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K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

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ae4pb

K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see that it
can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open my owners
manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for control and PTT.
I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I have a
USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47 connector to the
rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell burning components,
Quickly disconnect the DB9.

I was previously using this serial adapter successfully on a YAESU FT-897D
before I sold the rig to get the K3S.

So now the questions:

1. Why did this apparently experience an issue? I see nothing in the
manual to indicate this requires anything but a standard connection.

2. How much damage has been done to my brand new k3S using the supplied
Elecraft cable and a known good previously good USB to Serial cable (MFJ I
believe).

I'm heartsick. Being the type of person who checks and double checks things
I can find nothing wrong with what I did and yet apparently I've damaged
something.

Tomorrow I'll pull the cover and check the board.

Jerry Moore

AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324

An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

Jerry,

Did you have the USB connection to the K3S still connected while you
also connected the USB to Serial adapter into the RJ-45 dongle?

If so, that is a "No-no". RS-232 (whether from the internal K3 USB to
serial adapter or from an external adapter) is a one to one, point to
point protocol. It must have *only* one driver on the signal lines.
If you connected both at once, you had two drivers on the signal lines,
and those two drivers would "fight with one another", possibly causing
damage.
When one driver is trying to send a mark, the other trying to send a
space, those two signals are of opposite polarity and can cause damage
to one another.

So whether you damaged your external USB to serial adapter or if you
damaged the internal USB to serial adapter in the K3S is indeterminate -
damage could have been done to both.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/22/2015 10:42 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see that it
> can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open my owners
> manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for control and PTT.
> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I have a
> USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47 connector to the
> rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell burning components,
> Quickly disconnect the DB9.
>
>
>
> I was previously using this serial adapter successfully on a YAESU FT-897D
> before I sold the rig to get the K3S.
>
>
>
> So now the questions:
>
> 1. Why did this apparently experience an issue? I see nothing in the
> manual to indicate this requires anything but a standard connection.
>
> 2. How much damage has been done to my brand new k3S using the supplied
> Elecraft cable and a known good previously good USB to Serial cable (MFJ I
> believe).
>
>
>
> I'm heartsick. Being the type of person who checks and double checks things
> I can find nothing wrong with what I did and yet apparently I've damaged
> something.
>
>
>
> Tomorrow I'll pull the cover and check the board.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Moore
>
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>
> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Lyle Johnson

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

In reply to this post by ae4pb

Hello Jerry!

I am not sure what you mean by "I'm already using the USB for control so
will just use it for PTT. "

You can certainly use USB for audio and RS232 for serial control. If you
use RS232 for serial control, you need to set up the menu for the data
rate. You must also use RS232 for RTS and DTR in that case.

If you set up for USB for serial control,then you must use RTS and DTR
over USB as well.

I have plugged in USB<->RS232 cables between my computer and the KIO3B
using the supplied RJ-45 <-> DE-9 cable and it worked fine. I have also
done this using USB for audio.

No smoke ever escaped during all of this testing and use.

I cannot diagnose what may have failed or why, but it sounds like the
computer system may have a different power ground return than the radio
system and there may have been current flowing though the RS232/USB
connection as a result.

Hooking a serial port to the supplied serial port cable with the menu
selecting RS232 should cause no problems, and using USB with the menu
selecting USB should cause no problems.

I have had things hooked up and had the menu in the incorrect selection
(RS232 but only USB physically connected, or USB with only RS232
physically connected) with no physical damage, though of course the rig
did not communicate with the application under those circumstances.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see that it
> can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open my owners
> manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for control and PTT.
> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I have a
> USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47 connector to the
> rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell burning components,
> Quickly disconnect the DB9.

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ae4pb

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

The manual doesn't indicate that you can't have both the USB and RS232
connected at the same time. In fact the manual states that you can connect
the RS232 specifically for PTT. The RS232 isn't going to be used for rig
control, only PTT. If this is an unacceptable configuration on the K3S then
the book needs to be properly written.

I'll pull the covers at lunch and see what the smell is.
-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don
Wilhelm
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:25 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

Jerry,

Did you have the USB connection to the K3S still connected while you also
connected the USB to Serial adapter into the RJ-45 dongle?

If so, that is a "No-no". RS-232 (whether from the internal K3 USB to
serial adapter or from an external adapter) is a one to one, point to point
protocol. It must have *only* one driver on the signal lines.
If you connected both at once, you had two drivers on the signal lines, and
those two drivers would "fight with one another", possibly causing damage.
When one driver is trying to send a mark, the other trying to send a space,
those two signals are of opposite polarity and can cause damage to one
another.

So whether you damaged your external USB to serial adapter or if you damaged
the internal USB to serial adapter in the K3S is indeterminate - damage
could have been done to both.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/22/2015 10:42 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see
> that it can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open
> my owners manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for
control and PTT.

> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I
> have a USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47
> connector to the rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell
> burning components, Quickly disconnect the DB9.
>
>
>
> I was previously using this serial adapter successfully on a YAESU
> FT-897D before I sold the rig to get the K3S.
>
>
>
> So now the questions:
>
> 1. Why did this apparently experience an issue? I see nothing in the
> manual to indicate this requires anything but a standard connection.
>
> 2. How much damage has been done to my brand new k3S using the supplied
> Elecraft cable and a known good previously good USB to Serial cable
> (MFJ I believe).
>
>
>
> I'm heartsick. Being the type of person who checks and double checks
> things I can find nothing wrong with what I did and yet apparently
> I've damaged something.
>
>
>
> Tomorrow I'll pull the cover and check the board.
>
>
>
>
>
> Jerry Moore
>
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>
> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced,
> and Patriotic.
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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ae4pb

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

In reply to this post by Lyle Johnson

What I'm trying to do:
1. USB for audio and serial control.
2. RS232 for PTT keying.

Everything is the same power, I'll pull the cover and reconnect everything
at lunch and see what I get.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle
Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 1:35 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

Hello Jerry!

I am not sure what you mean by "I'm already using the USB for control so
will just use it for PTT. "

You can certainly use USB for audio and RS232 for serial control. If you use
RS232 for serial control, you need to set up the menu for the data rate.
You must also use RS232 for RTS and DTR in that case.

If you set up for USB for serial control,then you must use RTS and DTR over
USB as well.

I have plugged in USB<->RS232 cables between my computer and the KIO3B using
the supplied RJ-45 <-> DE-9 cable and it worked fine. I have also done this
using USB for audio.

No smoke ever escaped during all of this testing and use.

I cannot diagnose what may have failed or why, but it sounds like the
computer system may have a different power ground return than the radio
system and there may have been current flowing though the RS232/USB
connection as a result.

Hooking a serial port to the supplied serial port cable with the menu
selecting RS232 should cause no problems, and using USB with the menu
selecting USB should cause no problems.

I have had things hooked up and had the menu in the incorrect selection
(RS232 but only USB physically connected, or USB with only RS232 physically
connected) with no physical damage, though of course the rig did not
communicate with the application under those circumstances.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see
> that it can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open
> my owners manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for
control and PTT.
> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I
> have a USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47
> connector to the rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell
> burning components, Quickly disconnect the DB9.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

In reply to this post by ae4pb

I was making the assumption that the situation in the K3S was similar to
what would happen if you tried to connect two RS-232 ports together as
would happen if you used a "Y" cable. I know that will not work, and
because one driver can be trying to drive a positive voltage on the
signal at the same time another driver is driving with a negative
voltage. Not only will that not work, but the drivers can damage each
other.
But then I do not have detailed schematics.

Lyle has responded that he has connected both the USB and an RS-232
adapter with no problems (he should know since he is one of the K3S
designers), so the implementation in the K3S apparently has designed in
protection for that situation.

Sorry if I caused alarm unnecessarily.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/23/2015 7:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> The manual doesn't indicate that you can't have both the USB and RS232
> connected at the same time. In fact the manual states that you can connect
> the RS232 specifically for PTT. The RS232 isn't going to be used for rig
> control, only PTT. If this is an unacceptable configuration on the K3S then
> the book needs to be properly written.
>
> I'll pull the covers at lunch and see what the smell is.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don
> Wilhelm
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue
>
> Jerry,
>
> Did you have the USB connection to the K3S still connected while you also
> connected the USB to Serial adapter into the RJ-45 dongle?
>
> If so, that is a "No-no". RS-232 (whether from the internal K3 USB to
> serial adapter or from an external adapter) is a one to one, point to point
> protocol. It must have *only* one driver on the signal lines.
> If you connected both at once, you had two drivers on the signal lines, and
> those two drivers would "fight with one another", possibly causing damage.
> When one driver is trying to send a mark, the other trying to send a space,
> those two signals are of opposite polarity and can cause damage to one
> another.
>
> So whether you damaged your external USB to serial adapter or if you damaged
> the internal USB to serial adapter in the K3S is indeterminate - damage
> could have been done to both.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/22/2015 10:42 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see
>> that it can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I open
>> my owners manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection for
> control and PTT.
>> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I
>> have a USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47
>> connector to the rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell
>> burning components, Quickly disconnect the DB9.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was previously using this serial adapter successfully on a YAESU
>> FT-897D before I sold the rig to get the K3S.
>>
>>
>>
>> So now the questions:
>>
>> 1. Why did this apparently experience an issue? I see nothing in the
>> manual to indicate this requires anything but a standard connection.
>>
>> 2. How much damage has been done to my brand new k3S using the supplied
>> Elecraft cable and a known good previously good USB to Serial cable
>> (MFJ I believe).
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm heartsick. Being the type of person who checks and double checks
>> things I can find nothing wrong with what I did and yet apparently
>> I've damaged something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tomorrow I'll pull the cover and check the board.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry Moore
>>
>> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>>
>> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced,
>> and Patriotic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message
> delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

Jerry Moore

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

No worries Don, I thought it should work as well. I'm just not keen on
having to repair/replace the I/O board on a rig I've had 1 week today using
the manual and supplied cable. Maybe I'm mistaken and I didn't smell
something in the rig. I've been in electronics since 1981 with formal
education and well before that as younger kid. Maybe I'm just getting old
and starting to smell things....

Jerry Moore
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 8:19 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

I was making the assumption that the situation in the K3S was similar to
what would happen if you tried to connect two RS-232 ports together as would
happen if you used a "Y" cable. I know that will not work, and because one
driver can be trying to drive a positive voltage on the signal at the same
time another driver is driving with a negative voltage. Not only will that
not work, but the drivers can damage each other.
But then I do not have detailed schematics.

Lyle has responded that he has connected both the USB and an RS-232 adapter
with no problems (he should know since he is one of the K3S designers), so
the implementation in the K3S apparently has designed in protection for that
situation.

Sorry if I caused alarm unnecessarily.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/23/2015 7:13 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> The manual doesn't indicate that you can't have both the USB and RS232
> connected at the same time. In fact the manual states that you can
> connect the RS232 specifically for PTT. The RS232 isn't going to be
> used for rig control, only PTT. If this is an unacceptable
> configuration on the K3S then the book needs to be properly written.
>
> I'll pull the covers at lunch and see what the smell is.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 12:25 AM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue
>
> Jerry,
>
> Did you have the USB connection to the K3S still connected while you
> also connected the USB to Serial adapter into the RJ-45 dongle?
>
> If so, that is a "No-no". RS-232 (whether from the internal K3 USB to
> serial adapter or from an external adapter) is a one to one, point to
> point protocol. It must have *only* one driver on the signal lines.
> If you connected both at once, you had two drivers on the signal
> lines, and those two drivers would "fight with one another", possibly

causing damage.

> When one driver is trying to send a mark, the other trying to send a
> space, those two signals are of opposite polarity and can cause damage
> to one another.
>
> So whether you damaged your external USB to serial adapter or if you
> damaged the internal USB to serial adapter in the K3S is indeterminate
> - damage could have been done to both.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/22/2015 10:42 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> So my new K3S is running well and I'm setting up my software and see
>> that it can do digital modes and control PTT using a comm port. I
>> open my owners manual, page 20, which says I can use that connection
>> for
> control and PTT.
>> I'm already using the USB for control so will just use it for PTT. I
>> have a USB to serial adapter so I install it, plug in the RJ47
>> connector to the rig, mate the DB 9 connectors and immediately smell
>> burning components, Quickly disconnect the DB9.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was previously using this serial adapter successfully on a YAESU
>> FT-897D before I sold the rig to get the K3S.
>>
>>
>>
>> So now the questions:
>>
>> 1. Why did this apparently experience an issue? I see nothing in the
>> manual to indicate this requires anything but a standard connection.
>>
>> 2. How much damage has been done to my brand new k3S using the supplied
>> Elecraft cable and a known good previously good USB to Serial cable
>> (MFJ I believe).
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm heartsick. Being the type of person who checks and double checks
>> things I can find nothing wrong with what I did and yet apparently
>> I've damaged something.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tomorrow I'll pull the cover and check the board.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jerry Moore
>>
>> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
>>
>> An Amatuer is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced,
>> and Patriotic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email
>> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
> [hidden email]
>
>

Lyle Johnson

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

In reply to this post by ae4pb

That won't work. Nothing will be damaged.

The input signal group TO the radio from the outside world (RTS, DTR,
serial data) are physically switched as a group between the RS232 buffer
chip and the USB<-> serial chip.

In USB mode, data to the radio, along with RTS and DTR, will only be
recognized from the USB port. Data FROM the radio will be available on
both the USB port and the RS232 port. This allows you to use USB to a
computer, for example, while having an antenna tuner or SteppIR antenna
or other external devices "listen" to the radio data.

In the RS232 mode, all three signals are switched as a group to the
RS232 buffers. Again, serial date FROM the radio is simultaneously
present on the USB and RS232 ports, though in this case the data on the
USB port will only be meaningful if the RS232 port is set to 38,400 bps
because the internal USB<->serial chip is set to communicate internally
for 38,400 bps at all times.

The USB mode or RS2323 mode are selected from the RS232 menu. If a data
rate is displayed (4800, 9600, 19200 or 38400) then the RS232 mode is in
effect. If the display is "USb" then the USB mode is selected.

Similarly, LINE OUT audio (from the radio) is always sent to both the
USB port AND the analog LINE OUT jack on the rear of the radio. if
nothing is plugged into the LINE IN jack, then audio in LINE mode will
be taken from the USB port. If a plug is detected at the LIEN IN analog
jack, then USB audio will be ignored and audio will be expected from the
analog LINE IN jack.

I'm sorry if the documentation in the manual was not clear on these points.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> What I'm trying to do:
> 1. USB for audio and serial control.
> 2. RS232 for PTT keying.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

ae4pb

Re: K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

Ok, the manual is wrong. I got it..ty ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lyle
Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 10:48 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S PTT using DTR/DTS issue

That won't work. Nothing will be damaged.

The input signal group TO the radio from the outside world (RTS, DTR, serial
data) are physically switched as a group between the RS232 buffer chip and
the USB<-> serial chip.

In USB mode, data to the radio, along with RTS and DTR, will only be
recognized from the USB port. Data FROM the radio will be available on both
the USB port and the RS232 port. This allows you to use USB to a computer,
for example, while having an antenna tuner or SteppIR antenna or other
external devices "listen" to the radio data.

In the RS232 mode, all three signals are switched as a group to the
RS232 buffers. Again, serial date FROM the radio is simultaneously present
on the USB and RS232 ports, though in this case the data on the USB port
will only be meaningful if the RS232 port is set to 38,400 bps because the
internal USB<->serial chip is set to communicate internally for 38,400 bps
at all times.

The USB mode or RS2323 mode are selected from the RS232 menu. If a data
rate is displayed (4800, 9600, 19200 or 38400) then the RS232 mode is in
effect. If the display is "USb" then the USB mode is selected.

Similarly, LINE OUT audio (from the radio) is always sent to both the USB
port AND the analog LINE OUT jack on the rear of the radio. if nothing is
plugged into the LINE IN jack, then audio in LINE mode will be taken from
the USB port. If a plug is detected at the LIEN IN analog jack, then USB
audio will be ignored and audio will be expected from the analog LINE IN
jack.

I'm sorry if the documentation in the manual was not clear on these points.

73,

Lyle KK7P

> What I'm trying to do:
> 1. USB for audio and serial control.
> 2. RS232 for PTT keying.

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