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K3 remote over satellite internet?

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K3 remote over satellite internet?

Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over
a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others

I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT&T DSL internet line
(better or worse?)

Thanks for any input.

73 Bill W4RM

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k6dgw

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

I can come close. I currently operate W7RN remotely using our AT&T
Uverse Internet. It's 45 Mbps from the street to the router, and the
computer and Remoterig box run in the 18-20 Mbps down and half that up.
Ping time to the station is in the 40-45 ms range. It works fine [well
... nearly all the time, sometimes the I'net loses packets but that's
rare]. W7RN uses Teamviewer to access the PC that runs all the station
automation. Teamviewer exhibits some increased latency, annoying but
certainly usable, but that's not the remote radio connection.

I have never operated a radio remotely over a satellite link. I have
used such links [HughesNet] for computer-computer work. For file
transfer, web downloads, and even interaction with web sites [Amazon,
PayPal, etc], it is acceptable. For remote control of a distant
computer, it is nearly, if not completely, unusable. The space delay is
only about 27 ms or so, but there the net latency was in the 2-4 sec
range so there must be additional delays involved.

These experiences suggest, to me at least, that the latency of satellite
links would make remote operation of a radio very difficult if not
impossible.

FWIW: We live in a suburban neighborhood with lots of wifi on the
scanner. I put our Uverse wifi on the most occupied channel once [6]
just to see the effect. The speed seen by the Remoterig box dropped to
about 1.5 Mbps. Everything continued to work just fine. I've been told
that it will work with 500 - 600 Kbps.

73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over
> a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others
>
> I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT&T DSL internet line
> (better or worse?)
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> 73 Bill W4RM
>

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

The latency (delay) through the satellite will probably be a killer.
IIRC, ping times through a satellite link are > 500 ms (120 ms up,
120 ms down *times two* plus any time in the network on each end).

The question becomes can you handle ~1/2 second delay in control
response and deal with audio that is delayed by ~1/4 second each
way?

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/22/2016 4:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over
> a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others
>
>
>
> I'm interested to if this a possible solution to a AT&T DSL internet line
> (better or worse?)
>
>
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
>
>
> 73 Bill W4RM
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:
> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over
> a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others

There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much
"turn around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the
round trip up and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital
encoding latency. The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that
satellite systems aren't exactly speedy. :)

73, Jim K9YC

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

Jim and others,

I agree with everything that everyone has said..... That's why I was asking
about a good news story? Has anyone tried it?
Any real first hand reports?

The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do!

73 Bill W4RM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?

On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:
> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up
> over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others

There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn
around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up
and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency.
The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't
exactly speedy. :)

73, Jim K9YC

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Mitch Wolfson, DJØQN / K7DX

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

Bill,

There are *no *good news stories on using RemoteRig over satellite. A
couple of people have been on the RemoteRig Forum where things like this
are discussed at http://www.remoterig.com/forum/index.php and had tried
in vain to get it to work.

As Joe wrote, the latency is too high to make it work. To put it more in
numbers, the speed of light is (only) 300,000 km/s and the
geosynchronous satellites are in orbit at 40,000 km. Therefore, for the
double round trip that is necessary for the packets, you have a trip of
160,000 km. This gives you a latency of 533 ms. Then you need to add on
the normal ground latency that comes on top of this in the 200 ms range,
giving you a delay of about three-quarters of one second! Things get
difficult for SSB once you hit about 200 ms, so this just will not work
due to physics.

73,
Mitch DJ0QN / K7DX

Mitch Wolfson DJØQN / K7DX
10285 Boca Cir, Naples, FL 34109
Skype: mitchwo
USA: Home:+1-239-221-9600 - Mobile:+1-424-288-9171
Germany: Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436

On 22.12.2016 17:56, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

> Jim and others,
>
> I agree with everything that everyone has said..... That's why I was asking
> about a good news story? Has anyone tried it?
> Any real first hand reports?
>
> The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do!
>
> 73 Bill W4RM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
> Brown
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?
>
> On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:
>> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up
>> over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others
> There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn
> around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up
> and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency.
> The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't
> exactly speedy. :)
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

Thanks Mitch I think we can close this thread as I cant find any light at
the end of the rainbow.

73 Bill W4RM

From: Mitch Wolfson, DJØQN / K7DX [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 6:26 PM
To: Bill OMara <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?

Bill,

There are no good news stories on using RemoteRig over satellite. A couple
of people have been on the RemoteRig Forum where things like this are
discussed at http://www.remoterig.com/forum/index.php and had tried in vain
to get it to work.

As Joe wrote, the latency is too high to make it work. To put it more in
numbers, the speed of light is (only) 300,000 km/s and the geosynchronous
satellites are in orbit at 40,000 km. Therefore, for the double round trip
that is necessary for the packets, you have a trip of 160,000 km. This gives
you a latency of 533 ms. Then you need to add on the normal ground latency
that comes on top of this in the 200 ms range, giving you a delay of about
three-quarters of one second! Things get difficult for SSB once you hit
about 200 ms, so this just will not work due to physics.

73,
Mitch DJ0QN / K7DX

Mitch Wolfson DJØQN / K7DX
10285 Boca Cir, Naples, FL 34109
Skype: mitchwo
USA: Home:+1-239-221-9600 - Mobile:+1-424-288-9171
Germany: Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436

On 22.12.2016 17:56, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

Jim and others,

I agree with everything that everyone has said..... That's why I was asking
about a good news story? Has anyone tried it?
Any real first hand reports?

The specs don't always tell the truth, but most of the time they do!

73 Bill W4RM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 5:43 PM
To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 remote over satellite internet?

On Thu,12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up
over a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others

There are at least two issues. The most obvious is latency -- how much "turn
around" time are you able to tolerate? You've got to make the round trip up
and back to the bird, and that's in addition to digital encoding latency.
The second issue is bandwidth. I've heard that satellite systems aren't
exactly speedy. :)

73, Jim K9YC

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

The Clarke Belt is too far away, and the speed of light is
inconveniently slow.

On 12/22/2016 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:
> Does anyone have any good new story's in running a k3 remoterig set-up over
> a satellite internet system? Hughes Net, Exede or others
>

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Bob Nielsen-4

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I doubt that you would be satisfied with the delays (QSK is definitely out!)

73, Bob N7XY

On 12/22/16 1:37 PM, Bill OMara via Elecraft wrote:

k6dgw

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

Actually, anyone considering remote operation Remoterig, QSK is totally
out, not ever going to work.

73,

Fred K6DGW
Sparks NV
Washoe County DM09dn

On 12/22/2016 7:34 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote:
> I doubt that you would be satisfied with the delays (QSK is definitely
> out!)
>
> 73, Bob N7XY
>

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Doug Person-4

Re: K3 remote over satellite internet?

I know I'm coming late to this topic. But my experience with remote
operations over satellite is worth mentioning. I have tried every
possible variation of operating a remote K3 over a satellite
connection. It's not just the latency - it's that you can never
predict the network and you may get only bits and pieces and then
nothing for 4 or 5 seconds. The satellite that services North America
is pretty much over committed. They are being used for aircraft
internet now and as far as I know there are very few areas where
additional subscribers are even being accepted.

I did try it about 2AM local when the network is barely being used and
it might just be acceptable at that time. During the day - not a chance.

Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/22/2016 9:16 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Actually, anyone considering remote operation Remoterig, QSK is
> totally out, not ever going to work.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> Sparks NV
> Washoe County DM09dn
>
> On 12/22/2016 7:34 PM, Bob Nielsen wrote:
>> I doubt that you would be satisfied with the delays (QSK is
>> definitely out!)
>>
>> 73, Bob N7XY
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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