K3 or SDR-5000?
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Barry
You can already do that with the free contest logging program from N1MM, you have the band displayed as a slide rule with frequencies and DX Cluster reported stations, just click on one and the rig tunes to it... 73 Dave ============ It would be very cool if some future generation of PowerSDR software provided a clickable bandmap overlay to the displayed spectrum from the K3. Functions such as quick qsy to any point in the spectrum and labeling of sigs with callsigns would be great tools for dxing/contesting. 73, Barry N1EU _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Hash: SHA1 I think he was looking for an N1MM type band map layed out over a real time PowerSDR pan adapter display. Which would be downright cool. A visual representation of the DX/contester's signal and strength. One thing that might not have been mentioned in the K3/Flex discussion is the need for a high performance PC. The $399 HP/Dell/Whoever "special" at Sam's Club or Costco just won't cut it. Dave G4AON wrote: > Barry > > You can already do that with the free contest logging program from N1MM, > you have the band displayed as a slide rule with frequencies and DX > Cluster reported stations, just click on one and the rig tunes to it... > > 73 Dave > ============ > It would be very cool if some future generation of PowerSDR software > provided > a clickable bandmap overlay to the displayed spectrum from the K3. > Functions such as quick qsy to any point in the spectrum and labeling of > sigs with callsigns would be great tools for dxing/contesting. > > 73, > Barry N1EU - -- R. Kevin Stover, ACØH -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHbmj411jxjloa2wsRAiHOAKDM8EACegIjvTC/SWa4vdBOcXvaOACgpzPr fTYiw4EKgHscCAT4TKRjSrY= =pSoN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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I think Dave is overstating the computing power you need for a Flex.
Computing power is pretty cheap these days, and getting cheaper all the time. You may be able to do just fine with the $399 machine he mentions. In fact, for under $425 you can get a dual-core AMD Athlon X2 4000+ with 1GB DDR2 RAM from BestBuy. That machine will not only run your Flex-5000A, but you will also be able to surf the web, read your email, run your contest logging program all at the same time with plenty of extra processing power to spare. Really folks, computing power is not an issue these day. In fact, I would guess that a large percentage of hams already have more than enough computing power already sitting in the shack. There continue to be a lot of misconceptions about SDR radios. There is an earlier thread about K3 vs. Flex-5000A in the Elecraft reflector archives from October 2007. Search "5000A" and you should find them. They are worth reading, as they go into some depth about the issues, questions and misconceptions that keep coming up. 73, Rich W1EZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Kevin Stover" <[hidden email]> To: "Dave G4AON" <[hidden email]> Cc: <[hidden email]> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 or SDR-5000? > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I think he was looking for an N1MM type band map layed out over a real > time PowerSDR pan adapter display. Which would be downright cool. A > visual representation of the DX/contester's signal and strength. > > One thing that might not have been mentioned in the K3/Flex discussion > is the need for a high performance PC. The $399 HP/Dell/Whoever > "special" at Sam's Club or Costco just won't cut it. > > Dave G4AON wrote: >> Barry >> >> You can already do that with the free contest logging program from N1MM, >> you have the band displayed as a slide rule with frequencies and DX >> Cluster reported stations, just click on one and the rig tunes to it... >> >> 73 Dave >> ============ >> It would be very cool if some future generation of PowerSDR software >> provided >> a clickable bandmap overlay to the displayed spectrum from the K3. >> Functions such as quick qsy to any point in the spectrum and labeling of >> sigs with callsigns would be great tools for dxing/contesting. >> >> 73, >> Barry N1EU > > > - -- > R. Kevin Stover, ACØH > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHbmj411jxjloa2wsRAiHOAKDM8EACegIjvTC/SWa4vdBOcXvaOACgpzPr > fTYiw4EKgHscCAT4TKRjSrY= > =pSoN > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by ac0h
Kevin has got it right. Additionally, you could readily see new dx on the band as spectral blips that aren't already identified with a callsign.
Since N1MM Logger is open source software, this pie-in-the-sky software is probably do-able as a module added to the N1MM package - a vertically oriented spectrum that would parallel the bandmap and move/resize in tandem with it. That would sure sell a bunch of K3's (as if they were sitting on the shelf already . . . . ;-) 73, Barry N1EU <quote author="R. Kevin Stover"> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I think he was looking for an N1MM type band map layed out over a real time PowerSDR pan adapter display. Which would be downright cool. A visual representation of the DX/contester's signal and strength. |
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In reply to this post by ac0h
This is not accurate.
I am simultaneously running a FLEX-5000A and an SDR-1000 (w/Delta44 soundcard) with two separate instances of PowerSDR on an 'old' Pentium P4 3.0 GHz machine running XP-Pro. CPU usage with *both* radios running averages 33% (as viewed by the Performance monitor: Start > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Performance). The FLEX-5000A contributes about 17% and the SDR-1000 about 16% . 73, Dale WA8SRA R. Kevin Stover wrote: > .... > > One thing that might not have been mentioned in the K3/Flex discussion > is the need for a high performance PC. The $399 HP/Dell/Whoever > "special" at Sam's Club or Costco just won't cut it. > > .... _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Richard Smith-23
Richard Smith wrote:
> There is an earlier thread about K3 vs. Flex-5000A in the Elecraft reflector > archives from October 2007. Search "5000A" and you should find them. They > are worth reading, as they go into some depth about > the issues, questions and misconceptions that keep coming up. Agreed. I went and looked them up in my own archive from October, and found an excellent post by Bill Tippett, W4ZV, on the relative dynamic range performance of the two systems (10/6/2007). One thing that must be pointed out, however: When W4ZV posted in early October, the FLEX-5000A was quoted as having an IMD3 at 2 kHz of 96 dB. According to the current FLEX website, they are now claiming a 14 MHz IMD3 at 2 kHz spacing of >100 dB using ARRL measurement methods. This puts it 6 dB (or more) better than the K3 at 2 kHz spacing, assuming identical measurement methods. I think it's arguable whether even a 6 dB difference in IMD3 is meaningful when both are well above 90 dB, but there it is. Comments on this thought would be interesting. However, FLEX does not mention anywhere on their website what their BDR is, and I would have to assume that is because their performance on this metric isn't a world-beater. W4ZV's October post quoted a flat BDR spec of 123 dB, which is nearly 20 dB worse than the K3's 5 kHz spec. I would think that for blocking DR in a very strong signal environment like many contests, that 20 dB could be more significant than a 6 dB difference in IMD3. Only side-by-side comparison on the bench and in a real-world operating environment can say for sure, and I'm looking forward to that. Bill / W5WVO K3 in Febrary 2008 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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> According to the current FLEX website, they are now claiming > a 14 MHz IMD3 at 2 kHz spacing of >100 dB using ARRL measurement > methods. This puts it 6 dB (or more) better than the K3 at 2 kHz > spacing, assuming identical measurement methods. I think it's > arguable whether even a 6 dB difference in IMD3 is meaningful > when both are well above 90 dB, but there it is. Comments on > this thought would be interesting. I seriously doubt that Flex can achieve IMD3 performance > 100 dB in any except a carefully controlled TWO SIGNAL case. With any receiver using DSP and a broadband front end all signals in the front end filter are applied to the analog to digital converter at the same time. In order to avoid IMD the ADC must be able to handle (and properly digitize) the absolute peak voltage of all signals present. That peak is more than the scalar sum of the average power of each signal - it is the vector sum of the peak power (peak voltage) of all signals including the instantaneous peak voltage of things like static crashes/etc. While the Flex-5000 may be able to handle two strong signals in isolation (and with their architecture 2 KHz or 100 KHz does not make a difference), what happens in the real world on 80 meters or 160 meters when the band is full of S9+20 dB "local" signals plus static crashes during a contest? I suspect the presence of the multiple signals will eat up the dynamic range in a hurry. The ARRL IMD testing methodology is seriously flawed when testing receivers with wideband front ends because it assumes 100% of the voltage that causes IMD comes from two "clean" and well isolated sources. In the real world when the "window" through which the signals that generate IMD can be viewed will accommodate more than two signals, ALL signals will contribute to the IMD. Understand that the two signals in an IMD3 performance test do not need to be the same strength - it is the combined peak voltage that drives the stages being tested (preamplifier, first mixer, post mixer amplifier, IF stages and DSP ADC) into non-linearity. It does not matter if that non-linearity is due to shifting the bias in a mixer or overflowing the ADC - both effects will show up as IMD. With an increasing number of DSP based receivers, we need a test (rating) system that attempt to measure the "total (peak) receive signal" necessary to generate a IMD products which exceed the receiver noise floor. This is different than either two tone IMD3 measurements at 2/5/10/20/100 KHz or a blocking measurement and is the only way to absolutely compare receivers with different design philosophies and different IMD "windows." 73, ... Joe, W4TV receive power" and front end bandwidth. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: > <snip> > > With an increasing number of DSP based receivers, we need a test > (rating) system that attempt to measure the "total (peak) receive > signal" necessary to generate a IMD products which exceed the > receiver noise floor. This is different than either two tone IMD3 > measurements at 2/5/10/20/100 KHz or a blocking measurement and is > the only way to absolutely compare receivers with different design > philosophies and different IMD "windows." > > 73, > > ... Joe, W4TV > > > > be made to work -- feed a broadband noise signal into the receiver's front end. The noise is notched, so that a specific frequency it is reduced many dB. Then tune the receiver to the notched frequency and observe the signal level. Since the IMD in this case is the product of broadband noise, the IMD will have noise characteristics. Measure the noise level in the notch and it tells you a great deal about the performance of the system in the real world. Analog microwave systems had hundreds or even thousands of SSB signals, spaced 4 KHz so linearity and low IMD performance was important. However, the signals were more or less of the same peak amplitude, so you did not have the case of several S9+60 dB signals and a few very weak signals. Still, the concept could have some merit in the receiver context. Lots of details to work out, of course. Jack K8ZOA _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO
W5WVO:
>One thing that must be pointed out, however: When W4ZV posted in early October, the FLEX-5000A was quoted as having an IMD3 at 2 kHz of 96 dB. According to the current FLEX website, they are now claiming a 14 MHz IMD3 at 2 kHz spacing of >100 dB using ARRL measurement methods. This puts it 6 dB (or more) better than the K3 at 2 kHz spacing, assuming identical measurement methods. I think it's arguable whether even a 6 dB difference in IMD3 is meaningful when both are well above 90 dB, but there it is. Comments on this thought would be interesting. The FLEX website has always claimed >100 dB...but so does Ten-Tec for Orion (101 dB) which has been measured by many independent testers in the 92-93 dB range. There are often differences in measurement equipment, methodologies, personnel, etc that cause such differences. This is why I pay little attention to manufacturers' claims and specs and wait for independent tests by ARRL, RSGB, Sherwood, W8JI, etc. Regarding 6 dB IMD...I would say that difference would be marginally noticeable. 2-3 dB is not significant and well within measurement error and sample variation. >10 dB is significant, which is the margin between rigs like the K3, Orion, Flex and the better up-conversion rigs (IC-7800, Omni VII, etc). I'll again state that I feel it is very disingenuous for Flex to tout their 2 tone IMD claim so boldly but not even mention BDR performance. It reminds me too much of Detroit automobile advertising... (Our Pinto has the same trunk space as a BMW 530). "The FLEX-5000™ is the Highest Performing HF + 6m Amateur Radio Transceiver Available at Any Price with a 3rd Order Dynamic Range Using a 2 KHz Spacing at 14 MHz Greater Than 100 dB*" * - Using ARRL Lab testing methods http://www.flex-radio.com/ Ten-Tec makes a similar since they measure 101 dB. (Also using ARRL methodology) "ORION II is NUMBER 1" IMD3 dynamic range: 101 dB typical, pre-amp off, 20-kHz and 5-kHz spacing. The SDR-5000, Orion and K3 are all excellent products but I wish manufacturers would give us credit for a little more intelligence than their marketing departments and advertising agencies seem to have. 73, Bill W4ZV |
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It's in German, it's rather preliminary but looks promising:
<http://www.ovc12.de/system/files/dk4yj_k3_mess_1.pdf> English translation: K3 #00067 showed the following: 14MHz band, no preamp, 400 Hz filter ------------------------------------ MDS - 136 dBm IP3 + 25.5dBm at 20 kHz and 5 kHz IMDR3 > 106 dB at 20 kHz and 5 kHz IMDR3 104 dB at 2kHz Using (more or less) ARRL Lab like methods. Hope to have more soon... vy 73 es Happy Holidays de toby PS: Mni tnx to Matthias & Horst for the measurements and test equipment. -- DD5FZ (ex 4n6fz, dj7mgq, dg5mgq, dd5fz) K2/10 #885 K2/100 #3248 K3/100 #67 DOK C12, BCC, DL-QRP-AG, JN58td _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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