K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

[Jim Brown-10]

On Tue,3/22/2016 1:34 PM, Gary Smith wrote:
> What I use are a pair of speakers with a truly flat response all the
> way from 80 Hz to 22 KHz but extreme overkill...: Mackie HR824
> powered Studio monitors.

Yes, excellent AF response, very nice for recording, but massive
overkill. I have a pair as well. BUT -- they are also RFI dogs. Keying a
5W 2M talkie across the room will cause their woofers to move enough
that you'll clearly see it, and they're also susceptible at some HF
frequencies.

73, Jim K9YC
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[EUGENE GABRY]

This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a bit more
and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to be
very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice compliment
to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the sound of
a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to 300hz
with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also set RX
EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the high
frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same for
SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending on
conditions.

I've never ever put any stock into any manufacturers built in speakers. They
are there cause they have to be :) For the K3S I use a combination of a pair
of Polk Audio 5 1/4" book shelf speakers (60hz-24kz) and Pyle Pro 3" mini
cube speakers (90hz -18khz), per channel, and the sound is crisp and clear
audio. And, both speaker sets are black to match the K3S and all together
for all 4 speakers cost was $75.00 and change.

The AGC settings were a big game changer to these old ears.

73 Gene, N9TF

K3S 10057




 

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim
Brown
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 4:11 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S audio board for K3 upgrade?

On Tue,3/22/2016 1:34 PM, Gary Smith wrote:
> What I use are a pair of speakers with a truly flat response all the
> way from 80 Hz to 22 KHz but extreme overkill...: Mackie HR824 powered
> Studio monitors.

Yes, excellent AF response, very nice for recording, but massive overkill. I
have a pair as well. BUT -- they are also RFI dogs. Keying a 5W 2M talkie
across the room will cause their woofers to move enough that you'll clearly
see it, and they're also susceptible at some HF frequencies.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Gene (and all),

Yes, the AGC settings do help a lot.  The K3/K3S has enough gain that
often the AGC is activated on the atmospheric noise in the band.
However, I think your chosen AGC settings are a bit extreme for general
use, but if your ears tell you it is good for you, then keep those
settings and the rest of this post is for any others interested.

I would encourage first turning the preamp off to minimize the band
noise - of course the need for a preamp or not will be band dependent.  
I see little use for the preamp on 160, 80, 60, 40 and 30 meters, and
with the K3, the preamp on 20 meters is "iffy".  You may want to use the
attenuator on 160 and 80 meters, and maybe even 60 meters.  Use your
ears, and the band noise will vary from location to location.  Since
those settings are per band, once you determine the proper preamp and
attenuator settings for each band, they will be set the same way when
returning to that band.

So the preamp and attenuator settings are the first order of business.
After that, attack the AGC Threshold and Slope using the information at
my website www.w3fpr.com "noisy K3" article as a guide.

Finally, use the RX EQ settings to roll off the higher frequencies -
again, trust your ears - what is helpful for one may not work for anyone
else.  The K3/K3S has a lot of things that can be customized to the
individual user.  It is usable 'right out of the box', but can (and
should be) customized for your individual preferences.

I agree completely with several other comments that the best speakers
and headphones are those which give a flat response.  Flat response
"Hi-Fi" speakers and headphones work quite well.  Use the controls in
the K3/K3S (mainly RX EQ) to tailor the sound.  If you use speakers that
have peaks and adjust the RX EQ to those peaky speakers, when you use
headphones, the RX EQ will be wrong for them.  By using flat response
speakers and headphones, you should enjoy the same response from the
speakers and the headphones.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gene Gabry wrote:

> This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a bit more
> and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to be
> very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice compliment
> to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the sound of
> a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to 300hz
> with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also set RX
> EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the high
> frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same for
> SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending on
> conditions.
>

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[k6dgw]

Great advice.  Mine, from one who has done this unsuccessfully, and then
with advice, done it successfully, GO SLOW.  This means small changes to
one parameter and some listening time before another change.  The
changes to the various AGC parameters will have subtle effects, not all
of which will be apparent on the first signal you listen to.  The K3 is
incredibly configurable with multiple parameters, and the number of
combinations is huge.  You need to creep up on it.

The right combo for you may differ between SSB and CW.  Try 75 [above
3800] at night ... it's crowded and probably somewhat noisy [you can
ignore most of the content, just go for the sound of the signal :-))].
On CW, I found DX pileups and pretended I was the DX tuning around the pile.

I had pretty much given up on the AGC as too complex and was going with
the stock, out-of-the-box settings until I got this advice.  You can
start with the stock settings or someone who believes they've achieved
nirvana, but yours will depend on you.  Nobody hears the same you do and
only you will know.  Just go slow and you'll find your sweet spot, I did.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 3/22/2016 4:00 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> So the preamp and attenuator settings are the first order of business.
> After that, attack the AGC Threshold and Slope using the information at
> my website www.w3fpr.com "noisy K3" article as a guide.

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[gm3sek]

Don wrote:

>Gene (and all),
>
>Yes, the AGC settings do help a lot.  The K3/K3S has enough gain that
>often the AGC is activated on the atmospheric noise in the band.

It isn't so much that the K3/K3S has "gain", but that the factory
default AGC THReshold is so very, very low. Measurements by KE7X [1]
have shown that the default setting of THR=5 corresponds to an AGC onset
at less than S3, whereas competing rigs have a threshold of S7 or even
higher. This very low AGC threshold is what allows the AGC to be
activated by band noise.

Elecraft's factory defaults of THR=5 and SLP=12 compress all signals
above the AGC threshold into a very narrow range of audio output levels
[see the measurements by KE7X]. This makes for comfortable
broadcast-style listening - but there is price to be paid. The default
settings greatly reduce the differences in the *true* strengths of
incoming signals - important differences that DXers and contesters
*need* to hear, in order to pick individual signals out of a pileup.

Following complaints from DXers, DXpeditioners and contesters about this
so-called "pileup mush", and following further series of measurements by
KE7X, Elecraft eventually did increase the available range of AGC
THReshold settings (the v4.51 firmware upgrade).

Following the release of FW v4.51, consensus within the [K3-contesting]
Yahoo group about the most important settings for DXing and contesting
has been as follows.

* AGC THR: increase to at least 8 (from default = 5) and preferably to
12 or even 14 if your ears can handle the increased range of audio
levels [2].

* AGC SLP: decrease to 8 or even less (from default = 12). Lower SLP
settings allow stronger signals to sound somewhat louder, and thus more
realistic, but the range of variation will be partly determined by the
THR setting already made; so always experiment with THR first, and with
SLP afterwards.

* AGC DCY = SOFT (not default=NOR). The User Manual claims that "The
SOFT setting can reduce IMD caused by traditional AGC, and is especially
useful in 'pileup' conditions, in some cases making it unnecessary to
turn AGC off."
 
The settings recommended above have essentially solved the problem of
"pileup mush" for those who have tried them... but regrettably, Elecraft
has done almost nothing to make DXers and contesters  aware that such
changes are possible.
 
More than 3 years after the firmware release notes boasted that v4.51
"greatly improves signal clarity in pile-ups and other high-noise or
dense-signal situations, especially with threshold set to 12 or higher",
that information is *still* missing from the User Manual. There is also
no information on how to create different 'profiles' of AGC settings for
different types of users.

Meanwhile, Elecraft's factory AGC defaults remain exactly as they were,
still optimized apparently for comfortable 'listening', while many DXers
and contesters remain unaware that their K3/K3S could actually be *so*
much better.



[1] http://www.ke7x.com/home/miscellaneous-k3-information

[2] It is important to give any increased AGC THReshold setting an
extended trial. To anyone accustomed to an artificially restricted range
of audio signal levels, a higher setting will initially sound quite
'aggressive' -even though the new setting is much closer to real life.


73 from Ian GM3SEK


>-----Original Message-----
>
>On 3/22/2016 6:32 PM, Gene Gabry wrote:
>> This has been an interesting thread to which I have experimented a
bit
>more
>> and found the AGC setting recommendations from a couple of posters to
>be
>> very valuable, and Eric's suggestions on BW settings to be a nice
>compliment
>> to play with. Although, my ears still like a little HF, I like the
sound of
>> a BW from 100hz to 2.7khz for SSB and usually the 500hz filter set to
>300hz
>> with DSP. I now have AGC THR set to max and AGC SLP set to 0. I also
set
>RX
>> EQ to flat and use hi/lo cut when needed. Really cuts down on the
high
>> frequency hash I get from this qth. I leave the AGC settings the same
for

>> SSB and CW and play with BW and cut between the two modes, depending
>on
>> conditions.
>>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
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>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

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