K4 Panadaptor Display

[Elecraft mailing list]

I wonder if it is possible to show the panadaptor(s) display as a separate floating window on the external monitor?
So that for example you could have your logging program windows open as well as a separately floating K4 panadaptor display showing on the same monitor.
73 Ray G3XLG

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[Grant Youngman-2]

This question was addressed during the recent Zoom presentation/Q&A.  The answer is no — except.  

Some displays supports multiple video inputs that can be assigned to quadrants on the display.  So you could assign the K4 video stream to a quadrant (essentially a logical dedicated display), for example,  if your display supports that function.

Grant NQ5T

> On Jan 26, 2021, at 7:57 AM, Ray Spreadbury via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> I wonder if it is possible to show the panadaptor(s) display as a separate floating window on the external monitor?
> So that for example you could have your logging program windows open as well as a separately floating K4 panadaptor display showing on the same monitor.
> 73 Ray G3XLG
>

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[NJ8M]

I appreciate what Elecraft is trying to do. Making one single radio to meet
every person's wants, not needs, is an impossible task. The K4 is a bells
and whistles radio. The everyday user or for that matter contester does not
need half of the interface ability that the K4 will offer. For me I need a
bomb proof front end for a high RF environment, namely SO2R on a city lot
using the same antenna for 2 radios at the same time with band pass filters
and multiplexers that offer 100db of rejection. To date no SDR only radio
offers what a superhet offers. Until the HD model is implemented, the
K4 is not the radio for me. If I were to be a one radio shack radio user
and not 2 for SO2R, it would be my first choice. For instance, the IC7300
and IC7610, both are fantastic radios. Put another RF source remotely near
them and the ADC is overloaded and the AGC pumps/attacks and you hear
nothing. Both are a massive failure when using SO2R or at Field Day. The
second thing that I need, being in a large city is the ability of the
receiver to deal with intermittent noise problems.  Line noise and the
increased noise floor that highly populated areas hit the front end of a
receiver has to be ameliorated by the receiver. Algorithms for noise
blanking, and digital noise reduction and a tunable passband capability
without ringing and loss of weak signal detection is what is needed. That
is a tall order. Narrowing down the frequency by a superhet front end and
adding band pass filters to help with this will cut the work of the ADC
down due to the decreased spectrum that needs to be converted. Then the
FPGA and DSP sections do not have to process so much data and this should
speed up the response time and will add increased selectivity, hopefully.
But until the HD is implemented this is not going to happen.

What I don't need in a radio:

I don't need 5 receive antenna ports. If I ever have more than one RX
antenna, then it will be on a rotary switch or a button console that I can
quickly rotate through to select the antenna for best reception. Faster and
more contest efficient and way less cumbersome than that which is built
into a radio with multiple button screen pushes. Only 1 Rx port is needed.

I don't need remote ability. For the most part only a fraction of a percent
of all ops use remote applications. The guys at RemoteHam are making a
fortune using this technology. I am not a person that has $3000 to pay for
a weekend of remote contest station operation.

I don't need eye candy offered by high resolution output to a large screen.
When I am running it offers nothing. It is the ability to separate the
signals between the ears and a large screen does diddly for me. For S&P for
the less skilled, yes it may be to some advantage, at least it gives
something nice to look at the noise floor with. The ability of a narrow
bandwidth capable screen for the Pan adaptor, eg, 1 or 2 khz is of far
greater use to me. On a 7 inch screen I can see the weak ones easily. The
micro pan is a nice idea but I would much prefer having half of the full
sized pan to be 1 or 2khz wide and the other half 20 to 50 khz selectable.
I would gang the receivers on the same frequency and use diversity RX and
have a continuous large but easily selectable narrow screen without the
addition of a separate monitor that is never placed ergonomically to the
operating position. That way my eyes, neck and shoulders are looking at the
radio face and I am getting the info that I need without glancing at
another screen that is not eyes straight forward and level to the operating
position.

I don't need a CW decoder. The best one is between your own ears. If I were
serious about digital modes I would not be using an in radio decoder. I
would go with a 24 bit audio device and an outboard computer with multiple
ways to simultaneously decode RTTY. FT8 and for the most part, all other
digital modes are boring to me. I don't use them. PSK 31 for rag chewing is
ok, but rarely do you find that any more, and after about a month, on PSK,
you have already worked every one using that mode. You don't need a great
radio for FT8. As long as the radio can be CAT controled you are good to go.

Each operator has their own needs when it comes to operating. Mine are
contest oriented. Strong bomb proof rx for high RF environment, brick wall
passbands, excellent sensitivity, an agc that does not pump when a 20 over
9 signal is with in 500 hz of your passband, no ringing when filters are
engaged, power line noise reduction at the push of a button, digital noise
reduction for ambient noise,a notch filter that kills hetrodines or is
tunable to get rid of a second cw signal in your passband and a price tag
that I can live with because I need to buy 2 matching radios for SO2R. I
was ready to buy a second K3S when it was discontinued in favor of the
upcoming, and not yet released or developed K4. The K3S with second rx for
diversity has been a wonderful radio for me and thousands of others. It has
proven itself in high RF environments in many M/M M/2, SO2R and
Dxpeditions. The only complaints I had were its noise reduction was lacking
in ability and after about 10 hours the roar/harshness of sound got to me
sometimes.

There are a lot of great radios out there. Putting your finger anywhere in
the top 10 will get you a great radio. It is a matter of operator choice
and how much you are willing to spend. Having had $9879 on deposit to
Elecraft for over a year and not so much as an email form letter thanking
me for my interest free collateral that I extended to them for the usery,
well, it did not leave a very good taste in my mouth. I own the KPA1500. It
is a nice amp. The tuner is great. Easy to operate and interface. I plan to
purchase a KPA500 to match my KAT500 to put in my travel trailer, but as
for the K4, I have moved on. I wish you well Elecraft.

Morgan Bailey NJ8M

BS + MS + $2.98 = COFFEE
Real Life Experience = Priceless, says the man who set his back yard on
fire with a breadboard tuner loading a 160 meter inverted L with 1000
watts. LOL

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 8:32 AM Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This question was addressed during the recent Zoom presentation/Q&A.  The
> answer is no — except.
>
> Some displays supports multiple video inputs that can be assigned to
> quadrants on the display.  So you could assign the K4 video stream to a
> quadrant (essentially a logical dedicated display), for example,  if your
> display supports that function.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
> > On Jan 26, 2021, at 7:57 AM, Ray Spreadbury via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I wonder if it is possible to show the panadaptor(s) display as a
> separate floating window on the external monitor?
> > So that for example you could have your logging program windows open as
> well as a separately floating K4 panadaptor display showing on the same
> monitor.
> > 73 Ray G3XLG
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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[K8TE]

Many of us who contest a lot will tell you the radio is NOT the focus, the
monitor with the logger and keyboard.  My primary K3 sits next to my primary
monitor with the P3 on the other side of the K3 and an external, separate
monitor above the P3 for a lager waterfall, useful when chasing DX operating
split.  Flexibility and ergonomics are important elements of good shack
design, especially if we expand the shack beyond one radio and a laptop.  

However, even for FD, I assert the laptop should be directly in front of the
operator who should do the operating and logging with the radio within easy
reach to the side of the laptop or monitor/keyboard.  Rarely is there a need
to touch the radio, even for changing frequencies/bands or modes.  A second
op can help and learn, but should not do the logging, regardless of mode.
There is a big difference between six folks operating a radio for several
hours and making several hundred contacts vs. one who makes 1600+ FD
contacts in 24!  The latter's fingers seldom leave the keyboard.

Placing more than one "window", regardless of source, in a single monitor
requires only a switcher with multiple inputs and the ability to send them
in combination to a monitor.  You may not have to buy a new monitor although
you'll need to review specifications carefully to determine if a new monitor
or a switch is for you.  

And, be ready to test the monitor, switch, and input devices!  My Geochron
will not work through a switch I bought although the TiVo will even though
both work well directly to the two HDMI inputs on the TV, just one
at-a-time.  The reason remains hidden thus far with bigger fish to fry in
the shack.

73, Bill, K8TE



--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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[Bob Wilson, N6TV]

Old Subject line was:  "K4 Panadapter Display"

This is in response to the post by NJ8M, excerpted below.

I've been testing a pair of K4D (not HD) radios for SO2R (Single Op Two
Radio) contesting at my QTH, which has one tower, closely-spaced monoband
antennas, and 1500W output.  I'm using Array Solutions 200W W3NQN Bandpass
filters and Top Ten Devices coax stubs.  There are two or more contest
stations on the mountains above me (K6TD's remote, and W6NL) that are
line-of-sight, and they can produce very loud signals, S9 +50 dB or more
off the back of my beams.

The front end of the K4D performs just as well, as far as I can tell, as
the two K3 radios I used before, which had 8 pole crystal filters (the
Inrad 500 Hz 8-pole crystal was my favorite).  I've heard no "AGC pumping"
or "desense" on the K4D, from either of these loud stations a few kHz away,
though I can hear their transmitted phase noise, and see it on the K4
scope.  I can transmit on one band and listen on an adjacent band, and
though I hear my harmonics or IMD for neighborhood non-linear devices in
certain directions, the K4D receiver doesn't "block" when I transmit on the
other.

As I've mentioned before, the K4D audio is a vast improvement over the K3
and K3S, which really helps when you're lucky enough to attract a pileup.
The QSK is better too, which helps when you're calling in a pileup.

Furthermore, you DO NOT need to tap multiple times to switch to the RX
antenna, as seen in the recent live demo by WA6HHQ.  What Eric did not get
to demonstrate is that there is an ANT CFG menu option that allows you to
select which antennas you want the RX ANT button to cycle through.  When
that option is selected, a single tap of the RX ANT button toggles the
receiver between the TX ANT and RX1 antennas, say, instead of popping up a
menu, so the K4D can work the same as the K3.  You can also toggle an RX
ANT in and out from the keyboard of your logging software, simply by
sending a host command with a function key. Or you can cycle through
multiple RX antennas with each tap.  The same applies to the TX antennas.

The 8 K-POD buttons can also be used to send host commands (or "macros") to
do anything you can do with a button, or several buttons.

The only time the K4HD model might be best would be when there are two rigs *on
the same band*, such as at Field Day, or at a large DXpedition, or at a
large Multi-Multi station with a RUN and MULT stations on the same band.

And, as I understand it, the plan is that a K4D can be field upgradable to
an K4HD model at a later date.  What remains to be seen, though, is if the
"ripple" in the roofing filters of the HD module introduces any pileup
mush, which was one explanation for why the K3 and K3S still had some
pileup mush, even after the K3 AGC settings and RF Gain were properly
adjusted as recommended here
<http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Receiver-mush-tp7627277p7627323.html>.
Time will tell.  As of now, I haven't heard any pileup mush (RX IMD or
Audio IMD) in the K4D.

As for noise blanking and noise reduction, it's not something I can offer
an opinion about, because I prefer to leave both OFF, as I did on my K3.

73,
Bob, N6TV
K4 Field Tester

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 9:15 AM Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]> wrote:
<snip>

> For me I need a bomb proof front end for a high RF environment, namely
> SO2R on a city lot using the same antenna for 2 radios at the same time
> with band pass filters and multiplexers that offer 100db of rejection. To
> date no SDR only radio offers what a superhet offers. Until the HD model is
> implemented, the K4 is not the radio for me.  If I were to be a one radio
> shack radio user and not 2 for SO2R, it would be my first choice. For
> instance, the IC7300 and IC7610, both are fantastic radios. Put another RF
> source remotely near them and the ADC is overloaded and the AGC
> pumps/attacks and you hear nothing. Both are a massive failure when using
> SO2R or at Field Day. The second thing that I need, being in a large city
> is the ability of the receiver to deal with intermittent noise problems.
> Line noise and the increased noise floor that highly populated areas hit
> the front end of a receiver has to be ameliorated by the receiver.
> Algorithms for noise blanking, and digital noise reduction and a tunable
> passband capability without ringing and loss of weak signal detection is
> what is needed. That is a tall order. Narrowing down the frequency by a
> superhet front end and adding band pass filters to help with this will cut
> the work of the ADC down due to the decreased spectrum that needs to be
> converted. Then the FPGA and DSP sections do not have to process so much
> data and this should speed up the response time and will add increased
> selectivity, hopefully.  But until the HD is implemented this is not going
> to happen.
>

<snip>

> Morgan Bailey NJ8M
>
>
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[Jim Brown-10]

Bob is a top contester, often operates from top contesting stations, and
I strongly value his comments. I'm not far from Bob, or W6NL and K6TD's
remote (both mountaintop stations, line of sight). Last I heard, W6NL is
running Yaesu rigs, lots of phase noise and clicks; I don't know what
K6TD is running, but I suspect Flex. W0YK and K6XX are very close by,
both mountaintops. K6XX is VERY clean, only five miles N. We can work
500 Hz apart on CW, both running legal limit. YK and XX are also running
K4s; I'm runing K3s with updated synth boards.

73, Jim K9YC

On 1/27/2021 12:56 AM, Bob Wilson, N6TV wrote:

> Old Subject line was:  "K4 Panadapter Display"
>
> This is in response to the post by NJ8M, excerpted below.
>
> I've been testing a pair of K4D (not HD) radios for SO2R (Single Op Two
> Radio) contesting at my QTH, which has one tower, closely-spaced monoband
> antennas, and 1500W output.  I'm using Array Solutions 200W W3NQN Bandpass
> filters and Top Ten Devices coax stubs.  There are two or more contest
> stations on the mountains above me (K6TD's remote, and W6NL) that are
> line-of-sight, and they can produce very loud signals, S9 +50 dB or more
> off the back of my beams.
>
> The front end of the K4D performs just as well, as far as I can tell, as
> the two K3 radios I used before, which had 8 pole crystal filters (the
> Inrad 500 Hz 8-pole crystal was my favorite).  I've heard no "AGC pumping"
> or "desense" on the K4D, from either of these loud stations a few kHz away,
> though I can hear their transmitted phase noise, and see it on the K4
> scope.  I can transmit on one band and listen on an adjacent band, and
> though I hear my harmonics or IMD for neighborhood non-linear devices in
> certain directions, the K4D receiver doesn't "block" when I transmit on the
> other.
>
> As I've mentioned before, the K4D audio is a vast improvement over the K3
> and K3S, which really helps when you're lucky enough to attract a pileup.
> The QSK is better too, which helps when you're calling in a pileup.
>
> Furthermore, you DO NOT need to tap multiple times to switch to the RX
> antenna, as seen in the recent live demo by WA6HHQ.  What Eric did not get
> to demonstrate is that there is an ANT CFG menu option that allows you to
> select which antennas you want the RX ANT button to cycle through.  When
> that option is selected, a single tap of the RX ANT button toggles the
> receiver between the TX ANT and RX1 antennas, say, instead of popping up a
> menu, so the K4D can work the same as the K3.  You can also toggle an RX
> ANT in and out from the keyboard of your logging software, simply by
> sending a host command with a function key. Or you can cycle through
> multiple RX antennas with each tap.  The same applies to the TX antennas.
>
> The 8 K-POD buttons can also be used to send host commands (or "macros") to
> do anything you can do with a button, or several buttons.
>
> The only time the K4HD model might be best would be when there are two rigs *on
> the same band*, such as at Field Day, or at a large DXpedition, or at a
> large Multi-Multi station with a RUN and MULT stations on the same band.
>
> And, as I understand it, the plan is that a K4D can be field upgradable to
> an K4HD model at a later date.  What remains to be seen, though, is if the
> "ripple" in the roofing filters of the HD module introduces any pileup
> mush, which was one explanation for why the K3 and K3S still had some
> pileup mush, even after the K3 AGC settings and RF Gain were properly
> adjusted as recommended here
> <http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3-Receiver-mush-tp7627277p7627323.html>.
> Time will tell.  As of now, I haven't heard any pileup mush (RX IMD or
> Audio IMD) in the K4D.
>
> As for noise blanking and noise reduction, it's not something I can offer
> an opinion about, because I prefer to leave both OFF, as I did on my K3.
>
> 73,
> Bob, N6TV
> K4 Field Tester
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 9:15 AM Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> For me I need a bomb proof front end for a high RF environment, namely
>> SO2R on a city lot using the same antenna for 2 radios at the same time
>> with band pass filters and multiplexers that offer 100db of rejection. To
>> date no SDR only radio offers what a superhet offers. Until the HD model is
>> implemented, the K4 is not the radio for me.  If I were to be a one radio
>> shack radio user and not 2 for SO2R, it would be my first choice. For
>> instance, the IC7300 and IC7610, both are fantastic radios. Put another RF
>> source remotely near them and the ADC is overloaded and the AGC
>> pumps/attacks and you hear nothing. Both are a massive failure when using
>> SO2R or at Field Day. The second thing that I need, being in a large city
>> is the ability of the receiver to deal with intermittent noise problems.
>> Line noise and the increased noise floor that highly populated areas hit
>> the front end of a receiver has to be ameliorated by the receiver.
>> Algorithms for noise blanking, and digital noise reduction and a tunable
>> passband capability without ringing and loss of weak signal detection is
>> what is needed. That is a tall order. Narrowing down the frequency by a
>> superhet front end and adding band pass filters to help with this will cut
>> the work of the ADC down due to the decreased spectrum that needs to be
>> converted. Then the FPGA and DSP sections do not have to process so much
>> data and this should speed up the response time and will add increased
>> selectivity, hopefully.  But until the HD is implemented this is not going
>> to happen.
>>
> <snip>
>
>> Morgan Bailey NJ8M
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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