K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?

[Elecraft mailing list]

I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there hasn't been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the number of reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A comprehensive review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the original K3, would help me to decide whether the main issue that held me back from pulling the trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago (specifically, the quality of the original K3's receive audio, and the anecdotal observations that the K3's receive audio was "tiring" to listen to) has been resolved in the K3S.

BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere and I just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.  (The holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete. <g>)

Thanks!

- Paul
  N6LQ (happy builder, owner, and operator of an Elecraft K2/100)

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[Mike K2MK]

Hi Paul,

I'm pretty sure that the "tiring" issue with the K3 was put to bed with the DSP upgrade with low pass filtering (K3DSPUPGD) in 2010.

73,
Mike K2MK

Elecraft mailing list wrote

I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there hasn't been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the number of reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A comprehensive review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the original K3, would help me to decide whether the main issue that held me back from pulling the trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago (specifically, the quality of the original K3's receive audio, and the anecdotal observations that the K3's receive audio was "tiring" to listen to) has been resolved in the K3S.

BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere and I just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.  (The holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete. <g>)

Thanks!
- Paul

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 27 Oct 13:59 -0500, Mike K2MK wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> I'm pretty sure that the "tiring" issue with the K3 was put to bed with the
> DSP upgrade with low pass filtering (K3DSPUPGD) in 2010.

I've had my K3 just over 5 years--received in October 2010--and I've
never experienced the "tiring audio".  Still, this gets trotted out on
various forums from time to time as an ongoing issue that has apparently
never been resolved, at least to those who complain about it.
Expressions to the contrary fall on seemingly deaf ears.  Sigh.

73, Nate, N0NB

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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[Elecraft mailing list]

The recent ARRL review of the upgraded synthesizer performance is available in the current issue of QST. That, by far, is the biggest change in the K3S vs. the K3 (not that there aren't other changes, such as cw performance, LF rx, etc.)
73,
Bob/AA6VB
      From: Mike K2MK <[hidden email]>
 To: [hidden email]
 Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:58 AM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?
   
Hi Paul,

I'm pretty sure that the "tiring" issue with the K3 was put to bed with the
DSP upgrade with low pass filtering (K3DSPUPGD) in 2010.

73,
Mike K2MK


Elecraft mailing list wrote

> I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be
> forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there hasn't
> been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the number of
> reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A comprehensive
> review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the original K3, would
> help me to decide whether the main issue that held me back from pulling
> the trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago (specifically, the quality of
> the original K3's receive audio, and the anecdotal observations that the
> K3's receive audio was "tiring" to listen to) has been resolved in the
> K3S.
>
> BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere and I
> just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.  (The
> holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete.
> <g>
> )
>
> Thanks!
> - Paul

--
View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-In-Depth-Review-Coming-Soon-tp7609615p7609616.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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[Vic Rosenthal]

Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio. To me it sounds great, others
dislike it. The best way to settle the question for your own, personal
ears, is to find someone nearby who will let you use his/her K3S for a
few hours.

73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 27 Oct 2015 19:53, Paul Clay via Elecraft wrote:

> I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be
> forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there
> hasn't been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the
> number of reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A
> comprehensive review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the
> original K3, would help me to decide whether the main issue that held
> me back from pulling the trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago
> (specifically, the quality of the original K3's receive audio, and
> the anecdotal observations that the K3's receive audio was "tiring"
> to listen to) has been resolved in the K3S.
>
> BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere
> and I just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.
> (The holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete.
> <g>)
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Paul N6LQ (happy builder, owner, and operator of an Elecraft
> K2/100)

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[wayne burdick]

We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S incorporates all of them:

- K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
- K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling noise (mostly at 12 kHz)
- K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some signal levels
- K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD

Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially flat audio passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar) class-AB final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds comes down to how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or shift/width) settings.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.




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[alsopb]

+ AGC parameters?
On 10/27/2015 20:28 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S incorporates all of them:
>
> - K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
> - K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling noise (mostly at 12 kHz)
> - K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some signal levels
> - K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD
>
> Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially flat audio passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar) class-AB final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds comes down to how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or shift/width) settings.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.
>
>
>
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[K7KEY]

​

Audio quality seems to be a very individual matter of taste.   The language
of audiophiles looks to be rivaled only by that of wine experts in trying
to describe their taste.  Radio communication audio doesn't have near that
complexity, but there does still seem to be a lot of personal taste
involved.


I have a K3 that I purchased about 6 years ago.  It has had all the update
mods done to it (except for the KSYN3A upgrade).  I also own a half dozen
other RX, most of them of high quality. After setting the RX audio
equalizer on the K3 to my own preference, I find that it is the easiest to
understand and most pleasing RX audio of any of my receivers.


John  K7KEY

On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Paul Clay via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be
> forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there hasn't
> been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the number of
> reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A comprehensive
> review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the original K3, would
> help me to decide whether the main issue that held me back from pulling the
> trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago (specifically, the quality of the
> original K3's receive audio, and the anecdotal observations that the K3's
> receive audio was "tiring" to listen to) has been resolved in the K3S.
>
> BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere and I
> just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.  (The
> holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete. <g>)
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Paul
>   N6LQ (happy builder, owner, and operator of an Elecraft K2/100)
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

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[Bill-3]

When I first got my K3, I was very disappointed by the receive audio.
Hissy etc. I think everyone knows what I am talking about. It was not my
friend for a very long time.

It took me months of experimenting with the various menu settings and
speaker selections, but I eventually turned the K3 into the best arm
chair copy receiver I have ever had.

Most likely, my settings would not be very good for contesting or DXing
- but, they suit my needs. Make your own settings to please you. Be sure
to keep notes - the K3 is complicated and it very easy to get lost in a
never ending maize of menus.

There-in lies why the K3 is such a great rig. The menus allow it to be
be adjusted to suit the needs of nearly everyone.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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[Charlie T, K3ICH]

I'm not sure what they did, buy my new K3s sounds better to me than my original K3 (27xx S/N), as well as being better than the previous audio winner, my IC-7600.  

That said, I have some high frequency hearing loss making conversation in a crowd difficult.  However, I could understand almost every one I heard during the CQWW contest last weekend.

It was noticeably better and easier to listen to, than the '7600 Rx audio.

Obviously, a personal thing, but I am quite pleased with the audio I'm getting from the K3s out of a pair of inexpensive computer speakers.

The audio with the "AFX" enabled is a fun too.  If you're only using one speaker, you owe it to yourself to plug in another one to experience the AFX mode.

73, Charlie k3ICH

 



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[alorona]

Oh no... Oh no, not the "bad K3 audio" thread again?!


I'm pretty sure that, five years from now, people will still be asking, "Was the phase noise of the new synthesizers reviewed in QST ever fixed so that it's better than the old synthesizer at higher offsets?"


Al  W6LX
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I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be available
for K3 DSP's.

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:28:19 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S incorporates
all of them:
>
> - K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
> - K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling noise (mostly
at 12 kHz)
> - K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some signal
levels
> - K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD
>
> Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially flat audio
passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar) class-AB
final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds comes down to
how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or shift/width) settings.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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[gm3sek]

Hi Stewart

>I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be
>available
>for K3 DSP's.

Your K3 has probably had these DSP changes for some time (assuming you
have kept the firmware reasonably up-to-date). Future firmware releases
will apply equally to both the K3S and the K3.

Likewise, all hardware upgrades prior to release of the K3S have already
been incorporated into K3 production. Hardware upgrade kits are
available for older models - see the Elecraft website, which also states
when each upgrade was introduced.

The only only exception listed below is the redesigned AF output and
driver stages. These upgrades were introduced in the new KIO3B module
which now forms part of the K3S (a radical redesign which also includes
USB connectivity for CAT and audio). The KIO3B will eventually be
available for the K3 as well, as an optional replacement for the older
KIO3.
 

73 from Ian GM3SEK

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>Stewart
>Sent: 28 October 2015 07:42
>To: Wayne Burdick; Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO
>Cc: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?
>
>I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be
>available
>for K3 DSP's.
>
>73
>Stewart G3RXQ
>On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:28:19 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S
>incorporates
>all of them:
>>
>> - K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
>> - K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling

noise
>(mostly
>at 12 kHz)
>> - K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some
>signal
>levels
>> - K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD
>>
>> Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially
flat
>audio
>passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar)
class-
>AB
>final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds comes
>down to
>how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or shift/width)
settings.

>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>> On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO
><[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>>
>>> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.
>>
>>

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Hi Ian,
Yes, I keep my K3 pretty well up to date with firmware releases, so if they are
there I will have them.

A little confused about the redesigned audio.

You wrote about "redesigned AF output and driver stages. These upgrades were
introduced in the new KIO3B module".

As I remember the audio stage of my K3 is on the DSP board. Has it been moved,
or have I misunderstood ?

B.T.W re our conversation at the Convention about ferrites. They have not rusted
yet :-)

73
Stewart G3RXQ



 
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:57:52 -0000, Ian White wrote:

> Hi Stewart
>
>>I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be
>>available
>>for K3 DSP's.
>
> Your K3 has probably had these DSP changes for some time (assuming you
> have kept the firmware reasonably up-to-date). Future firmware releases
> will apply equally to both the K3S and the K3.
>
> Likewise, all hardware upgrades prior to release of the K3S have already
> been incorporated into K3 production. Hardware upgrade kits are
> available for older models - see the Elecraft website, which also states
> when each upgrade was introduced.
>
> The only only exception listed below is the redesigned AF output and
> driver stages. These upgrades were introduced in the new KIO3B module
> which now forms part of the K3S (a radical redesign which also includes
> USB connectivity for CAT and audio). The KIO3B will eventually be
> available for the K3 as well, as an optional replacement for the older
> KIO3.
>
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>>Stewart
>>Sent: 28 October 2015 07:42
>>To: Wayne Burdick; Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO
>>Cc: [hidden email]
>>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?
>>
>>I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be
>>available
>>for K3 DSP's.
>>
>>73
>>Stewart G3RXQ
>>On Tue, 27 Oct 2015 13:28:19 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>>> We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S
>>incorporates
>>all of them:
>>>
>>> - K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
>>> - K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling
> noise
>>(mostly
>>at 12 kHz)
>>> - K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some
>>signal
>>levels
>>> - K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD
>>>
>>> Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially
> flat
>>audio
>>passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar)
> class-
>>AB
>>final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds comes
>>down to
>>how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or shift/width)
> settings.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO
>><[hidden email]>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.

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[wayne burdick]

The speaker amplifier and driver stages that were redesigned are on the DSP board, not the KIO3B.

The KIO3B does have new audio circuitry, namely a CODEC and support circuitry for merging line-level audio with control data for use by the new USB port. But this has nothing to do with the speaker amp.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 28, 2015, at 4:10 AM, Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Ian,
> Yes, I keep my K3 pretty well up to date with firmware releases, so if they are
> there I will have them.
>
> A little confused about the redesigned audio.
>
> You wrote about "redesigned AF output and driver stages. These upgrades were
> introduced in the new KIO3B module".


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[wayne burdick]

These algorithms were corrected a couple of years ago and are already part of the K3/K3S firmware load.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


On Oct 28, 2015, at 12:41 AM, Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am interested as to whether the corrected DSP AGC algorithms will be available
> for K3 DSP's.
>
> 73
> Stewart G3RXQ



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[Jim Bolit]

Mike,

I have a different opinion and it does not rely on words like "tiring".  

In June, 2015, I went as far as sending my K3 (#04841) back to Elecraft with
the headphones I use to take a look at the hiss issue I have when the volume
control set completely counter clockwise, with *nothing* attached to the rig
but a 12 volt car battery and the headphones.  This hiss is always present
when the A.F. gain is set for normal listening to signals.

I have compared my K3 to two of my friends K3's and mine is the only one
with noticeable hiss (pre and post service by Elecraft).  

I had Elecraft perform the "once over" making sure I had the latest fixes
(firmware, gold contacts, etc)and install two of the latest and greatest SYN
boards.  The audio hiss is still present.

I have worked around the problem by using the Timewave 599ZX which has no
hiss that I can hear.

Just as a side note, I used my Kenwood TS-480 rig when the K3 was in the
shop, and found the audio was better than the K3 and the noise reduction
algorithm was superior for my conditions.  This, in itself, can be a
complete new thread.................................

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  

The Elecraft service level is second to none, going to great lengths in an
attempt to sort out the issue.



.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike
K2MK
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:58 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?

Hi Paul,

I'm pretty sure that the "tiring" issue with the K3 was put to bed with the
DSP upgrade with low pass filtering (K3DSPUPGD) in 2010.

73,
Mike K2MK


Elecraft mailing list wrote

> I was wondering if and when a full-on review of the K3S would be
> forthcoming.  I'm a bit surprised that following its release there
> hasn't been a lot of reviews posted (certainly no comparison to the
> number of reviews that followed the release of the original K3).  A
> comprehensive review of the K3S, particularly with reference to the
> original K3, would help me to decide whether the main issue that held
> me back from pulling the trigger and ordering a K3 some time ago
> (specifically, the quality of the original K3's receive audio, and the
> anecdotal observations that the K3's receive audio was "tiring" to
> listen to) has been resolved in the K3S.
>
> BTW, if such a review has already been posted or published somewhere
> and I just missed it, I'd would really appreciate a referral to it.  
> (The holidays are approaching and my "wish list" is not yet complete.
> <g>
> )
>
> Thanks!
> - Paul

--
View this message in context:
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15p7609616.html
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[Jim Bolit]

Wayne,

Will any of the changes affect the audio from either front or back headphone
jacks, or is it only affect the speaker, both internal and any external?

Jim
W6AIM



.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 1:28 PM
To: Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S In-Depth Review Coming Soon?

We've made several changes to improve audio over years, and a K3S
incorporates all of them:

- K3:  improved 12VDC decoupling to the AF amp
- K3:  added a dual low-noise LPF to eliminate residual sampling noise
(mostly at 12 kHz)
- K3:  corrected DSP AGC algorithms, which were non-monotonic at some signal
levels
- K3S: redesigned AF output and driver stages for lower IMD

Taken together, these changes provide a low-distortion, essentially flat
audio passband. Most other modern transceivers use the same (or similar)
class-AB final AF amp devices that we use in the K3/K3S, so how it sounds
comes down to how RX EQ is set up, as well as the LO-CUT/HI-CUT (or
shift/width) settings.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



On Oct 27, 2015, at 1:10 PM, Vic Rosenthal 4X6GP/K2VCO <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Operators disagree about K3/K3S audio.




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[Grant Youngman]

Any notion yet about when the new DSP board will be available for order for K3 retrofit?

Thanks .. Grant NQ5T

> On Oct 28, 2015, at 9:35 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The speaker amplifier and driver stages that were redesigned are on the DSP board, not the KIO3B.
>
> The KIO3B does have new audio circuitry, namely a CODEC and support circuitry for merging line-level audio with control data for use by the new USB port. But this has nothing to do with the speaker amp.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>

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Thanks for the "heads up" Wayne.

73
Stewart G3RXQ
-
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 07:35:54 -0700, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> The speaker amplifier and driver stages that were redesigned are on the DSP
board, not the KIO3B.
>
> The KIO3B does have new audio circuitry, namely a CODEC and support circuitry
for merging line-level audio with control data for use by the new USB port. But
this has nothing to do with the speaker amp.

>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Oct 28, 2015, at 4:10 AM, Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Ian,
>> Yes, I keep my K3 pretty well up to date with firmware releases, so if they

are
>> there I will have them.
>>
>> A little confused about the redesigned audio.
>>
>> You wrote about "redesigned AF output and driver stages. These upgrades were
>> introduced in the new KIO3B module".


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