Elecraft

K4 S-meter characteristics

Classic

List

Threaded

11 messages Options

Elecraft mailing list

K4 S-meter characteristics

Will the K4 have alternate S-meter scales since its direct sampling.
Dbm, and Dbuv would be useful.
Will the K4 have better S-meter resolution or a menu option to set the dynamic range to give better indications of nulls or peaks? It would be nice to limit the range in 2 scales S1 to S9 and then the normal 60db above S-9.

Will there be a feature to allow the s-meter data to be accessed in linear manner to do antenna polar plots? It would be a shame to squander the potential of the K4 especially if the S-meter is linear and accurate.
I am sure the potential is endless being direct sampling architecture and its just a matter of priorities! I have used a Perseus for a number of years and as a accurate measuring instrument it is indeed superb. It would be nice if the K4 had this potential inherent in the design

73CraigVK3OD

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

wayne burdick

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

Administrator

> On Apr 23, 2020, at 1:26 PM, Charlie Delta via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Will the K4 have alternate S-meter scales since its direct sampling.
> Dbm, and Dbuv would be useful.

It's calibrated at S9 = -73 dBm, with markings in dB above S9 and in S-units below S9, as with our other transceivers.

> Will there be a feature to allow the s-meter data to be accessed in linear manner to do antenna polar plots? It would be a shame to squander the potential of the K4 especially if the S-meter is linear and accurate.
> I am sure the potential is endless being direct sampling architecture and its just a matter of priorities! I have used a Perseus for a number of years and as a accurate measuring instrument it is indeed superb. It would be nice if the K4 had this potential inherent in the design

Small matter of programming (and prioritizing the many requests like this we anticipate!).

73,
Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

alorona

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Now that the K4 has exact knowledge of its gains and losses through the preamps, attenuators, splitters, bandpass filters and so forth, could this enable an alternate way of visualizing the receiver's range? This alternate measurement would be quite useful in setting the controls optimally for any situation.

Imagine a scale -- I suppose it would be in dBm -- showing the K4's total dynamic range. Say it's 100 dB in total. The lowest point is the minimum discernable signal (MDS); the highest point is the damage level, or if that's a bit too frightening, call it the maximum ADC level or something else to denote it as a Level Not To Be Exceeded.

Since the K4 will know not only what the noise floor of the band you're listening to is, but the absolute value of that level in dBm, the scale can be annotated with a dynamic marker to show where the band noise falls in that 100 dB range. I'm calling it 'dynamic' because it'll vary a few dB as band noise does, but it will sit at a calibrated level, relatively motionless on the scale as Wayne described the S-meter doing.

As the operator kicks in more gain by turning on preamps or turning up the RF Gain, the scale shifts downward by the same amount. For instance, if the scale was showing -120 to -20 dBm -- a 100 dB range -- and then the operator turns on a 10 dB preamp, the scale must change to -130 to -30 dBm, because the preamp has made the receiver more sensitive while also reducing the max permissible level.

Conversely, if the operator turned on 10 dB of attenuation, then the scale would shift upward to -110 to -10 dBm, indicating clearly that sensitivity is being sacrificed for greater large signal handling capability. The noise floor, being a relative constant, would move closer to the bottom of the window, or rather, the window would move relative to the noise floor in such a way as to place it 10 dB closer to the bottom end.

So actually, as I'm thinking about this, the meter wouldn't move at all. It's the noise marker that would float higher and lower within the window as you varied the controls, just as on an S-meter. I guess what I'm describing here is more or less an S-meter calibrated in dBm!

But perhaps the best reason for looking at the receiver this way would be to tune the controls precisely for a given noise floor. Twenty meters, with its -120 dBm noise floor, will require one combination of preamps and/or attenuators. On 80 meters, if the noise is, say, -100 dBm, the operator knows (because he can see the graphic) exactly how much attenuation is acceptable while still keeping the band noise marker in the operating range. It would behoove the operator to keep the noise floor marker near the bottom to 1) give him the maximum dynamic range under those conditions, and 2) to avoid becoming "my K4 is noisy" guy.

Presumably, as each K4 goes through RF calibration at the factory it will know exactly the gain of each preamp, attenuator, filter, and splitter in its path. The scale could be custom for each individual unit, although I wouldn't want to start any "my K4 is more sensitive than yours" wars.

I leave it to the programmers to decide on the specific eye candy of such a readout. I for one would find this type of meter fun and useful in getting a mental picture of where in dynamic range space the receiver is sitting.

Can anybody see any flaws in this idea? I can foresee at least one. I don't know how the front end of the K4 will work, but if it is constantly moving the receiver range in response to what it hears, that is, in response to the total amount of power incident on its antenna port, then perhaps that might pose a real challenge to giving this type of feedback to the user. I don't know.

Al W6LX

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

NJ8M

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

Maybe it is just me but, Turn the radio on, adjust the audio/rf/agc
controls, hear the station, work him, move on. I dont need a fancy dbm or
an iconic number of engineering controls, to say what the dbm was when I
worked the guy. When you contest, who the hell cares, hear him, work him,
move on. In simple terms, I just want selectivity, and no agc pumping and
no front in desensing from a 40 db over nine station 2khz away.

Im looking forward to a quiet front end, that keeps me from having to
listen to 48 hours of static that is generated by the stages with in the
radio. Love my K3S, great radio. Simple to operate once you learn its
controls and never has failed me.

Looking forward to K4 delivery.

Vy 73,
Morgan Bailey NJ8M

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:33 PM Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Now that the K4 has exact knowledge of its gains and losses through the
> preamps, attenuators, splitters, bandpass filters and so forth, could this
> enable an alternate way of visualizing the receiver's range? This alternate
> measurement would be quite useful in setting the controls optimally for any
> situation.
>
> Imagine a scale -- I suppose it would be in dBm -- showing the K4's total
> dynamic range. Say it's 100 dB in total. The lowest point is the minimum
> discernable signal (MDS); the highest point is the damage level, or if
> that's a bit too frightening, call it the maximum ADC level or something
> else to denote it as a Level Not To Be Exceeded.
>
> Since the K4 will know not only what the noise floor of the band you're
> listening to is, but the absolute value of that level in dBm, the scale can
> be annotated with a dynamic marker to show where the band noise falls in
> that 100 dB range. I'm calling it 'dynamic' because it'll vary a few dB as
> band noise does, but it will sit at a calibrated level, relatively
> motionless on the scale as Wayne described the S-meter doing.
>
> As the operator kicks in more gain by turning on preamps or turning up the
> RF Gain, the scale shifts downward by the same amount. For instance, if the
> scale was showing -120 to -20 dBm -- a 100 dB range -- and then the
> operator turns on a 10 dB preamp, the scale must change to -130 to -30 dBm,
> because the preamp has made the receiver more sensitive while also reducing
> the max permissible level.
>
> Conversely, if the operator turned on 10 dB of attenuation, then the scale
> would shift upward to -110 to -10 dBm, indicating clearly that sensitivity
> is being sacrificed for greater large signal handling capability. The noise
> floor, being a relative constant, would move closer to the bottom of the
> window, or rather, the window would move relative to the noise floor in
> such a way as to place it 10 dB closer to the bottom end.
>
> So actually, as I'm thinking about this, the meter wouldn't move at all.
> It's the noise marker that would float higher and lower within the window
> as you varied the controls, just as on an S-meter. I guess what I'm
> describing here is more or less an S-meter calibrated in dBm!
>
> But perhaps the best reason for looking at the receiver this way would be
> to tune the controls precisely for a given noise floor. Twenty meters, with
> its -120 dBm noise floor, will require one combination of preamps and/or
> attenuators. On 80 meters, if the noise is, say, -100 dBm, the operator
> knows (because he can see the graphic) exactly how much attenuation is
> acceptable while still keeping the band noise marker in the operating
> range. It would behoove the operator to keep the noise floor marker near
> the bottom to 1) give him the maximum dynamic range under those conditions,
> and 2) to avoid becoming "my K4 is noisy" guy.
>
> Presumably, as each K4 goes through RF calibration at the factory it will
> know exactly the gain of each preamp, attenuator, filter, and splitter in
> its path. The scale could be custom for each individual unit, although I
> wouldn't want to start any "my K4 is more sensitive than yours" wars.
>
> I leave it to the programmers to decide on the specific eye candy of such
> a readout. I for one would find this type of meter fun and useful in
> getting a mental picture of where in dynamic range space the receiver is
> sitting.
>
> Can anybody see any flaws in this idea? I can foresee at least one. I
> don't know how the front end of the K4 will work, but if it is constantly
> moving the receiver range in response to what it hears, that is, in
> response to the total amount of power incident on its antenna port, then
> perhaps that might pose a real challenge to giving this type of feedback to
> the user. I don't know.
>
> Al W6LX
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

stengrevics

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

Agree completely. I find all S meters to be totally inaccurate and next to useless, including my K3S’.

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Maybe it is just me but, Turn the radio on, adjust the audio/rf/agc
> controls, hear the station, work him, move on. I dont need a fancy dbm or
> an iconic number of engineering controls, to say what the dbm was when I
> worked the guy. When you contest, who the hell cares, hear him, work him,
> move on. In simple terms, I just want selectivity, and no agc pumping and
> no front in desensing from a 40 db over nine station 2khz away.
>
> Im looking forward to a quiet front end, that keeps me from having to
> listen to 48 hours of static that is generated by the stages with in the
> radio. Love my K3S, great radio. Simple to operate once you learn its
> controls and never has failed me.
>
> Looking forward to K4 delivery.
>
> Vy 73,
> Morgan Bailey NJ8M
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 11:33 PM Al Lorona <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Now that the K4 has exact knowledge of its gains and losses through the
>> preamps, attenuators, splitters, bandpass filters and so forth, could this
>> enable an alternate way of visualizing the receiver's range? This alternate
>> measurement would be quite useful in setting the controls optimally for any
>> situation.
>>
>> Imagine a scale -- I suppose it would be in dBm -- showing the K4's total
>> dynamic range. Say it's 100 dB in total. The lowest point is the minimum
>> discernable signal (MDS); the highest point is the damage level, or if
>> that's a bit too frightening, call it the maximum ADC level or something
>> else to denote it as a Level Not To Be Exceeded.
>>
>> Since the K4 will know not only what the noise floor of the band you're
>> listening to is, but the absolute value of that level in dBm, the scale can
>> be annotated with a dynamic marker to show where the band noise falls in
>> that 100 dB range. I'm calling it 'dynamic' because it'll vary a few dB as
>> band noise does, but it will sit at a calibrated level, relatively
>> motionless on the scale as Wayne described the S-meter doing.
>>
>> As the operator kicks in more gain by turning on preamps or turning up the
>> RF Gain, the scale shifts downward by the same amount. For instance, if the
>> scale was showing -120 to -20 dBm -- a 100 dB range -- and then the
>> operator turns on a 10 dB preamp, the scale must change to -130 to -30 dBm,
>> because the preamp has made the receiver more sensitive while also reducing
>> the max permissible level.
>>
>> Conversely, if the operator turned on 10 dB of attenuation, then the scale
>> would shift upward to -110 to -10 dBm, indicating clearly that sensitivity
>> is being sacrificed for greater large signal handling capability. The noise
>> floor, being a relative constant, would move closer to the bottom of the
>> window, or rather, the window would move relative to the noise floor in
>> such a way as to place it 10 dB closer to the bottom end.
>>
>> So actually, as I'm thinking about this, the meter wouldn't move at all.
>> It's the noise marker that would float higher and lower within the window
>> as you varied the controls, just as on an S-meter. I guess what I'm
>> describing here is more or less an S-meter calibrated in dBm!
>>
>> But perhaps the best reason for looking at the receiver this way would be
>> to tune the controls precisely for a given noise floor. Twenty meters, with
>> its -120 dBm noise floor, will require one combination of preamps and/or
>> attenuators. On 80 meters, if the noise is, say, -100 dBm, the operator
>> knows (because he can see the graphic) exactly how much attenuation is
>> acceptable while still keeping the band noise marker in the operating
>> range. It would behoove the operator to keep the noise floor marker near
>> the bottom to 1) give him the maximum dynamic range under those conditions,
>> and 2) to avoid becoming "my K4 is noisy" guy.
>>
>> Presumably, as each K4 goes through RF calibration at the factory it will
>> know exactly the gain of each preamp, attenuator, filter, and splitter in
>> its path. The scale could be custom for each individual unit, although I
>> wouldn't want to start any "my K4 is more sensitive than yours" wars.
>>
>> I leave it to the programmers to decide on the specific eye candy of such
>> a readout. I for one would find this type of meter fun and useful in
>> getting a mental picture of where in dynamic range space the receiver is
>> sitting.
>>
>> Can anybody see any flaws in this idea? I can foresee at least one. I
>> don't know how the front end of the K4 will work, but if it is constantly
>> moving the receiver range in response to what it hears, that is, in
>> response to the total amount of power incident on its antenna port, then
>> perhaps that might pose a real challenge to giving this type of feedback to
>> the user. I don't know.
>>
>> Al W6LX
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

S-meters should be calibrated with 9 signal levels:

*Faint - Signal barely perceptible
*Very weak signals
*Weak signals
*Fair signals
*Fairly good signals
*Good signals
*Moderately strong signals
*Strong signals
*Extremely strong signals

(Reprinted from the 1947 ARRL Handbook, page 466 "RST System of Signal Reports")

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of John Stengrevics
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 7:49 AM
To: Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 S-meter characteristics

Agree completely. I find all S meters to be totally inaccurate and next to useless, including my K3S’.

Craig Smith-4

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

In reply to this post by stengrevics

It is very true that - in a contest situation - we aren’t often concerned with measuring signal levels. No argument.

And, if contesting, DXing and rag chewing are all you use your K3 / K4 for, then I understand why you aren’t interested in the additional bells & whistles that are being discussed here.

But many of us use the K3 / K4 for other purposes also. Even with the current implementation in the K3 / K3S, the dbm referenced signal measurement capability is extremely useful. My K3 was invaluable when I had an electronics lab as a very sensitive and selective calibrated RF voltmeter. Used it constantly both for design and for troubleshooting during many construction projects.

I think the kinds of enhancements being discussed here will be a valuable addition to the K4 and encourage additional discussion.

73 Craig AC0DS
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

Don’t forget “contest” mode, where the meter reads S-9 for all signals :-)

Grant NQ5T

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> S-meters should be calibrated with 9 signal levels:
>
> *Faint - Signal barely perceptible
> *Very weak signals
> *Weak signals
> *Fair signals
> *Fairly good signals
> *Good signals
> *Moderately strong signals
> *Strong signals
> *Extremely strong signals
>
> (Reprinted from the 1947 ARRL Handbook, page 466 "RST System of Signal Reports")
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>

bdenley

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

In reply to this post by Charlie T, K3ICH

The International Amateur Radio Union (IARU) Region 1 agreed on a technical recommendation for S Meter calibration for HF and VHF/UHF transceivers in 1981.

Why go back to 1947?

Brian Denley
KB1VBF
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> S-meters should be calibrated with 9 signal levels:
>
> *Faint - Signal barely perceptible
> *Very weak signals
> *Weak signals
> *Fair signals
> *Fairly good signals
> *Good signals
> *Moderately strong signals
> *Strong signals
> *Extremely strong signals
>
> (Reprinted from the 1947 ARRL Handbook, page 466 "RST System of Signal Reports")
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of John Stengrevics
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 7:49 AM
> To: Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 S-meter characteristics
>
> Agree completely. I find all S meters to be totally inaccurate and next to useless, including my K3S’.
>
>> On Apr 24, 2020, at 7:43 AM, Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe it is just me but, Turn the radio on, adjust the audio/rf/agc
>> controls, hear the station, work him, move on. I dont need a fancy dbm
>> or an iconic number of engineering controls, to say what the dbm was
>> when I worked the guy. When you contest, who the hell cares, hear him,
>> work him, move on. In simple terms, I just want selectivity, and no
>> agc pumping and no front in desensing from a 40 db over nine station 2khz away.
>>
>> Im looking forward to a quiet front end, that keeps me from having to
>> listen to 48 hours of static that is generated by the stages with in
>> the radio. Love my K3S, great radio. Simple to operate once you learn
>> its controls and never has failed me.
>>
>> Looking forward to K4 delivery.
>>
>> Vy 73,
>> Morgan Bailey NJ8M
>>
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

DL4ZBG

Re: K4 S-meter characteristics

Well said, Brian. A calibrated S-meter may be helpfull for side-to-side on-air equipment comparisons (e.g. antennas) and not for contest business. From time to time you will even find a few people fighting the 20dB HF to VHF/UHF offset....

Real- world VHF transverters do need slightly more than 20dB rx coversion gain (abt 25dB), so an "transverter s- meter correction" would be highly appreciated for the K4.

My ANAN SDRs do have it, my K3 not....

73
Volker

DL4ZBG/DK0B

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [Elecraft] K4 S-meter characteristics
Datum: 2020-04-25T01:45:37+0200
Von: "Brian Denley" <[hidden email]>
An: "Charlie T" <[hidden email]>

The International Amateur Radio Union (IARU) Region 1 agreed on a technical recommendation for S Meter calibration for HF and VHF/UHF transceivers in 1981.

Why go back to 1947?

Brian Denley
KB1VBF
Sent from my iPad

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Edward A. Dauer

K4 S-Meter Characteristics

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Who uses S-values anyway? Maybe for serious propagation measurements, but I haven't heard anything but "5NN" or "59" in a contest as far back as I can remember, and likewise in CW DX work. It's programmed into the logging software and probably impossible to dislodge. I was recently in a DX pileup and decided to send a real report, 459, so the DX knew how he was actually doing in my part of the world. I could almost feel the annoyance coming back at me through the ether from both the fox and the other hounds. On CW and SSB rag chews I have heard real reports being exchanged, about both the signal and -- more commonly on SSB -- in complaints about the noise. But even there what matters is readability above the noise, not the microvolts themselves. IMHO, it's interesting to have S numbers on the scale of my P3, but if they disappeared from the K3 display it would be a long time before I noticed their absence.

"59 Good Buddy" (whatever that means),

Ted, KN1CBR

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 19:43:35 -0400
From: Brian Denley <[hidden email]>
To: Charlie T <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 S-meter characteristics
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

The International Amateur Radio Union (IARU) Region 1 agreed on a technical recommendation for S Meter calibration for HF and VHF/UHF transceivers in 1981.

Why go back to 1947?

Brian Denley
KB1VBF
Sent from my iPad

> On Apr 24, 2020, at 6:30 PM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ?S-meters should be calibrated with 9 signal levels:
>
> *Faint - Signal barely perceptible
> *Very weak signals
> *Weak signals
> *Fair signals
> *Fairly good signals
> *Good signals
> *Moderately strong signals
> *Strong signals
> *Extremely strong signals
>
> (Reprinted from the 1947 ARRL Handbook, page 466 "RST System of Signal Reports")
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of John Stengrevics
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 7:49 AM
> To: Morgan Bailey <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 S-meter characteristics
>
> Agree completely. I find all S meters to be totally inaccurate and next to useless, including my K3S?.
>

********************
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]