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K3S Microphone Cable

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john@kk9a.com

K3S Microphone Cable

I saw the Heil connectors and Heil wire when I first started my search. I
was not interest in the wire. I did have an interest in the Foster
connectors but could not find them in stock anywhere.

73,
John KK9A

Bill Wrote:

Heil has the best Foster connector. Sold in pairs. Not sure if price but
very reasonable.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

John,

I agree that the Heil 8 pin connectors are the best.
The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
pair and is soft and flexible.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/16/2018 10:08 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I saw the Heil connectors and Heil wire when I first started my search. I
> was not interest in the wire. I did have an interest in the Foster
> connectors but could not find them in stock anywhere.
>
> 73,
> John KK9A
>
>
> Bill Wrote:
>
> Heil has the best Foster connector. Sold in pairs. Not sure if price but
> very reasonable.
>

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy,
ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both
The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One
Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the
cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to
the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry.
SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain
shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal
pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than
the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage
on the signal pair.

Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies,
but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said
that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the
dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio
old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie
mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on
the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed
that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of
their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of
these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I
found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel
2, and were thus unusable!

I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and
found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded
cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by
the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.

All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10
each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my
website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES
papers.

As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 8:59 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
> contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
> pair and is soft and flexible.

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Clay Autery-2

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

Canare Star Quad does have a braided shield... <confused>
Never did any head to head testing, but I've used it for both balanced and unbalanced runs, and it's always performed flawlessly for me.
Ease of handling, flexibility, and durability gets high marks from me too.
Granted, I am probably a bit biased due to my heavy use of Canare materials in my ouw whole house project and several other distribution setups. Love their F and BNC connectors and tools, too.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]> Date: 1/16/18 11:48 (GMT-06:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy,
ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both
The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One
Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the
cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to
the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry.
SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain
shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal
pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than
the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage
on the signal pair.

Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies,
but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said
that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the
dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio
old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie
mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on
the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed
that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of
their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of
these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I
found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel
2, and were thus unusable!

I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and
found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded
cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by
the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.

All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10
each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my
website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES
papers.

As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.

73, Jim K9YC
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Russ-2

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Jim:

Still on topic any tying into a query the other day on the Reflector....

You are are the RFI mitigation guru - I am very impressed with the wealth of test data (especially on ferrite characteristics) that you have amassed. I have this cheap little Rolls MX28 mixer that I am using for SO2R monitoring. I brute force added about a pound of RG-8 size #31 beads to the AF and power inputs (it worked) but I want to fine tune the scheme. I have planned (using your data) to make chokes by wrapping the beads with 6 turns of RG-174 (used for audio) and grounding the "output" where it enters the mixer and leaving the input floating for CMRR. The mixer's impedance is 10K (resistive - no xfmr) bridging.

Thanks, Russ KD4JO

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 12:49 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable

The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry. SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage on the signal pair.

Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies, but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel 2, and were thus unusable!

I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.

All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10 each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES papers.

As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 8:59 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
> contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
> pair and is soft and flexible.

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

I've used some star quad cable in certain pro audio applications.

The braid shield type is necessary where flexibility is required however, just as in coax, not all braid is the same. Some provides 85% shield (poor) while others approach near 100% shielding (good). There is a difference in price, usually for this reason.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 16, 2018, at 12:11 PM, Clay Autery <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Canare Star Quad does have a braided shield... <confused>
> Never did any head to head testing, but I've used it for both balanced and unbalanced runs, and it's always performed flawlessly for me.
> Ease of handling, flexibility, and durability gets high marks from me too.
> Granted, I am probably a bit biased due to my heavy use of Canare materials in my ouw whole house project and several other distribution setups. Love their F and BNC connectors and tools, too.
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
> -------- Original message --------From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]> Date: 1/16/18 11:48 (GMT-06:00) To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
> The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy,
> ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both
> The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One
> Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the
> cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to
> the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry.
> SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain
> shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal
> pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than
> the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage
> on the signal pair.
>
> Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies,
> but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said
> that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the
> dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio
> old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie
> mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on
> the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed
> that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of
> their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of
> these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I
> found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel
> 2, and were thus unusable!
>
> I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and
> found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded
> cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by
> the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.
>
> All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10
> each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my
> website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES
> papers.
>
> As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
> As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Mark Goldberg

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE
> (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both The Pin One
> Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One Problem is
>

> I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and found
> that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded cable like
> Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by the Neumann
> distributor) also performed quite well.
>
> All of that work was published as AES papers.
>

I looked at your paper "Common-Mode to Differential-Mode Conversion in
Shielded Twisted-Pair Cables (Shield-Current-Induced Noise)" The cables are
not identified by name. Is there a cross reference you can provide?

I try to use double shielded cables or hardline in my RF installations. I
have seen leakage on the order of -40 dB on crappy cables.

I did use a knockoff Star Quad cable for my microphones but have no data to
substantiate using it. Reading your info, it may not be the best choice. I
had to add a braid from the mixer chassis to the microphone mounting for a
good ground to eliminate my RFI problems. Connecting the braid to the shock
mount inner ring did not work. The Metal shock mount inner ring was not
connected to the metal microphone body! It looked connected, but must have
a painted plastic part or non conductive paint.

Thanks for all the info,

Mark
W7MLG
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Clay Autery-2

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Star Quad is >95% coverage according to the spec sheet.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> Date: 1/16/18 12:40 (GMT-06:00) To: Clay Autery <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email], [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
I've used some star quad cable in certain pro audio applications.

The braid shield type is necessary where flexibility is required however, just as in coax, not all braid is the same. Some provides 85% shield (poor) while others approach near 100% shielding (good). There is a difference in price, usually for this reason.

Bob, K4TAX

Sent from my iPhone

Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Hi Bob,

Shield coverage does not matter! Study the SCIN paper -- what matters
is the UNIFORMITY of the shield. In the world of pro audio, we learned
long ago that twisting is at least as important as shielding, both at
audio and RF frequencies. From the earliest days of telephony, telco
cables ran on the same poles as power. In those days, power was
relatively free of AF noise components. The only noise rejection
employed was that the telco pairs were crossed over every few poles.
This was sufficient because of the long wavelength of 60 Hz and the low
harmonics associated with running motors.

At an RFI workshop I taught in 2005 with other members of the AES
Standards Committee WG on RFI, I demonstrated the use of one pair of a
CAT5 cable carrying mic audio from a pro condenser mic to the audio
mixer with both conductors of another pair connecting the Pin 1s. That
connection provided a bond for the mic shielding and a path for phantom
power needed to power the mic. I injected RF along the cable using a
Nextel phone and a TH-F6A Kenwood talkie, moving both along the cable,
and keying the talkie on-off continuously to generate AM. Another of the
same mic type was connected to the same mixer via Belden 8412. The mics
had some RFI susceptibility at VHF and UHF. The two cables were equally
good at rejecting the RFI. In his workshops, Neil Muncy demonstrated
the value of twisting by running a very long chain of mic cables around
the facility where he was presenting it, then moving a tape demagnetizer
along the line. The only hum heard was where the twist was interrupted
at mated XL connectors.

Someone asked about cross-references to the cable types tested. The
foil/drain cables included everything I could get my hands on at the
time. The braid-shielded cables included a variety of what was in my
working stash, a few samples that Belden provided, and a nice selection
from Gepco. Based on my work, Gepco later produced a miniature
braid-shielded twisted pair with no drain wire (comparable in size to
standard rack cable and mic snake pairs). The braid/foil pair came from
a member of the SynAudCon pro audio community working in Brazil. Based
on Neil's work, he got a local cable company to build it for him.

In general, all you need to know is to avoid foil/drain cables, if the
cable is shielded, it should have a braid shield with no drain wire, and
that a twisted pair cable with a drain wire is worse than no shield at all.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 10:40 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> The braid shield type is necessary where flexibility is required however, just as in coax, not all braid is the same. Some provides 85% shield (poor) while others approach near 100% shielding (good). There is a difference in price, usually for this reason.

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Nr4c

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

Call HRI in Woodbridge. My source!

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Jan 16, 2018, at 10:08 AM, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I saw the Heil connectors and Heil wire when I first started my search. I
> was not interest in the wire. I did have an interest in the Foster
> connectors but could not find them in stock anywhere.
>
> 73,
> John KK9A
>
>
> Bill Wrote:
>
> Heil has the best Foster connector. Sold in pairs. Not sure if price but
> very reasonable.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ...nr4c. bill
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Garry VE7PNQ

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Back in my broadcast years I worked at the low budget end of the industry where we did what ever it took to get on the air at the lowest cost possible. In small market stations where Radio Shack was our primary local parts supplier we abused unbalanced lines to the extreme as long as the cable length was not too long and the nearest transmitter was not too close. Low cost mixers had 3 pin connectors but with two pins grounded to accommodate a broad range of low cost mics, cables and adaptors.

Later in life when I had more money, the cost of mixers, differential amps etc was lower and the distance to high powered amateur radio transmitters was inches rather than miles, I adopted a more rigid adherence to broadcast standard low impedance cables even over relatively short cable lengths of a few inches or feet. As good as the noise rejection of new pre-amplifiers are, I still find separation of shield grounding and the minus side of a mic input important with modern radios. This has become more important in the era of huge numbers RFI sources such as digital radios, local residential RFI from IOT, LED lamps, cheap switching power supplies, thermostats and people still using compact fluorescent lights.

OK honest truth, how many of us only have one radio operating at a time? How often do you need your HF rig to reject RFI from your VHF/UHF transmitter, computer accessories or switching power supplies in our energy saving appliances.

I may be showing my age but physics doesn't change. Shielding external noise before it reaches the input to the pre-amplifier is still an effective strategy. I still use balanced lines when ever I can.

Garry
VE7PNQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 9:49 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable

The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry. SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage on the signal pair.

Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies, but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel 2, and were thus unusable!

I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.

All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10 each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES papers.

As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 8:59 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
> contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
> pair and is soft and flexible.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

Hi Garry,

As a genuine OF (born 1941) who still keeps trying to learn something
new every day, I strongly suggest that you study the material on my
website about The Pin One Problem. I own thousands of feet of high
quality pro mic cables and about 40 pro mics. Yes, physics doesn't
change, but some of what we have learned about it over the years is
simply wrong.

If all of the gear in a station is properly bonded, everything in your
home is properly bonded, including power, and all of that is properly
bonded to your station, and if the input gains and output levels are
reasonably well set, and if all cable shields are bonded to the chassis
at the point of entry, and if all power for station equipment comes from
outlets that either share the same green wire back to the panel or from
outlets that have their green wires bonded together, there is no need
for anything fancy in the way of cable, nor is there any need for
balanced wiring.

There are two tutorials on power, grounding, and bonding on my website.
One, written for installers and contractors for large and small audio
and video systems, was commissioned. You'll find it listed as a "white
paper for the real world." The other is in the form of slides for a talk
that I've been invited to give at ham events and to ham clubs on power,
grounding, bonding, and audio interfacing for hams. k9yc.com/publish.htm

If I were in the position of defining standards for consumer audio and
ham radio back in the '60s and '70s when the transformation began
between hollow state and solid state gear, I would certainly have gone
for balanced interfaces (i.e., shielded twisted pair). But that didn't
happen, and we're stuck with unbalanced interfaces. The simple, solid
engineering outlined in those slides is an inexpensive and dependable
solution.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 8:09 PM, Garry VE7PNQ wrote:
> As good as the noise rejection of new pre-amplifiers are, I still find separation of shield grounding and the minus side of a mic input important with modern radios.

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Clay Autery-2

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by Garry VE7PNQ

Frankly... the electromagnetic environment in my home vicinity prrsently is like trying to manage airspace in a war zone during a major offensuve.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Garry VE7PNQ <[hidden email]> Date: 1/16/18 22:09 (GMT-06:00) To: [hidden email], [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
Back in my broadcast years I worked at the low budget end of the industry where we did what ever it took to get on the air at the lowest cost possible. In small market stations where Radio Shack was our primary local parts supplier we abused unbalanced lines to the extreme as long as the cable length was not too long and the nearest transmitter was not too close. Low cost mixers had 3 pin connectors but with two pins grounded to accommodate a broad range of low cost mics, cables and adaptors.

Later in life when I had more money, the cost of mixers, differential amps etc was lower and the distance to high powered amateur radio transmitters was inches rather than miles, I adopted a more rigid adherence to broadcast standard low impedance cables even over relatively short cable lengths of a few inches or feet. As good as the noise rejection of new pre-amplifiers are, I still find separation of shield grounding and the minus side of a mic input important with modern radios. This has become more important in the era of huge numbers RFI sources such as digital radios, local residential RFI from IOT, LED lamps, cheap switching power supplies, thermostats and people still using compact fluorescent lights.

OK honest truth, how many of us only have one radio operating at a time? How often do you need your HF rig to reject RFI from your VHF/UHF transmitter, computer accessories or switching power supplies in our energy saving appliances.

I may be showing my age but physics doesn't change. Shielding external noise before it reaches the input to the pre-amplifier is still an effective strategy. I still use balanced lines when ever I can.

Garry
VE7PNQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 9:49 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable

The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed both The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The Pin One Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect, whereby the cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure, first going to the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to the circuitry. SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable" having a foil/drain shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the same rate as the signal pair and is much closer (along the cable) to one signal conductor than the other. This causes shield current to induce a differential voltage on the signal pair.

Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio frequencies, but in multiple bar conversations when we met at conventions, he said that both were also very strong causes of RFI, and that Pin One was the dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that confirmed this. Audio old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and early '90s, Mackie mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast stations that were on the high end of the band. My work on susceptibility of equipment showed that they suffered both from Pin One Problems AND that the bandwidth of their audio circuitry extended past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of these mixers to test condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I found that these mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel 2, and were thus unusable!

I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported by the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.

All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10 each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the AES papers.

As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/16/2018 8:59 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
> contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
> pair and is soft and flexible.

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S Microphone Cable

In reply to this post by john@kk9a.com

The only environmental issues that could affect audio are 1) magnetic
fields developed by faults in the power wiring in your home or leakage
flux from big power transformers; 2) a variable-speed motor controller
very nearby; 3) difference in potential between interconnected equipment
that creates leakage currents on cable shields.

Cable shields have NO effect on magnetic coupling at audio frequencies.
Twisting, however, is VERY resistant to magnetic coupling. #2 is by
magnetic coupling if the source is nearby. The cure for #3 is BONDING.

Magnetic coupling also occurs in loops that are part of the signal path,
like cable shields in unbalanced circuits. Coupling is proportional to
the area of the loop, so keeping bonding conductors as short as possible
helps. Also, by virtue of the difference in the resistance of cable
shields and bonding conductors, a beefy #10 or #12 bonding conductor
will carry far more of any induced current than cable shields that are
typically #18 - #22 gauge.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/17/2018 4:35 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

> Frankly... the electromagnetic environment in my home vicinity
> prrsently is like trying to manage airspace in a war zone during a
> major offensuve.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Garry VE7PNQ <[hidden email]>
> Date: 1/16/18 22:09 (GMT-06:00)
> To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
>
> Back in my broadcast years I worked at the low budget end of the
> industry where we did what ever it took to get on the air at the
> lowest cost possible. In small market stations where Radio Shack was
> our primary local parts supplier we abused unbalanced lines to the
> extreme as long as the cable length was not too long and the nearest
> transmitter was not too close. Low cost mixers had 3 pin connectors
> but with two pins grounded to accommodate a broad range of low cost
> mics, cables and adaptors.
>
> Later in life when I had more money, the cost of mixers, differential
> amps etc was lower and the distance to high powered amateur radio
> transmitters was inches rather than miles, I adopted a more rigid
> adherence to broadcast standard low impedance cables even over
> relatively short cable lengths of a few inches or feet. As good as the
> noise rejection of new pre-amplifiers are, I still find separation of
> shield grounding and the minus side of a mic input important with
> modern radios. This has become more important in the era of huge
> numbers RFI sources such as digital radios, local residential RFI from
> IOT, LED lamps, cheap switching power supplies, thermostats and people
> still using compact fluorescent lights.
>
> OK honest truth, how many of us only have one radio operating at a
> time? How often do you need your HF rig to reject RFI from your
> VHF/UHF transmitter, computer accessories or switching power supplies
> in our energy saving appliances.
>
> I may be showing my age but physics doesn't change. Shielding external
> noise before it reaches the input to the pre-amplifier is still an
> effective strategy. I still use balanced lines when ever I can.
>
> Garry
> VE7PNQ
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 9:49 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Microphone Cable
>
> The nature of the shield matters a lot. Back in 1994, Neil Muncy,
> ex-W3WJE (SK), published the landmark AES paper in which he exposed
> both The Pin One Problem and Shield Current Induced Noise (SCIN). The
> Pin One Problem is the (now) well known equipment design defect,
> whereby the cable shield fails to contact the shielding enclosure,
> first going to the circuit board, where shield current is coupled to
> the circuitry. SCIN is a defect in the construction of "rack cable"
> having a foil/drain shield, whereby the drain wire is twisted at the
> same rate as the signal pair and is much closer (along the cable) to
> one signal conductor than the other. This causes shield current to
> induce a differential voltage on the signal pair.
>
> Neil did his work on how these mechanisms coupled at audio
> frequencies, but in multiple bar conversations when we met at
> conventions, he said that both were also very strong causes of RFI,
> and that Pin One was the dominant cause. In 2003, I did research that
> confirmed this. Audio old-timers may recall that in the late '80s and
> early '90s, Mackie mixers were almost certain to pick up AM broadcast
> stations that were on the high end of the band. My work on
> susceptibility of equipment showed that they suffered both from Pin
> One Problems AND that the bandwidth of their audio circuitry extended
> past 1 MHz! In attempting to use one of these mixers to test
> condenser mics for RFI from FM and TV broadcast, I found that these
> mixers themselves strongly detected RF from TV channel 2, and were
> thus unusable!
>
> I also tested the RF rejection of quad cables, including Canare, and
> found that they were inferior in that regard to a good braid-shielded
> cable like Belden 8412. Gotham Audio cable (an EU cable then imported
> by the Neumann distributor) also performed quite well.
>
> All of that work was published as AES papers. You can buy them for $10
> each at aes.org, or you can download them without the AES logo from my
> website for free. :) k9yc.com/publish.htm Scroll down to find the
> AES papers.
>
> As to the Heil cable -- I've never seen it, don't know its construction.
> As Don notes, additional conductors can be useful for control functions.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 1/16/2018 8:59 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> > The Heilwire is IMHO the best wire for ham applications because it
> > contains additional conductors for PTT as well as a shielded twisted
> > pair and is soft and flexible.