K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

This depends on the monitor level and sensitive and proximity of the
microphone. While I do not typically use a speaker I am sure that I have
experienced monitor feedback with the K3S. All of my previous transceivers
had a monitor switch which made it easy to toggle off.

John KK9A


From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sat Apr 8 22:36:39 EDT 2017

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV

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[Edward R Cole]

Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice -
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
 > At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
 > objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
 > only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
 > front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

     ... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]

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[Elecraft mailing list]

You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent delay to get use to. 

Mel, K6KBE


      From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
 To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
   
Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice -
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
 > At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
 > objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
 > only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
 > front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  [hidden email]

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[Josh Fiden]

SSB on EME? Wow!

73,
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> On Apr 9, 2017, at 4:13 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent delay to get use to.  
>
> Mel, K6KBE
>

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[Edward R Cole]

Mel,

Guess you are unaware, but I am on 6m-eme, 2m-eme, and 23cm-eme.  The
RTLT is approx 2.5 seconds.  But voice is rarely used and eme
stations rarely operate in Duplex.  Of course one can receive your
own reflected signal for a short duration; that is called receiving your echo.

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 03:13 PM 4/9/2017, Mel Farrer wrote:

>You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have
>a decent delay to get use to.
>
>Mel, K6KBE
>
>
>
>From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
>To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
>
>Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:
>
>Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
>(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
>slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
>hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
>your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as it were.
>
>For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay
>produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station
>can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
>light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round
>trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
>the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your
>voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
>challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  I would
>sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at a normal
>speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.
>
>Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
>1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
>2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
>3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to be heard.
>
>Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice -
>which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when
>transmitting.
>
>Ed - KL7UW
>
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
>Message-ID:
><<mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
>On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> > At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> > objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
> > only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
> > front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.
>
>There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
>headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
>are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
>with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
>feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
>K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
>his own configuration!
>
>73,
>
>     ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>73, Ed - KL7UW
>   <http://www.kl7uw.com/>http://www.kl7uw.com
>Dubus-NA Business mail:
>   <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
><http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: <http://www.qsl.net/>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
><http://www.qsl.net/donate.html>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to <mailto:[hidden email]>[hidden email]
>

73, Ed - KL7UW
   http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
   [hidden email]
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[Elecraft mailing list]

Yes, back in the 70's, Yes, I am long in the tooth.  One of my friends up north was just getting on the air EME and he had a SUBSTANTIAL station and antenna and started calling, " Hello, hello"  and someone answered! he kept it up and then started to listen to the returned signal then he said, " I think I am talking to myself".   He recorded it and we all laughed at one on the early West Coast VHF conferences.  Those were the days my friends.....
Mel, K6KBE


      From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
 To: Mel Farrer <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
 Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 5:20 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
   
Mel,

Guess you are unaware, but I am on 6m-eme, 2m-eme, and 23cm-eme. The RTLT is approx 2.5 seconds.  But voice is rarely used and emestations rarely operate in Duplex.  Of course one can receive yourown reflected signal for a short duration; that is called receiving yourecho.

73, Ed - KL7UW

At 03:13 PM 4/9/2017, Mel Farrer wrote:

You think that delay issomething try EME.  At least there you have a decent delay to getuse to. 

Mel, K6KBE



From: Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 9, 2017 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Just supplemental comments to what Joe has written:

Having monitor of speech is certainly important for speaking properly
(or singing).  Note that speech able people who lose their hearing
slowly also loose the ability to talk properly.  If you are hard of
hearing you might talk too loud; happens to me on occasion; its just
your neural feedback loop doing "human ALC", as itwere.

For those who operate voice modes on satellites the time delay
produced on monitoring your transmission with a full duplex station
can get madding.  The delay is caused mainly by RTLT (round trip
light time) which is the time delay for the signal to travel round
trip from the satellite.  For HEO (high Earth orbiting) satellites
the range gets to a point to experience significant delay in your
voice monitored in the downlink Rx.  On AO-10/13/40 it could be
challenging to talk properly hearing your own voice delayed.  Iwould
sound like: hello-ello, how-ow, are-re, you-ou.  Say that at anormal
speaking rate and you will get the idea what it sounded like.

Full duplex operation is quite useful in satellite operating:
1.  Avoid talking on top of another station
2.  Making frequency adjustment for Doppler
3.  Verifying you have an adequate uplink into the system to beheard.

Many learned to compensate (mentally disregarding their own voice -
which is difficult), or turning down the Monitored audio level when
transmitting.

Ed - KL7UW

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker.The
> only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic rightin
> front of the external speaker with MON set at or nearmaximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable inthe
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on.  However, if one is using low sensitivityheadphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo.  Rather than insisting on a change in the waythe
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  [hidden email]

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 73, Ed - KL7UW
 http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  [hidden email]

   
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[Wes Stewart-2]

I worked W5UN on two-way SSB on 2M EME.

A local friend, John, W7BBM, has a homebrew(!) 30 foot dish on 1296, and up, and
routinely says, "Hello moon" and receives speaker-quality returns.


On 4/9/2017 4:36 PM, Josh wrote:

> SSB on EME? Wow!
>
> 73,
> Josh W6XU
>
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>> On Apr 9, 2017, at 4:13 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> You think that delay is something try EME.  At least there you have a decent delay to get use to.
>>
>> Mel, K6KBE
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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[Wes Stewart-2]

On morning (probably about 1980) I was beamed west at setting moon looking for
Asia on 2M.  I heard a station calling CQ and said to myself, that's Dave's
(W5UN) frequency.  Sure enough, it was Dave calling CQ.  So I tuned off him and
heard another station calling CQ.  I listened and was surprised to hear Dave
again.  I tuned back to the other frequency and Dave was still there, albeit
with a different delay.  It finally dawned on me I was hearing him off the back
of the antenna on tropo and off the moon from the front side.  Doppler and the
time delay made it sound like two different stations.

Wes  N7WS

On 4/9/2017 5:29 PM, Mel Farrer via Elecraft wrote:
> Yes, back in the 70's, Yes, I am long in the tooth.  One of my friends up north was just getting on the air EME and he had a SUBSTANTIAL station and antenna and started calling, " Hello, hello"  and someone answered! he kept it up and then started to listen to the returned signal then he said, " I think I am talking to myself".   He recorded it and we all laughed at one on the early West Coast VHF conferences.  Those were the days my friends.....
> Mel, K6KBE
>

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