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K3S TX Noise Gate

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Richard-6

K3S TX Noise Gate

When I listen to myself in the monitor while setting Tx EQ and compression, I hear the fans in the background, so I thought I’d try the Transmit Noise Gate.

I was a recording engineer, so I know what a gate is and what it should sound like.

When I follow the manual instructions on how to access it through CONFIG TX GATE, how to tap 1 to turn it on and off, and how to use VFO A to adjust it, nothing happens. Zero. There is absolutely no gate action, no change in the sound as I run the adjustment from one end to the other.

What might I be doing wrong?

Richard - W4KBX
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Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

I have used the noise gate as well with success. I do sense a little clipping when my background noise, furnace and dehumidier fans running on high. Do you have the equalizer set higher levels or lower on the upper audio range?

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 7:54 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate

When I listen to myself in the monitor while setting Tx EQ and compression, I hear the fans in the background, so I thought I’d try the Transmit Noise Gate.

I was a recording engineer, so I know what a gate is and what it should sound like.

When I follow the manual instructions on how to access it through CONFIG TX GATE, how to tap 1 to turn it on and off, and how to use VFO A to adjust it, nothing happens. Zero. There is absolutely no gate action, no change in the sound as I run the adjustment from one end to the other.

What might I be doing wrong?

Richard - W4KBX
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Richard-6

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

Bill,

Tx EQ:
50 = -16
100 = -12
200 = -6
400 = 0
800 = 0
1200 = +3
2400 = +9
3200 = +12

This works well for me.

Richard - W4KBX

> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Do you have the equalizer set higher levels or lower on the upper audio range?
>
> 73,
> Bill
> K9YEQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 7:54 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate
>
> When I listen to myself in the monitor while setting Tx EQ and compression, I hear the fans in the background, so I thought I’d try the Transmit Noise Gate.
>
> I was a recording engineer, so I know what a gate is and what it should sound like.
>
> When I follow the manual instructions on how to access it through CONFIG TX GATE, how to tap 1 to turn it on and off, and how to use VFO A to adjust it, nothing happens. Zero. There is absolutely no gate action, no change in the sound as I run the adjustment from one end to the other.
>
> What might I be doing wrong?
>
> Richard - W4KBX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

Richard,

Remove the boost on the high end.
You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
It is better not to boost, but cut instead.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2018 1:09 PM, Richard wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Tx EQ:
> 50 = -16
> 100 = -12
> 200 = -6
> 400 = 0
> 800 = 0
> 1200 = +3
> 2400 = +9
> 3200 = +12
>
> This works well for me.
>
> Richard - W4KBX
>
>
>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Do you have the equalizer set higher levels or lower on the upper audio range?
>>

Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

Richard, I agree with Don, perhaps the extreme high setting, which is well beyond your highest voice frequency may have something to do with the lack of effectiveness. I would add that the gain at 2400 is extraordinary as well. 10 db of audio increase, if I recall correctly from my technical training (Signal Corp '69-72), is like doubling the perceived volume. That is a lot. Of course, this doesn't take your mic into consideration.
73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 12:25 PM
To: Richard <[hidden email]>; Bill Johnson <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate

Richard,

Remove the boost on the high end.
You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
It is better not to boost, but cut instead.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2018 1:09 PM, Richard wrote:

Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I have corrected what I meant to convey.

Richard, I agree with Don. What I was getting at was that perhaps the extreme high setting, which is well beyond your highest voice frequency, may have something to do with the lack of effectiveness for the transmit gate I would add that the gain at 2400 is extraordinary as well. 10 dB of audio increase, if I recall correctly from my technical training (Signal Corp '69-72), is like doubling the perceived volume. That is a lot. Of course, this doesn't take your mic into consideration. The noise gate goes to 10 dB I believe.
73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 12:25 PM
To: Richard <[hidden email]>; Bill Johnson <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate

Richard,

Remove the boost on the high end.
You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
It is better not to boost, but cut instead.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2018 1:09 PM, Richard wrote:

Richard-6

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

May I draw your attention to the bottom of this page.

https://heilsound.com/heil-amateur-radio/support/dsp-settings/all-things-elecraft/

But then, what does Bob Heil know about audio?

Richard - W4KBX

> On Mar 18, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard,
>
> Remove the boost on the high end.
> You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
> It is better not to boost, but cut instead.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/18/2018 1:09 PM, Richard wrote:
>> Bill,
>> Tx EQ:
>> 50 = -16
>> 100 = -12
>> 200 = -6
>> 400 = 0
>> 800 = 0
>> 1200 = +3
>> 2400 = +9
>> 3200 = +12
>> This works well for me.
>> Richard - W4KBX
>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Do you have the equalizer set higher levels or lower on the upper audio range?
>>>

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

It doesn’t have much to do with “audio knowledge”, it has to do with how these specific radios behave when you push EQ to high positive values. No one is questioning Heil’s audio chops, but that doesn’t translate into him being a knowledgable expert on the Kx radios.

This has been discussed here ad nausaum. You’re better off, if you can, to scale values DOWN to get an EQ curve rather than push them up.

> On Mar 18, 2018, at 9:07 PM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> May I draw your attention to the bottom of this page.
>
> https://heilsound.com/heil-amateur-radio/support/dsp-settings/all-things-elecraft/
>
> But then, what does Bob Heil know about audio?
>
> Richard - W4KBX
>
>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> Remove the boost on the high end.
>> You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
>> It is better not to boost, but cut instead.
>>

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Richard-6

Richard, I thought the issue was TX Gate. I use a Heil mic and respect the Heil reference, personally, using the digital recorder to listen to playback, I don't find his settings good for all. YMMV.

Good luck.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2018 8:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate

May I draw your attention to the bottom of this page.

https://heilsound.com/heil-amateur-radio/support/dsp-settings/all-things-elecraft/

But then, what does Bob Heil know about audio?

Richard - W4KBX

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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Richard-6

The original question was about TX Noise Gate. How did we get onto TXEQ?

To some extent, TX EQ settings depend on the mic and voice. For
competitive, good sounding audio to cut through QRM and noise, a good
starting point for most ham mics and average voices is max cut of the
three lowest EQ bands, 6 dB cut of the fourth, 6 dB boost of the top two
bands, 0 dB (no boost, no cut) for the remaining bands. Once these
setting are made, set Comp to see 10 dB of compression on peaks, and get
reports from a good listener.

73, Jim K9YC
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Don Wilhelm

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

The boost at high frequencies will allow the mic audio to pick up
extraneous room noise, and may override (interfere) with the operation
of the noise gate.

Jim is correct on all other counts.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/18/2018 9:41 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> The original question was about TX Noise Gate. How did we get onto TXEQ?
>
> To some extent, TX EQ settings depend on the mic and voice. For
> competitive, good sounding audio to cut through QRM and noise, a good
> starting point for most ham mics and average voices is max cut of the
> three lowest EQ bands, 6 dB cut of the fourth, 6 dB boost of the top two
> bands, 0 dB (no boost, no cut) for the remaining bands. Once these
> setting are made, set Comp to see 10 dB of compression on peaks, and get
> reports from a good listener.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Richard-6

> But then, what does Bob Heil know about audio?

Based on the charts on his web page, Bob Heil knows *nothing* about the
structure of human voice (speech). There is little or no usable energy
in speech below 200 Hz - even the lowest bass voices have little
*speech* energy that low. In addition, there is little to no energy
between 800 Hz and 1100 Hz (it is believed by scientists that voice
developed that way so humans could hear danger in the presence of
voices). Only a soprano (female) or countertenor (male) will actually
have vocal energy when singing in the 800 - 1100 Hz range but neither
will have speech energy in that range.

In any case, doing anything other than -16dB in the bottom three "bands"
and no boost at 800 Hz shows a complete lack of understanding of speech
and marks Bob Heil as strictly a *MUSICIAN* - one primarily experienced
in microphones for *INSTRUMENTS* or *VOCALISTS* not communications.

Heil's "Typical EQ adjustments for most mics or headsets" should have
800 Hz = 0 (or even -6), 1600 Hz = +3dB, 2400 Hz = +5 dB and 3200 Hz =
+6 dB (that provides a smooth 3 dB per octave increase above the nominal
level at 400/800 Hz). In most cases, 3200 Hz can even be set at 0 since
audio above 2700/3000 Hz will be cut off by the DSP modulation function
anyway!

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/18/2018 9:07 PM, Richard wrote:

> May I draw your attention to the bottom of this page.
>
> https://heilsound.com/heil-amateur-radio/support/dsp-settings/all-things-elecraft/
>
> But then, what does Bob Heil know about audio?
>
> Richard - W4KBX
>
>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 1:25 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> Remove the boost on the high end.
>> You can reduce all bands if you want to maintain the same curve.
>> It is better not to boost, but cut instead.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 3/18/2018 1:09 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> Bill,
>>> Tx EQ:
>>> 50 = -16
>>> 100 = -12
>>> 200 = -6
>>> 400 = 0
>>> 800 = 0
>>> 1200 = +3
>>> 2400 = +9
>>> 3200 = +12
>>> This works well for me.
>>> Richard - W4KBX
>>>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Bill Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Do you have the equalizer set higher levels or lower on the upper audio range?
>>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Bill K9YEQ

Which monitor setting are you using? If you have selected "Fast"
monitor, you may not hear the TX Gate (or EQ, compression, etc.).
The fast monitor is "pre-DSP" audio that avoids the latency (delay)
in the DSP processing.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Richard
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2018 7:54 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] K3S TX Noise Gate
>
> When I listen to myself in the monitor while setting Tx EQ and
> compression, I hear the fans in the background, so I thought I’d try
> the Transmit Noise Gate.
>
> I was a recording engineer, so I know what a gate is and what it
> should sound like.

>
> When I follow the manual instructions on how to
> access it through CONFIG TX GATE, how to tap 1 to turn it on and off,
> and how to use VFO A to adjust it, nothing happens. Zero. There is
> absolutely no gate action, no change in the sound as I run the
> adjustment from one end to the other.
> > What might I be doing wrong?
>
> Richard - W4KBX
> ______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: K3S TX Noise Gate

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

On 3/18/2018 7:43 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> ased on the charts on his web page, Bob Heil knows *nothing* about the
> structure of human voice (speech). There is little or no usable energy
> in speech below 200 Hz - even the lowest bass voices have little
> *speech* energy that low.

I strongly agree with both statements.

> In addition, there is little to no energy
> between 800 Hz and 1100 Hz (it is believed by scientists that voice
> developed that way so humans could hear danger in the presence of
> voices). Only a soprano (female) or countertenor (male) will actually
> have vocal energy when singing in the 800 - 1100 Hz range but neither
> will have speech energy in that range.

I don't know where you get your information about this, but it is WRONG.
The last 30 years of my professional life centered on designing sound
systems for speech intelligibility in challenging acoustic environments,
and I've studied it with some of the best on the planet. Yes, the
distribution of energy in speech varies across the speech range, but the
speech range should have the flattest practical frequency response. The
GOOD reason for a modest boost around 3 kHz is to partially compensate
the rolloff of the SSB transmit filters. This has been good practice for
at least 60 years, and boost EQ is built into some of the early popular
ham mics, of which the Shure 444 is an example.

The most critical octave bands for speech intelligibility are 1,000 Hz
and 2,000 Hz. 500 Hz is next, followed by 4,000 Hz. I know of no serious
practitioners who would recommend a mid-range dip except, perhaps, those
in the broadcast "loudness wars."

73, Jim K9YC

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