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K3 software utility needed

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Barry N1EU

K3 software utility needed

There are some very useful little applications being developed out
there by the K3 user community. I'd just like to plant a seed for a
potential new application to augment the limited display of the K3.
How about a simple application that would be a full-time display of
various K3 settings that aren't normally visible without pushing one
or more buttons? The parameters that I'd really like to be able to
see with a quick glance:

shift (numeric)
width (numeric)
power
compression
mic gain
sub preamp
sub antenna selection
sub shift
sub width
AF Limit
AGC hold
AGC DCY
AGC SLP
AGC THR

I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
along with other software such as logging software, panadapter, etc.
Again, this would be a display-only application, using up as little pc
monitor space as possible.

73,
Barry N1EU
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Mike Reublin

Re: K3 software utility needed

The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
application.

73, Mike NF4L

Barry N1EU wrote:

> There are some very useful little applications being developed out
> there by the K3 user community. I'd just like to plant a seed for a
> potential new application to augment the limited display of the K3.
> How about a simple application that would be a full-time display of
> various K3 settings that aren't normally visible without pushing one
> or more buttons? The parameters that I'd really like to be able to
> see with a quick glance:
>
> shift (numeric)
> width (numeric)
> power
> compression
> mic gain
> sub preamp
> sub antenna selection
> sub shift
> sub width
> AF Limit
> AGC hold
> AGC DCY
> AGC SLP
> AGC THR
>
> I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
> along with other software such as logging software, panadapter, etc.
> Again, this would be a display-only application, using up as little pc
> monitor space as possible.
>
> 73,
> Barry N1EU
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

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Phil Hystad

Re: K3 software utility needed

On Dec 10, 2009, at 6:26 AM, Mike wrote:

> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
> application.

Which is a very good reason for supporting the K3 as a network addressable
device. Each K3 should have its own IP address.

>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> Barry N1EU wrote:
>> There are some very useful little applications being developed out
>> there by the K3 user community. I'd just like to plant a seed for a
>> potential new application to augment the limited display of the K3.
>> How about a simple application that would be a full-time display of
>> various K3 settings that aren't normally visible without pushing one
>> or more buttons? The parameters that I'd really like to be able to
>> see with a quick glance:
>>
>> shift (numeric)
>> width (numeric)
>> power
>> compression
>> mic gain
>> sub preamp
>> sub antenna selection
>> sub shift
>> sub width
>> AF Limit
>> AGC hold
>> AGC DCY
>> AGC SLP
>> AGC THR
>>
>> I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
>> along with other software such as logging software, panadapter, etc.
>> Again, this would be a display-only application, using up as little pc
>> monitor space as possible.
>>
>> 73,
>> Barry N1EU
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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MontyS

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

If you want to share the K3's serial port, LP-BRIDGE does a great job. I
use Kcomm, PowerSDR-IF, EasyPal, Digipan at the same time (if a needed sound
card is available - I have 2 so far).
If you need more serial ports on your PC, I've found that PCI Express cards
are a good - though expensive - solution for current desktops.

Monty
K2DLJ

> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
> application.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>

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Barry N1EU

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

This problem has already been addressed by N8LP and that's why I
specifically mentioned LP-Bridge in my original post. The
availability of LP-Bridge is precisely what opens up the possibility
(and power) of using a simple display application like I described to
address the K3's limited display info.

73,
Barry N1EU

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Mike <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
> application.

> Barry N1EU wrote:
>> I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
>> along with other software such as logging software, panadapter, etc.
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Greg - AB7R

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Barry N1EU

Exactly...and it works GREAT for this exact purpose.

Other than the K3 Utility which is a necessity, I think LPB is the single most useful
piece of software out there that supports the K3.

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065

On Thu Dec 10 6:59 , Barry N1EU sent:

>This problem has already been addressed by N8LP and that's why I
>specifically mentioned LP-Bridge in my original post. The
>availability of LP-Bridge is precisely what opens up the possibility
>(and power) of using a simple display application like I described to
>address the K3's limited display info.
>
>73,
>Barry N1EU
>
>On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Mike [hidden email]> wrote:
>> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
>> application.
>
>> Barry N1EU wrote:
>>> I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
>>> along with other software such as logging software, panadapter, etc.
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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Bill W4ZV

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Mike-14 wrote

The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
application.

Which is why Barry suggested LP-Bridge, which allows multiple applications to address the K3 simultaneously:

http://www.telepostinc.com/LPB.html

Regarding a separate IP address for the K3, I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for that to happen any time soon. When and if it does happen, it would be more likely be on a next generation K4. Meanwhile LP-Bridge is a perfectly good solution, and many are using PowerSDR, N1MM and CW Skimmer running simultaneously on the K3. Note that LP-Bridge **does not** allow sharing the K3 with any other applications because of potentially corrupting firmware downloads (and that's a good thing!)

73, Bill

Bill W4ZV

Re: K3 software utility needed

Bill W4ZV wrote

Note that LP-Bridge **does not** allow sharing the K3 with any other applications because of potentially corrupting firmware downloads (and that's a good thing!)

Oops...should have said "K3 Utility" instead of K3 above.

73, Bill

Greg - AB7R

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Barry N1EU

One side note....I HAVE used the K3 Utility through LPB for the sole purpose of
executing macros. Though as Bill said you should NEVER try to do a FW update
through LPB.

-------------------------
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065

On Thu Dec 10 7:14 , Bill W4ZV sent:

>
>
>
>Bill W4ZV wrote:
>> Note that LP-Bridge **does not** allow sharing the K3 with any other
>> applications because of potentially corrupting firmware downloads (and
>> that's a good thing!)
>>
>
>Oops...should have said "K3 Utility" instead of K3 above.
>
>73, Bill
>
>--
>View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-software-utility-needed-

tp4145346p4145855.html
>Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: [hidden email]','','','')">[hidden email]
>
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>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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David Fleming-2

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Greg - AB7R

Hi Barry,

I'm working on an app similar to what you describe. It will be similar to K3-EZ, but instead of having all of the various options in a tab panel in one window, there will be a number of 'mini' apps that can each be displayed in it's own window. This will allow the user to pick which app they want displayed at any one time. I currently have a band stack, RX and TX Equalizer editor, and Memory editor working. Next on the list is a window with various configuation options like you described. I'm using an SQL database which will allow a virtually unlimited number of band stack registers by band/mode, memories, EQ settings, etc. I still have lots of work to do, but hopefully I'll have something usable in a few weeks. It will be available for Mac, Windows, and maybe Linux. Not sure how well it will play with LP-Bridge at this point.

David, W4SMT

> > Barry N1EU wrote:
> >> I envision using such an application in
> conjunction with LP-Bridge
> >> along with other software such as logging
> software, panadapter, etc.

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Mike Reublin

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by MontyS

I'll go look at LP-Bridge. Thanks for the tip.

Mike

Monty Shultes wrote:

> If you want to share the K3's serial port, LP-BRIDGE does a great
> job. I use Kcomm, PowerSDR-IF, EasyPal, Digipan at the same time (if
> a needed sound card is available - I have 2 so far).
> If you need more serial ports on your PC, I've found that PCI Express
> cards are a good - though expensive - solution for current desktops.
>
> Monty
> K2DLJ
>
>> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
>> application.
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>
>
>

Julian, G4ILO

Re: K3 software utility needed

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned VSPE (Virtual Serial Port Emulator) http://www.eterlogic.com/Products.VSPE.html .

Unlike LP-Bridge it passes all commands through to the K3. You can do firmware updates through it, though *not* while other radio applications are running!

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad

> Which is a very good reason for supporting the K3 as a
> network addressable device.

Network addressability is only a small part of the equation.
The K3 controller would need to be reworked to support multiple
simultaneous access to prevent a poll/command string from one
application from interrupting a multiple command string from
another controller.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 9:48 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: elecraft; Barry N1EU
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 software utility needed
>
>
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 6:26 AM, Mike wrote:
>
> > The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
> > application.
>
>
> Which is a very good reason for supporting the K3 as a
> network addressable
> device. Each K3 should have its own IP address.
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > 73, Mike NF4L
> >
> > Barry N1EU wrote:
> >> There are some very useful little applications being developed out
> >> there by the K3 user community. I'd just like to plant a
> seed for a
> >> potential new application to augment the limited display of the K3.
> >> How about a simple application that would be a full-time display of
> >> various K3 settings that aren't normally visible without
> pushing one
> >> or more buttons? The parameters that I'd really like to be able to
> >> see with a quick glance:
> >>
> >> shift (numeric)
> >> width (numeric)
> >> power
> >> compression
> >> mic gain
> >> sub preamp
> >> sub antenna selection
> >> sub shift
> >> sub width
> >> AF Limit
> >> AGC hold
> >> AGC DCY
> >> AGC SLP
> >> AGC THR
> >>
> >> I envision using such an application in conjunction with LP-Bridge
> >> along with other software such as logging software,
> panadapter, etc.
> >> Again, this would be a display-only application, using up
> as little pc
> >> monitor space as possible.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Barry N1EU
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Unless you are using LP-Pan for its panadapter functions, LP-Bridge
is probably overkill. The free Enterlogic VSPE port splitter will
create multiple virtual ports that share a single "real" port (USB
or motherboard) and allow multiple applications to access the K3
simultaneously.

Note, with multiple applications there are limitations ... the total
polling load can not exceed the processing capability of the K3
controller. In addition, each application must be able to ignore
responses to the other applications ... that is each application
may process the data (e.g., the IF; data) but unexpected data should
not be capable of confusing any application.

The most significant problem with multiple software access is the
case of multiple command strings. It is nearly impossible to make
multiple command strings work in a shared access environment due
to the probability that a poll from one application will occur in
the middle of a command string from another application.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:44 AM
> To: Monty Shultes
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 software utility needed
>
>
> I'll go look at LP-Bridge. Thanks for the tip.
>
> Mike
>
> Monty Shultes wrote:
> > If you want to share the K3's serial port, LP-BRIDGE does a great
> > job. I use Kcomm, PowerSDR-IF, EasyPal, Digipan at the
> same time (if
> > a needed sound card is available - I have 2 so far).
> > If you need more serial ports on your PC, I've found that
> PCI Express
> > cards are a good - though expensive - solution for current desktops.
> >
> > Monty
> > K2DLJ
> >
> >> The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port with another
> >> application.
> >>
> >> 73, Mike NF4L
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Julian, G4ILO

Re: K3 software utility needed

Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote

The most significant problem with multiple software access is the
case of multiple command strings. It is nearly impossible to make
multiple command strings work in a shared access environment due
to the probability that a poll from one application will occur in
the middle of a command string from another application.

Have you found actual examples of this, Joe?

If I send a multiple command string as one string containing multiple commands, I would not expect VSPE to insert another app's command in the middle of it. Therefore the K3 would receive my string, in the right order, with nothing inserted in it.

If an app sent a multiple command string as a series of separate commands then I agree that could happen. Are there applications that do that?

There is potential for conflicts, especially if applications change the K3 modes, but in practise most people will be using one logging app that does most of the polling and sets the mode and the other apps will be using a limited set of commands to provide some specific functionality. Trying to run HRD and another logger at the same time would be inadvisable, though.

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

David Fleming-2

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Barry N1EU

> From: Barry N1EU <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 software utility needed
> To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2009, 9:59 AM
> This problem has already been
> addressed by N8LP and that's why I
> specifically mentioned LP-Bridge in my original post.
> The
> availability of LP-Bridge is precisely what opens up the
> possibility
> (and power) of using a simple display application like I
> described to
> address the K3's limited display info.
>
> 73,
> Barry N1EU
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Mike <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > The problem on a Windows box is sharing the comm port
> with another
> > application.
>
> > Barry N1EU wrote:
> >> I envision using such an application in
> conjunction with LP-Bridge
> >> along with other software such as logging
> software, panadapter, etc.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

> Have you found actual examples of this, Joe?

Not specifically - but then I haven't looked for them.

> If I send a multiple command string as one string containing
> multiple commands, I would not expect VSPE to insert another
> app's command in the middle of it.

However, you can't do that if your application requires enabling
a menu (e.g., TX EQ), selecting a "band" (e.g., 50 Hz), reading
the current value, issuing a number of UP/DN commands, stepping
to the next "band", and repeating the process to set all eight
bands of TX EQ (or RX EQ). Any interactive process that makes
use of a menu is likely to "blow up" if the K3 receives a command
from another application.

Given the current interface, I believe any attempt to remotely
save/change anything that requires reading the display will fail
because of the need to pause to read the display and the chance
that another program will clash at that moment.

I'm not passing judgment on the "efficiency" of using an external
application just pointing out that doing some of the things that
have been requested may be a little difficult in a "shared" model.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian, G4ILO
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:53 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 software utility needed
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
> >
> > The most significant problem with multiple software access is the
> > case of multiple command strings. It is nearly impossible to make
> > multiple command strings work in a shared access environment due
> > to the probability that a poll from one application will occur in
> > the middle of a command string from another application.
> >
> Have you found actual examples of this, Joe?
>
> If I send a multiple command string as one string containing
> multiple commands, I would not expect VSPE to insert another
> app's command in the middle of it. Therefore the K3 would
> receive my string, in the right order, with nothing inserted in it.
>
> If an app sent a multiple command string as a series of
> separate commands then I agree that could happen. Are there
> applications that do that?
>
> There is potential for conflicts, especially if applications
> change the K3 modes, but in practise most people will be
> using one logging app that does most of the polling and sets
> the mode and the other apps will be using a limited set of
> commands to provide some specific functionality. Trying to
> run HRD and another logger at the same time would be
> inadvisable, though.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/K3-software-utility-needed-tp4145346p4146778.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Julian, G4ILO

Re: K3 software utility needed

It's a fair point you have raised, but I just did a few tests and it is possible to select and change menu values while a program is polling during normal operation. Clearly there is the potential for conflict - if you send UP or DN commands hoping to change frequency it will change the menu selection instead, just as turning the VFO will when a menu is selected. But as long as people are aware of this and use the utilities intelligently and don't try to tune the band at the same time as they are loading settings I don't think there will be any problems. Not enough to render such utilities useless, anyway. Obviously it would be easier if more options could be set using direct commands so programs don't have to put the K3 into menu mode at all to read or write settings.

Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

N8LP

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Barry N1EU

LP-Bridge allows simultaneous polling (GET) commands from 5 applications
at the same time with no limitations. The only possible issue is
multiple SET commands at the same time, which is an unlikely occurrence.
The traffic to/from the K3 is almost constant, regardless of the number
of applications requesting data.

73,
Larry N8LP

> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 12:24:57 -0500
> From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 software utility needed
> To: <[hidden email]>, "'Monty Shultes'" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "'[hidden email]'" <[hidden email]>
> Message-ID: <5D24E970C6EE496AB7E84818CD38DC37@laptop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> Unless you are using LP-Pan for its panadapter functions, LP-Bridge
> is probably overkill. The free Enterlogic VSPE port splitter will
> create multiple virtual ports that share a single "real" port (USB
> or motherboard) and allow multiple applications to access the K3
> simultaneously.
>
> Note, with multiple applications there are limitations ... the total
> polling load can not exceed the processing capability of the K3
> controller. In addition, each application must be able to ignore
> responses to the other applications ... that is each application
> may process the data (e.g., the IF; data) but unexpected data should
> not be capable of confusing any application.
>
> The most significant problem with multiple software access is the
> case of multiple command strings. It is nearly impossible to make
> multiple command strings work in a shared access environment due
> to the probability that a poll from one application will occur in
> the middle of a command string from another application.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3 software utility needed

In reply to this post by Julian, G4ILO

> It's a fair point you have raised, but I just did a few tests
> and it is possible to select and change menu values while a
> program is polling during normal operation.

That's true as long as the second program is only polling for
data that is available directly (e.g., FA; FB; IF; MD; etc.).
If, as in the case of some software, the other program is polling
for information that involves reading icons or special display
modes (e.g., the alternate display for VFO B), those polls will
cause a conflict.

> Obviously it would be easier if more options
> could be set using direct commands so programs don't have to
> put the K3 into menu mode at all to read or write settings.

That's the reason I raised the issue ... as long as there is any
data that requires "reading the display" multiple access can
be a problem.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Julian, G4ILO
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 4:21 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] K3 software utility needed
>
>
>
> It's a fair point you have raised, but I just did a few tests
> and it is possible to select and change menu values while a
> program is polling during normal operation. Clearly there is
> the potential for conflict - if you send UP or DN commands
> hoping to change frequency it will change the menu selection
> instead, just as turning the VFO will when a menu is
> selected. But as long as people are aware of this and use the
> utilities intelligently and don't try to tune the band at the
> same time as they are loading settings I don't think there
> will be any problems. Not enough to render such utilities
> useless, anyway. Obviously it would be easier if more options
> could be set using direct commands so programs don't have to
> put the K3 into menu mode at all to read or write settings.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222.
> * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
> * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
> * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/K3-software-utility-needed-tp4145346p4147907.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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