money.
> And, there might have been other conflicts. So, I know what e had to
> do, maximize the number of requirements satisfied with in the set.
>
> Yes. We engineers were pretty well trained, but when making
> decisions on what had to go or be included it wasn't always a 2+2 = 4
> which is precise. Mathematicians are precise and there may be only
> answer to the equation, but that wasn't the world I was living in; I
> could have many different solutions based on the requirements. This is
> the point I was trying to make.
>

Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 on motorboat.

Don,
Yep. You do understand what I was trying to say. What a lot of folks
don't understand is that the compromises I make may or may not be those
that you would make, and if there were more engineers involved, there
could be that many reflections of what needs to be done. All I can say
is life sometimes was challenging.

Ham radio reflects a lot of the things you and I faced. For
instance, what antenna should be used. All the answers may be
technically correct, but try and fit a 80 meter antenna into a 20 meter
antenna. I know there will be a host of ideas on what should go in. Each
will be a compromise. Look to this reflector to see what I mean. Each
ham has his own idea of what needs to be done; it gets down to how you
interpret the requirement set.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Barry" <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: 6/10/2020 9:46:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.

>Barry,
>
>Sometimes we have to put on the Scientists hat, but when the rubber meets the road and we have to come up with a product, we have to put on the design engineers hat and say that how much compromise is required to meet 1) customer demands, 2) budget constraints, 3) speed to first customer shipment, 4) adherence to the initial specifications that have been published.
>If you can meet 2 of the 4 above, you have done OK, 3 is better, but takes more effort.
>
>I worked both as a design engineer and as a Product Assurance Test Team Leader whose efforts were to test the product to conform to the specifications or fix it - an alternative was to change the specifications, which usually did not sit well with me, but was reality.
>
>73,
>W3FPR
>
>On 6/10/2020 7:55 PM, Barry wrote:
>>Don,
>> I worked as a design engineer and then transitioned to system engineering/project management. In those latter days, I would receive a requirement set from which I needed to make sense. I also had budgetary issues that were built in, more requirements than money. And, there might have been other conflicts. So, I know what e had to do, maximize the number of requirements satisfied with in the set.
>>
>> Yes. We engineers were pretty well trained, but when making decisions on what had to go or be included it wasn't always a 2+2 = 4 which is precise. Mathematicians are precise and there may be only answer to the equation, but that wasn't the world I was living in; I could have many different solutions based on the requirements. This is the point I was trying to make.
>>
>

aj4tf

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

K3WIV is the owner.

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Barry K3NDM

Re: K3 on motorboat.

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Don,
I never got the chance to work as a scientist. It might have been
fun. I did enjoy doing designs to products, but there were times when I
was ready to change career field. :-\

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]>
To: "Barry" <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Sent: 6/10/2020 9:46:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 on motorboat.