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K3: switching on click

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3: switching on click

I have external speakers connected through the headphone jack and have zero
snap, crackle or Pop :-) Just for grins, I moved the output to the line
out jack and did create the Pop on turn on. Without the external setup, I
do get an internal speaker pop, but nothing objectionable. With stereo
output to amplified stereo speakers when plugged into the external speakers
or the phones jack on the front panel, I don't get any POP. Therefore, to
remove the pop with the internal speaker, plug into the external speaker
jack or the front phone plug... I guess... ;-)

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Redmon
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 3:17 PM
To: Torrey Mitchell
Cc: 'Elecraft'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3: switching on click

Stephen, you make a valid point. I have external speakers connected on my
K3, and it produces a pronounced double click or pop upon power up. I would
appreciate a more or less silent power on sequence myself.

Bob K5SM

On 9/4/2011 1:41 PM, Torrey Mitchell wrote:

> I near nothing but the soft mechanical click of a relay before the
> audio appears at the speakers. Mine was bought and built in June 2011.
> 73 Torrey N9PY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Stephen Prior
> Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:13 PM
> To: Elecraft
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3: switching on click
>
> I think that this has been mentioned before, but the K3 has a
> pronounced turn on click through the loudspeaker. When connected to
> external speakers, the click is loud and out of character with the quality

feel of the radio.

> It would be a good idea in my opinion if the audio output were to be
> muted for a fraction of a second after the K3 is turned on.
>
> 73, Stephen G4SJP
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3: switching on click

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin

Mike,

If you are using amplified speakers, that difference is to be expected.
I use unamplified speakers, and all that is heard is a muffled couple of
pops - it is not in the range of anything annoying to me.

You are hearing the large value capacitor in the AF output charge up
(the capacitor is not as large in the headphone amp in the K3, and the
amp is a different one).

The K2 does the same thing - and at my workbench I do use amplified
speakers - yes, it can be annoying with amplified speakers.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/4/2011 4:46 PM, Mike wrote:

> The external speakers have a pretty loud pop at power on. The headphones do not. K3 3539.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
>
> On 9/4/2011 2:13 PM, Stephen Prior wrote:
>> I think that this has been mentioned before, but the K3 has a pronounced
>> turn on click through the loudspeaker. When connected to external speakers,
>> the click is loud and out of character with the quality feel of the radio.
>> It would be a good idea in my opinion if the audio output were to be muted
>> for a fraction of a second after the K3 is turned on.
>>
>> 73, Stephen G4SJP
>>

Rick Prather-2

Re: K3: switching on click

In reply to this post by Ramiro Aceves

I hear (or heard) the same pops so I started turning the speakers after I turned on the radio and off before I turned it off. Doesn't seem like a major inconvenience to me.

Rick
K6LE

On 9/4/2011, at 12:23 , Ramiro Aceves wrote:

> Hello Stephen and others
>
> On K3 turn on, I hear two clicks on the speaker before the display turns
> on (not the relay clicks).
> I also hear a click during K3 turning off, just when the display turns off.
>
> I agree with you, it is a stupid thing but they to not match with a
> superb radio.
>
> 73, EA4NZ (ex-EA1ABZ)
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: switching on click -- One wonders...

In reply to this post by John Ragle

I suppose the "click" - or in my case a "thump" - depends on the timing
of the "mute" signal from the controller and the value of the bypass
capacitor on pin 8 of the speaker amplifier. The chip manufacturer
recommends 10 uF for the bypass capacitor but I notice that Elecraft
use 3.3 uF in the K3. The manufacturer's data sheet shows:

Cb (uF) Ton (Ms)
1.0 120
2.2 120
4.7 200
10.0 440

The manufacturer's data sheet also calls for the time constant of the
input coupling capacitor and Ri+Rf (input and feedback resistors of
the amplifier) to be less than the turn on time set by Cb. In the
K3, I don't know how critical the ratio of input time constant to
turn on time is but the reference design has an input time constant
less that 5% of the turn on time while in the K3 the input time
constant is about 30% of the turn on time.

In addition, I suspect there may be some variation in early vs. late
production due to the change in the DC resistance of the RF choke in
the DC line feeding the speaker amplifier.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 9/4/2011 5:01 PM, John Ragle wrote:

> I run K3/100 Ser. No. 4103. It has a relay click on power on, but
> nothing from the speakers. Go figure...
>
> John Ragle -- W1ZI
>
> =====
>
> On 9/4/2011 4:46 PM, Mike wrote:
>> The external speakers have a pretty loud pop at power on. The headphones do not. K3 3539.
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
>>
>> On 9/4/2011 2:13 PM, Stephen Prior wrote:
>>> I think that this has been mentioned before, but the K3 has a pronounced
>>> turn on click through the loudspeaker. When connected to external speakers,
>>> the click is loud and out of character with the quality feel of the radio.
>>> It would be a good idea in my opinion if the audio output were to be muted
>>> for a fraction of a second after the K3 is turned on.
>>>
>>> 73, Stephen G4SJP
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

David Herring-3

Re: K3: switching on click -- One wonders...

Hi All!

I know we've milked this one quite a bit, but I do have a point to make that I think will frame this "power-on thump" issue in a little better light...

First off, I have K3 #3019 and there is a very detectable power-on AND power-off thump in the built-in speaker and in the cans. I don't have external speakers so I can't say about that.

BUT, what I wanted to point out is that this behavior, this power-on and power-off click or thump is widespread and not strictly a K3 problem. While there are others on this list with way more experience in the field of audio, I can say that in my younger days I was very much an audiophile. I can tell you with certainty that all the high end audio equipment I owned (and wished I owned!) thumped when powering on and powering off.

Outside of my own equipment, I have worked mixing boards and commercial sound systems which all thumped on power-on/off. Some loud enough to nearly blow your hair off.

I have even witnessed this in concert halls -- I'm thinking, as one example, of the Pacific Amphitheater one night in LA which very clearly had the power-on/off thump. I can think of others probably if I worked my brain cell really hard.

The point is that this phenomenon seems to be part and parcel of the powering-on and powering-off of solid state audio amplification. As this exists in the high quality and commercial equipment I've had the pleasure of working with, I don't feel it detracts from the K3. I think the K3 is actually in pretty good company.

I know that being common doesn't make it right...but it probably does indicate that most in the business don't regard it as particularly important.

IMHO if it costs more than a nickel to fix, I wouldn't bother. However I understand that others, perhaps with amplified speakers, are well within their rights to feel differently. :-)

Alrighty then...back to the honey-do list...

73 & Aloha,
Dave AH6TD

On Sep 4, 2011, at 12:25 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> I suppose the "click" - or in my case a "thump" - depends on the timing
> of the "mute" signal from the controller and the value of the bypass
> capacitor on pin 8 of the speaker amplifier. The chip manufacturer
> recommends 10 uF for the bypass capacitor but I notice that Elecraft
> use 3.3 uF in the K3. The manufacturer's data sheet shows:
>
> Cb (uF) Ton (Ms)
> 1.0 120
> 2.2 120
> 4.7 200
> 10.0 440
>
> The manufacturer's data sheet also calls for the time constant of the
> input coupling capacitor and Ri+Rf (input and feedback resistors of
> the amplifier) to be less than the turn on time set by Cb. In the
> K3, I don't know how critical the ratio of input time constant to
> turn on time is but the reference design has an input time constant
> less that 5% of the turn on time while in the K3 the input time
> constant is about 30% of the turn on time.
>
> In addition, I suspect there may be some variation in early vs. late
> production due to the change in the DC resistance of the RF choke in
> the DC line feeding the speaker amplifier.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3: switching on click -- One wonders...

> Outside of my own equipment, I have worked mixing boards and
> commercial sound systems which all thumped on power-on/off. Some loud
> enough to nearly blow your hair off.

I can think of a fair number of power amplifiers and mixing board
monitor amplifiers that include *delay relays* in the speaker lines
that leave the speakers disconnected for two to three seconds after
power is turned on specifically to prevent the thump (and potential
damage to speakers and/or hearing).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 9/4/2011 8:16 PM, David Herring wrote:

> Hi All!
>
> I know we've milked this one quite a bit, but I do have a point to make that I think will frame this "power-on thump" issue in a little better light...
>
> First off, I have K3 #3019 and there is a very detectable power-on AND power-off thump in the built-in speaker and in the cans. I don't have external speakers so I can't say about that.
>
> BUT, what I wanted to point out is that this behavior, this power-on and power-off click or thump is widespread and not strictly a K3 problem. While there are others on this list with way more experience in the field of audio, I can say that in my younger days I was very much an audiophile. I can tell you with certainty that all the high end audio equipment I owned (and wished I owned!) thumped when powering on and powering off.
>
> Outside of my own equipment, I have worked mixing boards and commercial sound systems which all thumped on power-on/off. Some loud enough to nearly blow your hair off.
>
> I have even witnessed this in concert halls -- I'm thinking, as one example, of the Pacific Amphitheater one night in LA which very clearly had the power-on/off thump. I can think of others probably if I worked my brain cell really hard.
>
> The point is that this phenomenon seems to be part and parcel of the powering-on and powering-off of solid state audio amplification. As this exists in the high quality and commercial equipment I've had the pleasure of working with, I don't feel it detracts from the K3. I think the K3 is actually in pretty good company.
>
> I know that being common doesn't make it right...but it probably does indicate that most in the business don't regard it as particularly important.
>
> IMHO if it costs more than a nickel to fix, I wouldn't bother. However I understand that others, perhaps with amplified speakers, are well within their rights to feel differently. :-)
>
> Alrighty then...back to the honey-do list...
>
> 73& Aloha,
> Dave AH6TD
>
> On Sep 4, 2011, at 12:25 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>> I suppose the "click" - or in my case a "thump" - depends on the timing
>> of the "mute" signal from the controller and the value of the bypass
>> capacitor on pin 8 of the speaker amplifier. The chip manufacturer
>> recommends 10 uF for the bypass capacitor but I notice that Elecraft
>> use 3.3 uF in the K3. The manufacturer's data sheet shows:
>>
>> Cb (uF) Ton (Ms)
>> 1.0 120
>> 2.2 120
>> 4.7 200
>> 10.0 440
>>
>> The manufacturer's data sheet also calls for the time constant of the
>> input coupling capacitor and Ri+Rf (input and feedback resistors of
>> the amplifier) to be less than the turn on time set by Cb. In the
>> K3, I don't know how critical the ratio of input time constant to
>> turn on time is but the reference design has an input time constant
>> less that 5% of the turn on time while in the K3 the input time
>> constant is about 30% of the turn on time.
>>
>> In addition, I suspect there may be some variation in early vs. late
>> production due to the change in the DC resistance of the RF choke in
>> the DC line feeding the speaker amplifier.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Rick Prather-2

Re: K3: switching on click

In reply to this post by Ramiro Aceves