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K3S OR K3

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bs usb

K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I
was not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no
longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new
K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra
expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X
improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be
convinced to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X
improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3S OR K3

I think "improvement" is a very subjective term :-)

Phil -- Sent from my iPhone 5S

> On Aug 20, 2015, at 11:40, bs usb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was not interested in either radio.
>
> Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.
>
> I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.
>
> In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.
>
> Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced to pay 2X.
>
> So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?
>
> --
> Frank-K5DKZ
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Nr4c

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

First, ever tried to buy a Brand New just made 2008 automobile or refrigerator or (you name the product) in 2015? It's not marketing, it's just business. The radio is different. New Main RF board, now 4 layers instead of 2, so should be quieter. Various "bodges" and mods have been built-in to the PCB (prob replaced by a whole new series of mods). There is a new one-piece bezel on the display (with an index pointer,: don't ask what for).

Now, what is all this "2X" about. Is this an indicator of new means 2 times the price of the old one. That's just not true. Yes the price is a little higher but the design is almost 8 years newer, and the "NEW" KXV3B has two preamps for 12, 10, and 6 meters that were not there before and it is included in the price (was around $140 I think). So I don't think the price is all that out of line.

Now if you want the latest, it is available. But you can save some money by building a kit. Start simple and add as you find the need and cash.

But, there are some good deals on used K3 radios out there and they are still very good radios.

However if you are considering buying used and upgrading with some of the new modules developed for the K3S, compare the cost. The used rig you buy may not have the features you want, more money here. And the new modules cost money as well. I think you can almost buy the kit K3S for about the same as a K3 plus the mods and you will have to install the mods yourself, when they are available.

I bit the bullet and sold my KX3 system and bought a K3S and kept my K3 for portable use.

I'm glad I did what I did. I really like the "S". I think you will too.

Sent from my iPad
...bc nr4c

> On Aug 20, 2015, at 2:40 PM, bs usb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was not interested in either radio.
>
> Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.
>
> I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.
>
> In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.
>
> Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced to pay 2X.
>
> So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?
>
> --
> Frank-K5DKZ
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Doug Turnbull

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I
was not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no
longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new
K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra
expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X
improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be
convinced to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X
improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

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KENT TRIMBLE

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

Dear B.S. . . .

1) Of course it's a marketing tactic. Businesses stay solvent
/because/ of marketing tactics. What else is new and why be concerned
about it?

2) The K2 is still in production because it's an entirely different
radio requiring building skills rather than assembly skills. That
appeals to some hams.

3) The K3S is an enhanced version of the K3. Only you, and not the
reflector, can decide whether it meets your needs and fits your wallet.

4) How you would quantify "2x" is beyond me. Two handles instead of one?

73,

Kent K9ZTV

On 8/20/2015 1:40 PM, bs usb wrote:

> I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I
> was not interested in either radio.
>
> Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.
>
> I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no
> longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
> tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.
>
> In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new
> K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the
> extra expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X
> improvement.
>
> Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be
> convinced to pay 2X.
>
> So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X
> improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

The K2 is still in production, but it is not the same as the K2 started out.
It too went through a major upgrade at SN 3000 - new boards with all the
prior mods included as standard, and at that time you could no longer
buy the older K2 from Elecraft anymore.
Take a look at the FAQ for the K3S and you should see a parallel to the
K2 upgrade at SN 3000, only the "K2" designation was not changed when
that happened. With the K3, Elecraft decided to upgrade the model
number as well as the insides.
And by the way, Elecraft still offers upgrade kits to bring an older K2
almost up to the electrical equivalent of a new K2 - the "almost" is
that there are a few minor items that are not practical to upgrade
(unless you replace the boards too).
The situation with the K3 is similar. Elecraft offers (or will soon
offer) upgraded modules that can be added to a K3 to bring it almost up
to the same as the K3S. The new synthesizers are already available as
is the KXV3B, and they are offering kits to upgrade the KBPF3 to the
KBPF3A level.

Yes, it is a "Marketing Tactic", but instead of having a negative
connotation, I believe it is a very positive one which says "We will
provide you the means to upgrade your older transceivers, and we will do
that as long as possible and as completely as possible".

Some parts for the Elecraft legacy gear (K2, K1, and KX1) are becoming
difficult to source, but Elecraft has gone to great effort and expense
to provide suitable substitutes. I have personally been involved in
evaluating some of those part changes, such as the exercise needed when
the blue wide range 1 to 40 pF trimmer capacitors were not longer
available. That event "shook up" the entire legacy product line. I
have known other companies to respond by simply dropping support and
parts supplies.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/20/2015 2:40 PM, bs usb wrote:
> I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no
> longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
> tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.
>

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ae4pb

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

Doug,
I just went through this process. The Kenwood TS590SG was on my list. AT
the end of the day the deciding factors came down to support and
upgradability. The Elecraft support is fanatical and as developments are
made we have the option to update our radios (for the most part). If you
already own a K3 you can progressively update the features you need to the
latest technology. If you don't own one you can buy the latest version which
reflects all updates and developments to date. You also get a warranty. You
may not need the latest developments OR may be able to get a K3 and update
only the things you need less expensive than a new K3S. I would ask how much
your time is worth? The cost difference between the Kenwood and a likewise
equipped K3S was around $1800 or so. When Kenwood comes out with a new
version the value of the TS590SG will drop like a hot rock. If you look at
the value of a used K3 VS what they were selling for prior to the release of
the K3S has the value dropped by the same margin? From what I've seen the
used K3 rigs are still fetching a premium AND they can be progressively
updated.

The Kenwood is probably just fine for some folks. Personally I want
fanatical support and upgradability in addition to the bleeding edge of
performance.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:41 PM
To: 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was
not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer
available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I
believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S.
I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense.
For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced
to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement
in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

______________________________________________________________
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Doug Turnbull

Re: K3S OR K3

Jer,
I agree. If one were comparing companies then Elecraft comes out on
top full stop - no argument. We were comparing K3 and K3S so the TS59SG
was a good starting point. Remember the standard K3 does not have dual
watch; I think the TS590SG does so if one does not have the second receiver
there is a disadvantage in the K3. However, I am a true blue Elecraft fan
and am most pleased to have the K3. My only intent was to put things into
perspective - $1800 is mucho money to some of our good friends. To me as
well but I could spring to it if needed.

I doubt that my K3 will work any DX station which a TS590SG could not
also work. The differences between K3 and K3S are smaller still. Then
Elecraft allows us to further narrow the gap with upgrades. Some features
mean very little to me such as the ability to go below 160M. Everyone must
make up their own mind but let us not expect a world of difference in
results.

To twist slightly what you said; "I am a fanatical supporter of a
company which gives fanatical support." We are on the same track. Oh
what a back slappers club we are. Cheers and enjoy your Elecraft.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:57
To: 'Doug Turnbull'; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Doug,
I just went through this process. The Kenwood TS590SG was on my list. AT
the end of the day the deciding factors came down to support and
upgradability. The Elecraft support is fanatical and as developments are
made we have the option to update our radios (for the most part). If you
already own a K3 you can progressively update the features you need to the
latest technology. If you don't own one you can buy the latest version which
reflects all updates and developments to date. You also get a warranty. You
may not need the latest developments OR may be able to get a K3 and update
only the things you need less expensive than a new K3S. I would ask how much
your time is worth? The cost difference between the Kenwood and a likewise
equipped K3S was around $1800 or so. When Kenwood comes out with a new
version the value of the TS590SG will drop like a hot rock. If you look at
the value of a used K3 VS what they were selling for prior to the release of
the K3S has the value dropped by the same margin? From what I've seen the
used K3 rigs are still fetching a premium AND they can be progressively
updated.

The Kenwood is probably just fine for some folks. Personally I want
fanatical support and upgradability in addition to the bleeding edge of
performance.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:41 PM
To: 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was
not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer
available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I
believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S.
I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense.
For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced
to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement
in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Jerry Moore

Re: K3S OR K3

Doug you're such a fan boy!!! And I'll be right there with you after Sept
5th!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Turnbull [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 3:22 PM
To: [hidden email]; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Jer,
I agree. If one were comparing companies then Elecraft comes out on
top full stop - no argument. We were comparing K3 and K3S so the TS59SG
was a good starting point. Remember the standard K3 does not have dual
watch; I think the TS590SG does so if one does not have the second receiver
there is a disadvantage in the K3. However, I am a true blue Elecraft
fan
and am most pleased to have the K3. My only intent was to put things
into
perspective - $1800 is mucho money to some of our good friends. To me as
well but I could spring to it if needed.

I doubt that my K3 will work any DX station which a TS590SG could not
also work. The differences between K3 and K3S are smaller still. Then
Elecraft allows us to further narrow the gap with upgrades. Some
features
mean very little to me such as the ability to go below 160M. Everyone
must
make up their own mind but let us not expect a world of difference in
results.

To twist slightly what you said; "I am a fanatical supporter of a
company which gives fanatical support." We are on the same track. Oh
what a back slappers club we are. Cheers and enjoy your Elecraft.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:57
To: 'Doug Turnbull'; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Doug,
I just went through this process. The Kenwood TS590SG was on my list.
AT
the end of the day the deciding factors came down to support and
upgradability. The Elecraft support is fanatical and as developments are
made we have the option to update our radios (for the most part). If you
already own a K3 you can progressively update the features you need to the
latest technology. If you don't own one you can buy the latest version which
reflects all updates and developments to date. You also get a warranty.
You
may not need the latest developments OR may be able to get a K3 and update
only the things you need less expensive than a new K3S. I would ask how much
your time is worth? The cost difference between the Kenwood and a likewise
equipped K3S was around $1800 or so. When Kenwood comes out with a new
version the value of the TS590SG will drop like a hot rock. If you look at
the value of a used K3 VS what they were selling for prior to the release of
the K3S has the value dropped by the same margin? From what I've seen the
used K3 rigs are still fetching a premium AND they can be progressively
updated.

The Kenwood is probably just fine for some folks. Personally I want
fanatical support and upgradability in addition to the bleeding edge of
performance.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:41 PM
To: 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and
K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch
card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in
my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was
not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer
available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I
believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S.
I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense.
For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced
to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement
in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

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ae4pb

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

One other question I asked. Why do the majority of DXpeditions use Elecraft
K3/S ? Lots of hardcore contesters?
I'm not saying <brand X> isn't good. I'm just asking a question. It's not
because the gear is cheaper. There are lots of cheaper rigs out there.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 3:22 PM
To: [hidden email]; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Jer,
I agree. If one were comparing companies then Elecraft comes out on
top full stop - no argument. We were comparing K3 and K3S so the TS59SG
was a good starting point. Remember the standard K3 does not have dual
watch; I think the TS590SG does so if one does not have the second receiver
there is a disadvantage in the K3. However, I am a true blue Elecraft fan
and am most pleased to have the K3. My only intent was to put things into
perspective - $1800 is mucho money to some of our good friends. To me as
well but I could spring to it if needed.

I doubt that my K3 will work any DX station which a TS590SG could not
also work. The differences between K3 and K3S are smaller still. Then
Elecraft allows us to further narrow the gap with upgrades. Some features
mean very little to me such as the ability to go below 160M. Everyone must
make up their own mind but let us not expect a world of difference in
results.

To twist slightly what you said; "I am a fanatical supporter of a
company which gives fanatical support." We are on the same track. Oh
what a back slappers club we are. Cheers and enjoy your Elecraft.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:57
To: 'Doug Turnbull'; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Doug,
I just went through this process. The Kenwood TS590SG was on my list. AT
the end of the day the deciding factors came down to support and
upgradability. The Elecraft support is fanatical and as developments are
made we have the option to update our radios (for the most part). If you
already own a K3 you can progressively update the features you need to the
latest technology. If you don't own one you can buy the latest version which
reflects all updates and developments to date. You also get a warranty. You
may not need the latest developments OR may be able to get a K3 and update
only the things you need less expensive than a new K3S. I would ask how much
your time is worth? The cost difference between the Kenwood and a likewise
equipped K3S was around $1800 or so. When Kenwood comes out with a new
version the value of the TS590SG will drop like a hot rock. If you look at
the value of a used K3 VS what they were selling for prior to the release of
the K3S has the value dropped by the same margin? From what I've seen the
used K3 rigs are still fetching a premium AND they can be progressively
updated.

The Kenwood is probably just fine for some folks. Personally I want
fanatical support and upgradability in addition to the bleeding edge of
performance.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:41 PM
To: 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was
not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer
available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I
believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S.
I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense.
For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced
to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement
in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

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Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT

Re: K3S OR K3

To add to the list: if you're standing on Kingman Reef and the tide is
rising, you probably want a rig that you know well.

I'd bet most who activate rare DXCC locations have K3's at home, for
many of the reasons stated.

On 8/20/2015 1:34 PM, Walter Underwood wrote:
> Two things come to mind:
>
> 1. They are smaller and lighter than other high-end rigs, so easier to transport.
>
> 2. The transmit signals, especially CW, are much cleaner than other rigs, so two operators can transmit on the same band without interfering with each other. For example, CW and phone on 20m.

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Edward R Cole

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

Savings made buying a K3 over K3S may not be that much. Seems that
used K3 are going for 85-90% of new cost (depending a lot on
accessories installed and age, condition, etc.). If you are then
going to install the upgrades to make it close to a K3S, it might not
be that much of a savings. One of the aspects of the K3 that helped
my purchase in 2010 was resale value.

I'm guessing that Elecraft decided to drop the K3 as the K3S is what
most will want and production will be much easier with only one model
to deal with. K2 was/is an entirely different radio than the K3 and
was a true kit for those that wanted that challenge.

But if you can find a K3 offered at 50% of the new cost - snap it up
as you can resell it for 80% and make a nice profit! I have never
seen one offered that low.

73, Ed - KL7UW

To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I
was not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no
longer available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new
K3S. I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra
expense. For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X
improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be
convinced to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X
improvement in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?
<k5dkz>

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Doug Turnbull

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by ae4pb

Jer,
Besides the points already mentioned the K3 will handle very strong
nearby signals better than most other radios. This really becomes
important when everyone in the world is calling you over a few KHz in the
case of CW. The point about clean output greatly helps in that the
interference from other K3 radios on the same site is reduced. The problem
is not so severe for most of us even in contests.

There are many advantages to the K3 which do not need to be
reiterated. For someone with limited budget the ability to start with a
basic radio and add modules over time is also a big help. This last point
has nothing to do with DXpeditions. Time to close.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: 20 August 2015 20:14
To: 'Doug Turnbull'; [hidden email]; 'bs usb';
[hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

One other question I asked. Why do the majority of DXpeditions use Elecraft
K3/S ? Lots of hardcore contesters?
I'm not saying <brand X> isn't good. I'm just asking a question. It's not
because the gear is cheaper. There are lots of cheaper rigs out there.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 3:22 PM
To: [hidden email]; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Jer,
I agree. If one were comparing companies then Elecraft comes out on
top full stop - no argument. We were comparing K3 and K3S so the TS59SG
was a good starting point. Remember the standard K3 does not have dual
watch; I think the TS590SG does so if one does not have the second receiver
there is a disadvantage in the K3. However, I am a true blue Elecraft fan
and am most pleased to have the K3. My only intent was to put things into
perspective - $1800 is mucho money to some of our good friends. To me as
well but I could spring to it if needed.

I doubt that my K3 will work any DX station which a TS590SG could not
also work. The differences between K3 and K3S are smaller still. Then
Elecraft allows us to further narrow the gap with upgrades. Some features
mean very little to me such as the ability to go below 160M. Everyone must
make up their own mind but let us not expect a world of difference in
results.

To twist slightly what you said; "I am a fanatical supporter of a
company which gives fanatical support." We are on the same track. Oh
what a back slappers club we are. Cheers and enjoy your Elecraft.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
[hidden email]
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:57
To: 'Doug Turnbull'; 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Doug,
I just went through this process. The Kenwood TS590SG was on my list. AT
the end of the day the deciding factors came down to support and
upgradability. The Elecraft support is fanatical and as developments are
made we have the option to update our radios (for the most part). If you
already own a K3 you can progressively update the features you need to the
latest technology. If you don't own one you can buy the latest version which
reflects all updates and developments to date. You also get a warranty. You
may not need the latest developments OR may be able to get a K3 and update
only the things you need less expensive than a new K3S. I would ask how much
your time is worth? The cost difference between the Kenwood and a likewise
equipped K3S was around $1800 or so. When Kenwood comes out with a new
version the value of the TS590SG will drop like a hot rock. If you look at
the value of a used K3 VS what they were selling for prior to the release of
the K3S has the value dropped by the same margin? From what I've seen the
used K3 rigs are still fetching a premium AND they can be progressively
updated.

The Kenwood is probably just fine for some folks. Personally I want
fanatical support and upgradability in addition to the bleeding edge of
performance.
Jer

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug
Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 2:41 PM
To: 'bs usb'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

Hi Frank,
I suspect the performance difference between the Kenwood TS590SG and K3
is at most 10%. The performance difference between the K3S and K3 is
smaller still and you can upgrade the K3. Perhaps you do not care about
bands lower than 160M. So purchase a K3 and maybe add the new synch card
later. If you want the best of the best then purchase a K3S and pay much
more. The used price of the K3 is no doubt dropping so it is good value.
If you can afford the Porsche then go for it but it will not get you to the
coffee shop any sooner unless you break the law. At 71 it will not help
you pick up women either for that matter.

Please do not take this as being critical in anyway. It is not.
Some day I may purchase a K3S though it is hard to see why when I have two
K3 fully loaded and KX3. The K3 has the new synthesizer boards - two in my
case because of the second receiver. Elecraft has been very good in
designing the upgrades so that they can be used in the K3. Yes I would
like the Porsche but will never spend the money on one! There are better
things such as the K3S.

73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of bs usb
Sent: 20 August 2015 18:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S OR K3

I know there was a discussion on this subject. I ignored it because I was
not interested in either radio.

Recent events have me interested in either a K3S or K3.

I know the K3 will have to be a used radio because new ones are no longer
available. I am not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing tactic. I
believe the K2 is still in production.

In any case a used K3 can be bought for significantly less than a new K3S.
I am not convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth the extra expense.
For instance, I don't need to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.

Of course if the performance does go to 2X over a K3, I might be convinced
to pay 2X.

So what was the conclusion of the discussion? Do we have a 2X improvement
in the KS3 over the K3 or is it more like 0.1X?

--
Frank-K5DKZ

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by ae4pb

Jer,

DXpeditions use K3/Ss for several reasons.
One being the weight - shipping to far off places costs money.
Second, the transmit phase noise is less than other transceivers. That
allows them to operate CW and SSB on the same bands using stations in
close physical proximity to each other without interference is possible.

Experiences of many of you at Field Day sites with a variety of
transceivers can give you examples of mutual interference between SSB
and CW stations on the same band. With the K3, those problems just do
not exist.

Add to that the dynamic range of the K3 and the superb filtering
provided by the roofing filters and the DSP filtering, and you should
have your answer - the K3 performs well in crowded band conditions, and
that includes picking a specific station out of a pileup.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/20/2015 4:13 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> One other question I asked. Why do the majority of DXpeditions use Elecraft
> K3/S ? Lots of hardcore contesters?
> I'm not saying <brand X> isn't good. I'm just asking a question. It's not
> because the gear is cheaper. There are lots of cheaper rigs out there.
> Jer
>

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wayne burdick

Re: K3S OR K3

Administrator

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

The K3S and K3 also draw a lot less current than your average high-performance desktop radio, typically 900-1200 mA in RX mode. This can greatly extend operating time for lightweight DXpedition, RV, or Field Day stations that are battery powered.

A few other features come into play during field operation:

- four one-touch CW/DATA/voice message memory switches with auto-repeat (M1-M4)

- up to 8 programmable front panel switch macros for doing things like "VFO A->B, VFO B up 2 kHz, turn on split" (etc.) with a single switch press; these can be customized for different kinds of operation

- built in clock/calendar, voltage, and current display (on VFO B)

- built in data modes for casual operation on PSK31 or RTTY without a computer (every Field Day, when I get tired of working CW or SSB, I'll prowl the 20-meter data sub-bands and work stations with the keyer paddle and message memories; you can also use the P3/SVGA with a keyboard)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Aug 20, 2015, at 2:34 PM, "Doug Turnbull" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jer,
> Besides the points already mentioned the K3 will handle very strong
> nearby signals better than most other radios....
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: K3S OR K3

In reply to this post by bs usb

Frank,

IMO the primary incremental improvement of the K3S
over the K3 is the new Synth Board. And that can
be retrofitted into the K3, as I did with mine
some months ago.

73, Phil W7OX

On 8/20/15 11:40 AM, bs usb wrote:

> I know there was a discussion on this subject.
> I ignored it because I was not interested in
> either radio.
>
> Recent events have me interested in either a K3S
> or K3.
>
> I know the K3 will have to be a used radio
> because new ones are no longer available. I am
> not sure why that is. Sounds like a marketing
> tactic. I believe the K2 is still in production.
>
> In any case a used K3 can be bought for
> significantly less than a new K3S. I am not
> convinced that the K3S 'improvements' are worth
> the extra expense. For instance, I don't need
> to be paying 2X for a 0.1X improvement.
>
> Of course if the performance does go to 2X over
> a K3, I might be convinced to pay 2X.
>
> So what was the conclusion of the discussion?
> Do we have a 2X improvement in the KS3 over the
> K3 or is it more like 0.1X?
>