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K3S SSB TX monitor

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Richard Lamont

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:

> It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.
>
> What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
> function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
> of a macro.
>
> The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this. And yes, I've been
> using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.

Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!

When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
speakers.

When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
headphones, but not the speakers.

I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.

The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
and common-sense requirement.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Phil Daniells, GJ4CBQ-2

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Thank you Richard.

Having slept on it, I realised that my earlier retraction, as a result
of Joe's posting, was somewhat hasty. I blame tiredness.

It all hinges on Joe's statement:

"Richard admits that he does not need the speakers when he is using
headphones/operating SSB"

Re-reading the posts this morning confirmed that you hadn't actually
said that.

My posting yesterday evening was based on the understanding that you
wanted to operate SSB using either speaker or phones. Thanks for
confirming this. Prior to my original posting I tested CONFIG:SPRK+PH
on my own K3 and confirmed that it didn't toggle the monitor function.

73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.

On 08/04/2017 10:24, Richard Lamont wrote:

> On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:
>
>> It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.
>>
>> What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
>> function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
>> of a macro.
>>
>> The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this. And yes, I've been
>> using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.
>
> Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!
>
> When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
> weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
> the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
> speakers.
>
> When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
> headphones, but not the speakers.
>
> I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
> twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
> are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.
>
> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
> and common-sense requirement.
>
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA

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Martin Sole-3

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Richard Lamont

I'd like this functionality as well.

Phones either plugged in or not, RX audio only out of the speaker, RX
audio and TX monitor in the phones.

Maybe a toggle in the settings for the monitor, speaker, phones or both.
Monitor level remains as set.

Martin, HS0ZED

On 08/04/2017 12:24, Richard Lamont wrote:

> On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:
>
>> It might be worth your while re-reading Richard's posts.
>>
>> What he is asking for is the **automatic** toggling of the monitor
>> function on insertion and removal of the headphone plug, without the use
>> of a macro.
>>
>> The CONFIG:SPRK+PH setting does not achieve this. And yes, I've been
>> using the PF2 key in the manner you describe for some years now.
> Thank you. At last, someone has actually read my post!
>
> When operating SSB, I like to listen on speakers. If I need to fish a
> weak one out of the crud, I'll grab the headphones and plug them into
> the front panel jack. At the end of that QSO, I'll unplug and go back to
> speakers.
>
> When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
> headphones, but not the speakers.
>
> I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
> twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
> are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.
>
> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
> and common-sense requirement.
>
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Richard Lamont

I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an opinion.

Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
my experience) requirement. There is often a slight phase shift and
it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
satisfied with the silence.

If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're rather
good at doing that. Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an unknown.
However stridently insisting that any particular way is common sense
that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way to endear oneself
to those that are capable of creating a means to have it your way.

There IS a work around and you're aware of it. The vinegar:honey rule
applies. Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective based.

Rick wa6nhc

On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:

> On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:
>
> When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
> headphones, but not the speakers.
>
> I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
> twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
> are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.
>
> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
> and common-sense requirement.
>
>

Phil Daniells, GJ4CBQ-2

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Rick,

Just to point out that I didn't write that. I suspect something's gone
awry with the nesting.

73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.

On 08/04/2017 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an
> opinion.
>
> Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
> my experience) requirement. There is often a slight phase shift and
> it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
> satisfied with the silence.
>
> If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
> daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're rather
> good at doing that. Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an unknown.
> However stridently insisting that any particular way is common sense
> that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way to endear oneself
> to those that are capable of creating a means to have it your way.
>
> There IS a work around and you're aware of it. The vinegar:honey rule
> applies. Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective based.
>
> Rick wa6nhc
>
>
> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>> On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:
>>
>> When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
>> headphones, but not the speakers.
>>
>> I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
>> twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
>> are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.
>>
>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>> and common-sense requirement.
>>

Richard Lamont

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

On 08/04/17 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; its an
> opinion.
>
> Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
> my experience) requirement. There is often a slight phase shift and
> it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
> satisfied with the silence.

Whether or not there's a 'need' to hear your own voice in the headphones
during transmit depends partly on the headphones. The better the
isolation of ambient sound they provide, the greater the attenuation of
the natural mouth-to-ear path. The two models of headphones I have both
provide excellent isolation of ambient sound. That's partly why I bought
them. (Originally for audio production work, not amateur radio.)
(Sennheiser HD25 and Beyerdynamic DT100.)

I find that so much isolation makes it difficult to speak. It feels as
though I've suddenly gone deaf.

The need to provide one's own voice in headphones, and keep it out of
any speakers in the same room, was recognised by radio broadcasters
decades ago. Pretty well every broadcast studio that's ever been built
caters for it.

I disagree that a 'slight phase shift' is distracting. A delay (of tens
of milliseconds or more) is distracting. Elecraft caters for this with
CONFIG:TXMON NOR or FAST. I use the latter and it sounds great.

> If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
> daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're
> rather good at doing that. Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an
> unknown. However stridently insisting that any particular way is
> common sense that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way
> to endear oneself to those that are capable of creating a means to
> have it your way.

I'm not sure quite what your evidence is for any 'majority belief'.
And if the need to keep microphone audio out of the speaker is not
common sense ... then what is? Does not every engineer learn this at his
mother's knee? My pointing this out is not a criticism of Elecraft. (If
anything, Elecraft is ahead of the game by providing voice sidetone at all.)

> There IS a work around and you're aware of it. The vinegar:honey
> rule applies. Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective
> based.

I am aware of the workarounds. I am also aware why they don't work for
me. You might not necessarily be aware of the latter, but thank you anyway.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Luis V Romero (mobile)

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Richard Lamont

All:

As a broadcast professional, I completely agree with the need to hear one's
voice as side tone in your headset while speaking. Not hearing this does
make one feel deaf. This is a common feature in professional intercom
systems as well as music performance monitoring for singers and
instrumentalists and even your telephone! It's not really a "nice to have":
In my opinion, it's a "must have".

Yes, the rig doesn't do this automatically. Yes you have to twiddle some
knobs to get it done. However, there is a very simple solution that allows
this feature requirement with ONE BUTTON PUSH. Yes it requires an external
device, but it also adds additional flexibility and features for an
insignificant price vs the cost of the radio.

This device is the Behringer MIX800 modular 4 channel dual stereo input
headphone mixer.

I have had this device in my K3 audio path for 9 years now. I feed the line
out of the K3 into this device. Since I have a KRX3, I feed the main RX
into input #1's right channel and the second receiver into the left channel.
I set the radio to give me main in both ears and second receiver in left ear
only. Since the device has two inputs, the second input is left unused and
becomes "input mute". I don't use the radio's front panel headset jack for
headphones at all.

This device has four independent headphone level outputs with 1/4inch stereo
jacks on both the front panel and the back panel. Each channel has an
independent level control and a/b input switching. I feed channel 1 out to
my station speakers (Yamaha self powered computer speakers) via the rear
panel jack. I feed Channel 2 to my headset via this channel's front jack. I
feed channel 3 to my audio recorder using the rear jack. Channel 4 is
unused, but permanently wired and ready to use as an output for anything
with just a 1/4inch stereo plug.

A push button on each channel controls routing/muting to each individual
line level output feed. When I need to mute my speakers, I press the
channel 1 button. The green light goes out, and my speakers mute. When I
don't need to record the output, I press the channel 3 button, the green
light goes out and the channel is muted. If I don't want to feed my
headset, I press the channel 2 button and my headset mutes (but both the
speakers and the recorder feeds stay on if I have them selected to be on.
All four outputs can be controlled individually in any combination of on or
off state at the same time, speakers, headset, recorder and auxiliary audio
because each is individually switched.

The BEST thing about this is that each channel has its own level pot. This
means that I can have the recorder level set and vary both the speaker level
and the headset level INDEPENDENTLY. I don't run monitor very loud at all at
any time, so I don't get feedback with monitor on the speaker line when I
use speakers. When I record I get BOTH my transmit audio AND the receiver
audio, and in SPLIT I get BOTH the TX frequency AND the receive frequency on
all recordings. An added feature is that the headset mixer has its own
BALANCE control, so I can vary the ratio of the second receiver in my left
ear only vs the level of the main receiver in BOTH ears. with one pot, yet
STILL have independent output level when I want it with the radio's
concentric AF level pot. So I can have both features on at the same time:
Not possible with just the radio, it offers either one OR the other (Balance
OR Independent receiver out on the concentric pots).

If you have a second op, you can use the fourth channel for their headset
and they then have their own individual level control separate from yours,
your speakers and your recorder AND THEY WILL HEAR YOUR VOICE as well as the
receiver output. This is nice for things like Field Day or Contesting with a
"partner".

It's really the best $40USD I have ever spent on my station. BTW,
absolutely no RF feedback into this unit on any band using my KPA500 at full
power. No notice of its wall wart power supply in my receiver either.

I believe this device will solve this need for the rig as is. While it
would be nice to have this all built in to the radio, its currently not, and
I believe it wouldn't be that high on the priority list for development. But
this solution is both cost effective and offers additional functionality for
a very little capital outlay.

It works for me here. It may work for you if you require this
functionality.

73

Lu Romero - W4LT
Tampa, FL
K-Line system since 2010

----------------------------------------XXX---------------------------------
--------------

Rick,

Just to point out that I didn't write that. I suspect something's gone
awry with the nesting.

73,
Phil, GJ4CBQ.

On 08/04/2017 15:42, Rick WA6NHC wrote:

> I'll make two comments and no insult is intended or implied; it's an
> opinion.
>
> Your 'need' to hear your own voice during transmit is not a common (to
> my experience) requirement. There is often a slight phase shift and
> it's distracting to most so they simply mute the receiver and are
> satisfied with the silence.
>
> If it is (as you've stated twice now) a 'common sense requirement' I
> daresay that Elecraft would have already implemented it; they're rather
> good at doing that. Perhaps it's simple to allow, that's an unknown.
> However stridently insisting that any particular way is common sense
> that is contrary to the majority belief is not the way to endear oneself
> to those that are capable of creating a means to have it your way.
>
> There IS a work around and you're aware of it. The vinegar:honey rule
> applies. Perfection is an illusion because it's perspective based.
>
> Rick wa6nhc
>
>
> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>> On 07/04/17 20:19, Phil, GJ4CBQ wrote:
>>
>> When I transmit, I need to hear my own voice as sidetone in the
>> headphones, but not the speakers.
>>
>> I want the rig to do this *automatically* without button presses, knob
>> twiddles, the use of different sockets or any external hardware. These
>> are all obvious but unsatisfactory workarounds.
>>
>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>> and common-sense requirement.
>>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Rick WA6NHC-2

> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>> and common-sense requirement.

It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
*THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
*headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).

Changing the operation of the K3/K3S to enable monitor *only* when the
headphones are in use would cripple current operation *and* make it
impossible to monitor data and/or CW modes via the speaker.

As pointed out by many in this discussion, using CONFIG:SPKR+PH by
assigning it to a PF/Macro key to turn off the speaker when one is
using the headphones is a useful alternative. That solution has been
used by many operators who leave their headphones connected at all
times *for many years*.

When you start proclaiming a "simple and common sense requirement" take
a little time to determine if the hardware will even support such
nonsense! Note: *none* of the YaeComWood transceivers support such a
"simple and common sense requirement" - they all feed their headphones
from the speaker amplifier through a mechanical switch and current
limiting resistors! At least the K3 design has enough sense to shut
off the high current speaker amplifier when it is not needed!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

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Richard Lamont

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>> and common-sense requirement.
>
> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
> call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
> the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).

I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
again. Thanks for the reminder.

On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.

There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
of the speaker amplifier U1.

So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is true:

Is the rig on a voice mode?
Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
Is the rig transmitting?
Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?

If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.

73,
Richard G4DYA
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Dave Fugleberg

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
at the time. There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.

2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.

At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57. I just tested
the two scenarios above. For the record, my normal configuration is to use
the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on. I do have PF1
set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
shack. I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting. I
have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
I never do.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.

Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from the
front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
placement.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> >
> >> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
> >>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
> >>> and common-sense requirement.
> >
> > It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
> > what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
> > call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
> > the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
> > DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
> > LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
> > U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
> > *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
> > *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>
> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>
> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>
> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>
> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
> true:
>
> Is the rig on a voice mode?
> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
> Is the rig transmitting?
> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>
> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Mike Harris-9

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

Hi,

I use the rear panel jacks for my CM500 headset and I hear TX monitor in
both configurations.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
> the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
> through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Richard Lamont

On 4/8/2017 2:02 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:
> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier.
> This hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an
> option to do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of
> circumstances istrue:
>
> Is the rig on a voice mode?
> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
> Is the rig transmitting?
> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>
> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker
> amplifier.

That is still a failure mode for all those who leave a headset (or
headphones) connected all the time but only put them on when using
a headset mic. There is no way for the rig to to know if the device
connected to the front or rear headphone jack are 1) headphones only
only or 2) a headset (with mic) and 3) if the headset mic is actually
in use.

Yes, it it possible to turn off the speaker amplifier but there is
still no sensor that will tell if the headphones are actually in use
just like the YaeComWood mechanical switch can only tell if a plug
is inserted in the jack.

The speaker amplifier is currently disabled whenever headphones are
connected to either jack with CONFIG:SPkR+PH=No. Disabling the speaker
amplifier whenever headphones are connected to either jack is
*unacceptable* to hundreds of other users who routinely leave headsets
connected - particularly those who use headsets connected to the rear
panel jacks (and before you say "mute on connecting to the front
headset jack" - the headset switches are also connected in parallel).

You are looking for a solution that is unique to your own situation
and would inconvenience hundreds of other users simply because you
are too lazy to program a PF/Macro to toggle CONFIG:SPKR+PH when
you use a headset.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/8/2017 2:02 PM, Richard Lamont wrote:

> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>>> and common-sense requirement.
>>
>> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
>> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
>> call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
>> the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
>> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
>> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
>> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
>> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
>> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>
> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>
> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>
> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>
> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is true:
>
> Is the rig on a voice mode?
> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
> Is the rig transmitting?
> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>
> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>
>
> 73,
> Richard G4DYA
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Dave Fugleberg

On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
> through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
> audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
> not.

That is *NOT* my experience. With 5.57, the front and rear panel
headphone jacks behave identically here. You may be confusing the
Phones and Line Out jacks.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

> I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
> and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
> 1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
> SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
> used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
> Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
> at the time. There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
> whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.
>
> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
> the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
> through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.
>
>
> At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57. I just tested
> the two scenarios above. For the record, my normal configuration is to use
> the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on. I do have PF1
> set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
> shack. I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting. I
> have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
> I never do.
>
> I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.
>
> Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from the
> front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
> speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
> placement.
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>>>> and common-sense requirement.
>>>
>>> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
>>> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
>>> call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
>>> the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
>>> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
>>> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
>>> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
>>> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
>>> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>>
>> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
>> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>>
>> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
>> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
>> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>>
>> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
>> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
>> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
>> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>>
>> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
>> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
>> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
>> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
>> true:
>>
>> Is the rig on a voice mode?
>> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
>> Is the rig transmitting?
>> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>>
>> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>>
>>
>> 73,
>> Richard G4DYA
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Richard Lamont

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

On 08/04/17 21:21, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> You are looking for a solution that is unique to your own situation
> and would inconvenience hundreds of other users simply because you
> are too lazy to program a PF/Macro to toggle CONFIG:SPKR+PH when
> you use a headset.

Which part of the word "option" do you not understand?

73,
Richard G4DYA

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Dave Fugleberg

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

OK, I just ran my test again, but this time turned the monitor up all the
way, and i did indeed hear monitor audio in the speakers. I stand
corrected, and sorry for muddying the waters.

No, I wasn't confusing Phones and Line Out.

At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not objectionable
(or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The only way I could
induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in front of the external
speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

I can't honestly think of any reason one would want TX monitor audio in a
loudspeaker, but I guess that's the way it works, so somebody must think
it's a good idea. I can't say I've ever noticed it until doing this test.
Whether it results in audio feedback depends on your monitor level, your
mic, your speakers, and the placement of mic and speakers relative to each
other.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>
>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
>> through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
>> audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
>> not.
>>
>
> That is *NOT* my experience. With 5.57, the front and rear panel
> headphone jacks behave identically here. You may be confusing the
> Phones and Line Out jacks.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>
>> I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
>> and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
>> 1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
>> SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
>> used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
>> Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
>> at the time. There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
>> whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.
>>
>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
>> the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
>> through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.
>>
>>
>> At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57. I just tested
>> the two scenarios above. For the record, my normal configuration is to
>> use
>> the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on. I do have PF1
>> set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
>> shack. I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.
>> I
>> have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
>> I never do.
>>
>> I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.
>>
>> Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from
>> the
>> front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
>> speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
>> placement.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>>>>> and common-sense requirement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
>>>> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
>>>> call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
>>>> the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
>>>> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
>>>> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
>>>> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
>>>> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
>>>> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
>>> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>>>
>>> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
>>> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
>>> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>>>
>>> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
>>> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
>>> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
>>> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>>>
>>> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
>>> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
>>> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
>>> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
>>> true:
>>>
>>> Is the rig on a voice mode?
>>> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
>>> Is the rig transmitting?
>>> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>>>
>>> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Richard G4DYA
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Luis V Romero (mobile)

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Luis V Romero (mobile)

I will then restate my opinion:

I and just about EVERYONE I have personally dealt with in my professional
experience with broadcast booths for recording voice over, technical
intercom, IFB feeds, musical talent and singers prefer to have SYNCHRONOUS
VOICE sidetone in their ears. Remember last New Year's Show on ABC-TV? The
non singing Mariah Carey? She had clean mix minus in the floor monitors,
but no earpiece sidetone feed :)

But there are exceptions. You may be one of them.

Ever watch a TV liveshot where the person on camera yanks out their
earphone? They are probably being fed DELAYED audio over the IFB. That's a
really bad thing! Some delay is acceptable, and some on camera talent are
very good with filtering out the delay. Most cannot. This has become a
nightmare now in Digital transmission with the added latency introduced by
modulation codecs. Gone forever are the days of feeding main channel with
IFB over ProChannel or 450MHz BAS transmitters (although there are still
some stations out there that do this... Its "traditional").

And I will agree with you on HT carrying hams. Especially Digital
Modulation ones. There is copious processing delay with Digital Modulation.
That would drive most people mad!

I can sense the K3 delay when listening to my processing in my rig's
monitor. I find it within my window of manageability and I like to hear
sidetone in my headset as I have been accustomed to by 41 years of using
headsets over RTS/Clearcom/Riedell intercom in broadcast control rooms,
never on speaker. I could live without it... But I prefer to have it.

However, I can also see 2 frames of video to audio delay... It's a curse,
not a blessing in the digital world we live in today.

You mileage obviously varies from mine, Ron! Viva le difference!

73

Lu - W4LT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2017 6:52 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
>
> With respect, it's all what you have grown accustomed to. The AM and FM
> stations where I worked only had a speaker in the booth over which the DJ
> heard audio from the disk on the turntable or rare network feed. He/she
> never heard their own voice.
>
> Same was true in aircraft and military radio comms. And I doubt if many

Hams
> today carrying an HT are disturbed by not hearing their own voices.
>
> Sidetone in telephones was used to keep the person speaking from shouting
> (as they did in early phones). The higher the sidetone volume, the quieter
> the person would speak. We used that to great effect to tame a "shouter"
in
> bull-pen office environments. Unfortunately mobile (cellular) phones offer
> no such benefit.
>
> My point is that I suspect that you are tapping into a change in
recording,

> broadcast and DJ work that is beginning to impact Ham operations.
>
> 73, Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Luis
> V. Romero
> Sent: Saturday, April 8, 2017 10:04 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request
>
> All:
>
> As a broadcast professional, I completely agree with the need to hear

one's
> voice as side tone in your headset while speaking. Not hearing this does
> make one feel deaf. This is a common feature in professional intercom
> systems as well as music performance monitoring for singers and
> instrumentalists and even your telephone! It's not really a "nice to
have":
> In my opinion, it's a "must have".

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S SSB TX monitor - feature request

In reply to this post by Dave Fugleberg

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not
> objectionable (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The
> only way I could induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in
> front of the external speaker with MON set at or near maximum.

There we agree ... where the monitor level is set to be usable in the
headphones, it does not cause a feedback issue even if the speakers
are turned on. However, if one is using low sensitivity headphones
with the speakers turned up high *and* high mic gain, one can cause
feedback or echo. Rather than insisting on a change in the way the
K3/K3S operates, one would be better served to repair the issues in
his own configuration!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 4/8/2017 5:07 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:

> OK, I just ran my test again, but this time turned the monitor up all the
> way, and i did indeed hear monitor audio in the speakers. I stand
> corrected, and sorry for muddying the waters.
>
> No, I wasn't confusing Phones and Line Out.
>
> At any rate, at a 'normal' (for me) monitor level, it's not objectionable
> (or even really noticable) in my external speaker. The only way I could
> induce audio feedback was to hold the mic right in front of the external
> speaker with MON set at or near maximum.
>
> I can't honestly think of any reason one would want TX monitor audio in a
> loudspeaker, but I guess that's the way it works, so somebody must think
> it's a good idea. I can't say I've ever noticed it until doing this test.
> Whether it results in audio feedback depends on your monitor level, your
> mic, your speakers, and the placement of mic and speakers relative to each
> other.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>>
>>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes
>>> through the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX
>>> audio comes through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does
>>> not.
>>>
>>
>> That is *NOT* my experience. With 5.57, the front and rear panel
>> headphone jacks behave identically here. You may be confusing the
>> Phones and Line Out jacks.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/8/2017 2:19 PM, Dave Fugleberg wrote:
>>
>>> I think some of the misunderstandings on this thread are because the front
>>> and rear panel Phones jacks behave differently. Here's the deal:
>>> 1) the original poster is using the front panel PHONES jack, and has
>>> SPKR+Phones set to NO. This makes the radio behave like most rigs we're
>>> used to - i.e., plugging in the phones mutes the speaker. In this case, if
>>> Monitor is on, it comes through phones OR speaker, whichever you're using
>>> at the time. There is no provision to enable/disable Monitor based on
>>> whether the front panel phones are plugged in, which is what he wants.
>>>
>>> 2) If you use the REAR panel phones jack, the monitor audio comes through
>>> the phones as expected. If SPKR+PHONES is set to yes, the RX audio comes
>>> through the speakers, but the transmit Monitor audio does not.
>>>
>>>
>>> At least, that's the behavior with my K3, MCU version 5.57. I just tested
>>> the two scenarios above. For the record, my normal configuration is to
>>> use
>>> the rear panel phones and mic jacks, with SPKR+PHONES on. I do have PF1
>>> set to toggle that off, but rarely do, since I'm usually alone in the
>>> shack. I have yet to hear any kind of audio feedback when transmitting.
>>> I
>>> have no idea if the behavior is any different using the front MIC jack, as
>>> I never do.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to hear if anyone has a different experience.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, while testing option 1 above, I unplugged the phones from
>>> the
>>> front and cranked the MONITOR until it was unpleasantly loud from the
>>> speakers, but got no feedback howl, but that may just be a function of
>>> placement.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Richard Lamont <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 08/04/17 18:11, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/8/2017 2:24 AM, Richard Lamont wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The firmware, however, does not appear to support what seems a simple
>>>>>>> and common-sense requirement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It is *not* the firmware - it is the *hardware* that does not support
>>>>> what you call a "simple and common-sense requirement" and what others
>>>>> call stupidity. Perhaps you should study the schematic - at least of
>>>>> the K3 which is published. Notice on the sheets K3 DSP: CODECS and K3
>>>>> DSP:DAC AUDIO the headphone/speaker amplifiers are fed *IN PARALLEL*.
>>>>> LHPOUT/RHPOUT of U7 (the DC) goes through the audio lowpass filter to
>>>>> U1 (speaker amplifier) and U2 (headphone amplifier) *IN PARALLEL*.
>>>>> *THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY* to send monitor audio *to only* the
>>>>> *headphone amplifier* (or for that matter *only* to the speaker).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I studied the K3 schematics a few days ago. I've just studied them
>>>> again. Thanks for the reminder.
>>>>
>>>> On receive, the rig is capable of muting the speakers when the
>>>> headphones are plugged in. This is quite normal. This happens despite
>>>> the two audio amplifiers having parallel inputs.
>>>>
>>>> There are switch contacts on the front panel headphone jack that enable
>>>> the rig to 'know', firmware permitting, whether there's a jack plug in
>>>> the socket. There is also a line labelled MUTE1 connected to the pin 2
>>>> of the speaker amplifier U1.
>>>>
>>>> So the hardware exists to enable the firmware (a) to know whether
>>>> headphones are plugged in, and (b) to mute the speaker amplifier. This
>>>> hardware is, AFAICS, used on receive. All I'm asking for as an option to
>>>> do the same thing on transmit, if a particular set of circumstances is
>>>> true:
>>>>
>>>> Is the rig on a voice mode?
>>>> Is the audio input set to mic (not line in)?
>>>> Is the rig transmitting?
>>>> Is there nothing plugged into the front panel headphone socket?
>>>>
>>>> If these four conditions are all true, then mute the speaker amplifier.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Richard G4DYA
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>