K3 working on motorboats - possible

[Pete Lascell-2]

An inexpensive antenna to try is MFJ-2240 Mini-Dipole for 40 meters for $70.  It is made with two hamsticks and appropriate mount that mounts the two whips butt to butt with coax connection.  There is also models for other bands.  https://mfjenterprises.com/products/mfj-2240   Mount as high as practical, dipole will be horizontal and about 16' long.
Pete W4WWQ


----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>, <[hidden email]>
Sent: 6/9/2020 4:29:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible
________________________________________________________________________________

Hi Gernot!

You pointed the problem out! I have done really a lot of QRP work (DXCC, all continents) landside and of course I will start with low power on board.

Many thanks for your advice to the "Rothhammel". I did not know, that marine antennas are a theme there, but I will have a look into for sure!

Best regards

Peter

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 9. Juni 2020 22:21
An: Peter Kaletsch <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

Hello Peter,
I think it depends on your willingnes to sacrify the shape of your boat.
If you want to get heard anywhere then you either need a long vertical plus good ground as mentioned already, or a dipole as high above sea level as possible. The dipole may be sloped but either the feedpoint needs to be elevated or the ends of the wire. I have operated both configurations near fresh water with kind of satisfaction (~500km on
7/14 MHz are possible on 10Watts) , but not yet on a boat.

The Rothammel also mentions "Marineantennen" and discusses the grounding and antenna suggestions.

Seems like an interesting experiment,
hope you get on the air soon!
73 Gernot DF5RF

BTW, you can use www.deepl.com for a quick translation to German:

"Ich denke, es hängt von Ihrer Bereitschaft ab, die Form Ihres Bootes zu opfern. Wenn Sie irgendwo gehört werden wollen, dann brauchen Sie entweder eine lange Vertikale plus guten Boden, wie bereits erwähnt, oder einen Dipol so hoch über dem Meeresspiegel wie möglich. Der Dipol kann geneigt sein, aber entweder der Speisepunkt oder die Drahtenden müssen erhöht sein. Ich habe beide Konfigurationen in der Nähe von Süßwasser mit einer gewissen Befriedigung betrieben (~500km auf 7/14 MHz sind bei 10Watt möglich), aber noch nicht auf einem Boot.

Der Rothammel erwähnt auch "Marineantennen" und bespricht die Erdung und Antennenvorschläge.

Scheint ein interessantes Experiment zu sein, Ich hoffe, Sie gehen bald auf Sendung!

Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator (kostenlose Version)"


Am 08.06.2020 um 22:47 schrieb Peter Kaletsch:

> Hello fellows;
>
> You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.
>
> For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.
>
> A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.
>
> So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?
>
> But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.
>
> I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?
>
> I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to
> [hidden email]
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Peter - DL1MDZ
>
>
> ________________________________
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[Lyn WØLEN]

Peter -

Having had many years' experience in both boating and mobile operation, my choice would depend on where the antenna will be mounted and how fast your boat is.  

My last boat, a 32' Sea Ray cruiser, had a Radar Arch.  Of course it was all fiberglass, but it was possible to get inside and line it with a heavy copper "foil" material.

Then add an NMO type mount thru the arch and install a mobile Hustler-type antenna.  You will have to change resonators for each band, but the size and cost will be manageable ... as will the aesthetics.

It always worked well for me on fresh water.

73
Lyn, W0LEN


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Peter Kaletsch
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2020 3:47 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 working on motorboats - possible

Hello fellows;

You are my last hope as I cannot imagine that I am the only one in the world who wants to try that.

For many months I have been trying in vain to get tips on how to operate a K3 well on a small 13 meter motor yacht. I am talking about fresh water usage (Lake Garda in Italy), not salt water, and of a GFK built boat.

A dipole is eliminated, it is not a sailing boat. I thought of using a Tarheel Antenna, but the manufacturer advised me against it.

So normal, shortened mobile antennas, mounted on the device carrier, where also the antenna for marine radio is located, should point the way ...?

But how do I get a reasonably effective earth? I read a lot of negative things about ground plates - fast growth, the hull has to be pierced.

I have already considered laying radials from the antenna base below deck in the invisible area, but will this work...?

I am very grateful for every tip and every help - also to [hidden email]

Thanks in advance

Peter - DL1MDZ


________________________________
Peter Kaletsch GmbH | Fürstenrieder Straße 275 | 81377 München | Tel: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 0 | Fax: +49 (0) 89 / 89 60 93 - 99 | [hidden email] | Handelsregisternummer HRB 108093 | Amtsgericht Muenchen | Steuer-Nr: 143/170/40017 | Geschäftsführer: Peter Kaletsch | Sitz der Gesellschaft: München |
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[gt-i]

Jim,
you are right, too often we mean counterpoise and say ground.
Hopefully Peter can start doing his experiments based on our wisdom and
I'm curios what will work ok for him.
73 Gernot DF5RF

Am 09.06.2020 um 22:42 schrieb Jim Brown:

> On 6/9/2020 1:21 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> anywhere then you either need a long vertical plus good ground as
>> mentioned already
>
> WRONG. An end-fed wire needs a COUNTERPOISE, not a connection to
> mother earth. A counterpoise is a low resistance conductor that
> provides a return for the current and the field produced by the
> "intentional" part of the antenna, and the counterpoise IS a part of
> the antenna. Salt water IS an effective counterpoise because it is a
> good conductor; fresh water is NOT, because it is NOT a good
> conductor, so it burns transmitter power.
>
> Likewise, a ground rod is a lousy counterpoise, because the earth is a
> big resistor, and can easily burn much more than half the
> transmitter's power. Radials serve as both a counterpoise and a shield
> ("screen" in British English) -- they shield the field from lossy
> earth AND serve as a return for the current and the field.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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