K4 full duplex?

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

For years certain appliances, stoves, clothes dryers, water heaters used
240 volts and the ground was used to supply the 120 volt items as
required.    Current electrical code requires L1, L2, Neutral, and
Ground thus 4 wires and not 3.

In some ham amplifiers the fan ran off of the split primary to supply
120 volts when the amp was being operated from 240 volts. Thus the
ground/neutral was not a current carrying conductor.

When I installed the 240 volt service to my operating position, I used 4
conductors of #10, thus I have L1, L2, Neutral and Ground. Of course the
neutral and ground are bonded at the breaker panel as required by code. 
The ground is a non current carrying conductor, unless an equipment
fault occurs.

73

Bob, K4TAX


On 5/19/2019 8:04 AM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

> I have in fact seen some home brew amplifiers wired with ground used as the neutral...and it was impossible to talk the owner out of it. It has also appeared in some of the schematics in the literature over the decades.
>
> BTW, I think if instead of saying "phases", it would be less confusing to say two "legs" plus neutral for the single phase 240 vac coming into the house.
>
> Chuck Hawley
>   [hidden email]
>
>   Amateur Radio, KE9UW
>   aka Jack, BMW Motorcycles
>
> ________________________________
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> on behalf of K9MA <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2019 9:28 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours
>
> Some equipment in NA is wired with both phases plus neutral, so that 120
> V is available. Electric clothes driers and stoves, for example, which
> have light bulbs and sometimes 120 V outlets. (You can imagine what
> would have happened if 240 V bulbs had been required here.) However, at
> one time the code did not require separate neutral and ground wires, so
> the ground was used as the 120 V return. If the ground opens up, your
> whole stove is suddenly at 120 V. Unfortunately, some of those are still
> around, and seem to be sort of grandfathered, or just ignored.
>
> Hopefully, there's no ham equipment wired that way!
>
> 73,
> Scott K9MA
>
>
>
> On 5/18/2019 19:16, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 5/18/2019 4:28 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>>> 230VAC on 3 wires?  Never knew they did 3 wire 220V....  I always
>>> assumed it was still 2 hots and ground (plus an optional neutral).
>> Two hots (phases) and ground is three wires. Single-phase power
>> normally comes into a building in North America as two phases and a
>> neutral. We connect a 240V load between the two phases, and a 120V
>> load between one phase and a neutral. It's not unusual to feed a
>> sub-panel with both phases, neutral, and ground so that the panel can
>> feed both 120V and 240V loads. The key here is that loads must NEVER
>> be connected between a phase and ground, ALWAYS between phases or
>> between phase and neutral.
>>
>> You probably know that EU runs on 230/240V, wired phase, neutral, and
>> ground.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> --
> Scott  K9MA
>
> [hidden email]
>
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[Jim Brown-10]

On 5/19/2019 6:04 AM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> BTW, I think if instead of saying "phases", it would be less confusing to say two "legs" plus neutral for the single phase 240 vac coming into the house.

"Phase" is the word used in electrical codes (i.e., Law).

73, Jim K9YC

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 5/19/2019 6:04 AM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:
> I have in fact seen some home brew amplifiers wired with ground used as the neutral...and it was impossible to talk the owner out of it.

There seems to be no cure for stupidity.

73, Jim K9YC

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[Phil Kane-2]

On 5/19/2019 6:04 AM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

> BTW, I think if instead of saying "phases", it would be less
> confusing to say two "legs" plus neutral for the single phase 240 vac
> coming into the house.

As an electrical engineer whose major was "power" (back when it was
actually taught) I would agree wholeheartedly.  The "2 hot plus neutral"
is most often a single phase of a three-phase delta 240V secondary with
tapped center as "neutral".  It could not be two phases of a wye because
the voltage from phase to phase would then be 208V for 120V
phase-to-neutral.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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[Phil Kane-2]

On 5/18/2019 4:28 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> 230VAC on 3 wires?  Never knew they did 3 wire 220V....  I always
> assumed it was still 2 hots and ground (plus an optional neutral).

In distribution service 240V "single phase" is two "hots" (usually
black/red)plus neutral (usually white), with a physical ground electrode
(ground rod or equivalent) at the transformer and another ground
electrode at the CSED (Customer Service Entrance Device - a fancy name
for the meter plus main disconnect).  Those grounds do not carry load
current, only fault current.  Three-phase distribution obviously has
three "hots" (usually black/red/blue) with neutral only if it is
120/208V wye or one of the phases of a 240V delta service is tapped for
120/240 single phase service.    Separate grounds still apply.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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[Doug Turnbull]

Peter,

     I was okay because it was shipped directly from the factory.    This
ability to purchase direct is important to me.    We do not have a dealer in
EI and well the UK is leaving the EU.   I just as soon purchase direct.    

 

     I am sure the UK sellers include a UK power cable as do the continental
retailiers.

 

     Elecraft does a pretty good job.   Changing a plug is not problem.
Thanks for your help though.

 

                     73 Doug EI2CN

 

  _____  

From: Peter Hall [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 19 May 2019 01:21
To: turnbull; Ken Winterling
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

 

You're welcome, Doug.  I'm glad you have the KPA1500 up and running.

 

Your note, and my recollection of installing my own KPA1500, identify an
important omission in the KPA1500 manual.  Some other shortcomings of the
manual (such as a decent working block diagram) are merely irritating but
not including the proper mains connection for a $5000  device shipped
internationally is a serious oversight.  It's clear there is not a
widespread appreciation of global power standards in this email group (for
example) and, rather than having a future user stumble across incorrect or
incomplete information, the Elecraft manual needs to have the definitive
instructions up-front.

 

I'm not sure how the EU regulations are constructed but I suspect that it's
technically illegal to use the supplied cable in Australia.  For Australian
users a more immediate consideration on opening the box is that the US cable
won't fit through a standard Australian mains plug cover.  You can buy one
Clipsal brand plug from a specialised electrical wholesaler which will work,
or you can use a heavy duty plug and socket if available.  

 

73, Peter.

 

 

 

From: turnbull <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2019 10:14 PM
To: Peter Hall <[hidden email]>; Ken Winterling <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

 

TU Peter, the amp is up and running.   73 Doug EI2CN

 

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Peter Hall <[hidden email]>

Date: 18/05/2019 11:55 (GMT+00:00)

To: Ken Winterling <[hidden email]>, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]>

Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>

Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

 

Ken, Doug

Ken is correct.  Your amplifier comes with a US colour coded cable and, for
your 230V supply, black is active, white is neutral and green is earth.

I had some additional searching to find an Australian heavy duty plug that
would fit the supplied mains cable and a standard 240V outlet, but was in
the end successful.

Regards,
Peter, VK6HP



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Ken Winterling
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2019 6:24 PM
To: Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

Doug,I don't have a KPA1500 but these are the standard power cord wire
colors and functions:

*Function   USA      Europe*
Neutral       White    Blue
Hot             Black     Brown
Ground       Green   Green/Yellow stripe

If there is any doubt you can send an email to Elecraft; they are very
responsive and helpful.

Ken
WA2LBI


On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 5:36 AM Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dear OMs or YLs,
>      I have a new KPA1500 for use in Europe.  Mine came from Elecraft
> direct and thus has a US style mains plug and I assume US colour coded
> AC power
> lead.    What are the USA colours for Live, Neutral and Ground?
>
> The manual does not supply a schematic and I do not want to open the amp
at
> this time.   I can look on line for this information but am asking as
> regards the KPA1500 so as to be certain.
>
> Thank you.
>
>              73 Doug EI2CN
>
>
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[Peter Hall]

Doug

It's much the same situation here: no Elecraft distributor, so I'm also appreciative of direct factory shipping.  But for the safety of all concerned, a clear explanation in the manual of the mains wiring connections in even a couple of the major jurisdictions is essential.

My comment re the 230V cable colour code was more directed to ourselves as "importers".  Although I don't propose to change mine anytime soon,  partly because I already have a lot of Collins gear running off a shack 120V system (including contemporary US cabling and connectors), I suspect that, strictly speaking, I should.

73, Peter.

From: Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, 20 May 2019 2:51 AM
To: Peter Hall <[hidden email]>; 'Ken Winterling' <[hidden email]>
Cc: 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

Peter,
     I was okay because it was shipped directly from the factory.    This ability to purchase direct is important to me.    We do not have a dealer in EI and well the UK is leaving the EU.   I just as soon purchase direct.

     I am sure the UK sellers include a UK power cable as do the continental retailiers.

     Elecraft does a pretty good job.   Changing a plug is not problem.   Thanks for your help though.

                     73 Doug EI2CN

________________________________
From: Peter Hall [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 19 May 2019 01:21
To: turnbull; Ken Winterling
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

You're welcome, Doug.  I'm glad you have the KPA1500 up and running.

Your note, and my recollection of installing my own KPA1500, identify an important omission in the KPA1500 manual.  Some other shortcomings of the manual (such as a decent working block diagram) are merely irritating but not including the proper mains connection for a $5000  device shipped internationally is a serious oversight.  It's clear there is not a widespread appreciation of global power standards in this email group (for example) and, rather than having a future user stumble across incorrect or incomplete information, the Elecraft manual needs to have the definitive instructions up-front.

I'm not sure how the EU regulations are constructed but I suspect that it's technically illegal to use the supplied cable in Australia.  For Australian users a more immediate consideration on opening the box is that the US cable won't fit through a standard Australian mains plug cover.  You can buy one Clipsal brand plug from a specialised electrical wholesaler which will work, or you can use a heavy duty plug and socket if available.

73, Peter.



From: turnbull <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2019 10:14 PM
To: Peter Hall <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>; Ken Winterling <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

TU Peter, the amp is up and running.   73 Doug EI2CN



Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------
From: Peter Hall <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Date: 18/05/2019 11:55 (GMT+00:00)
To: Ken Winterling <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

Ken, Doug

Ken is correct.  Your amplifier comes with a US colour coded cable and, for your 230V supply, black is active, white is neutral and green is earth.

I had some additional searching to find an Australian heavy duty plug that would fit the supplied mains cable and a standard 240V outlet, but was in the end successful.

Regards,
Peter, VK6HP



-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]> <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> On Behalf Of Ken Winterling
Sent: Saturday, 18 May 2019 6:24 PM
To: Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

Doug,I don't have a KPA1500 but these are the standard power cord wire colors and functions:

*Function   USA      Europe*
Neutral       White    Blue
Hot             Black     Brown
Ground       Green   Green/Yellow stripe

If there is any doubt you can send an email to Elecraft; they are very responsive and helpful.

Ken
WA2LBI


On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 5:36 AM Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:

> Dear OMs or YLs,
>      I have a new KPA1500 for use in Europe.  Mine came from Elecraft
> direct and thus has a US style mains plug and I assume US colour coded
> AC power
> lead.    What are the USA colours for Live, Neutral and Ground?
>
> The manual does not supply a schematic and I do not want to open the amp at
> this time.   I can look on line for this information but am asking as
> regards the KPA1500 so as to be certain.
>
> Thank you.
>
>              73 Doug EI2CN
>
>

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[Charlie T, K3ICH]

AAARRRGHH, I almost flunked out of engineering school on all that Delta/Wye
and conversion stuff !
Curiously, I sailed through the 1st two quarters where DC circuits & Ohm's
law was taught.
Hey, I had my ham license....I KNEW all this stuff already...HAH.  3Ø AC
theory just about did me in.

To this day, I don't believe I have EVER had the need for a Laplace
transform though.

73, Charlie k3ICH






-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Phil Kane
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2019 2:14 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 AC Mains wire colours

On 5/19/2019 6:04 AM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

> BTW, I think if instead of saying "phases", it would be less confusing
> to say two "legs" plus neutral for the single phase 240 vac coming
> into the house.

As an electrical engineer whose major was "power" (back when it was actually
taught) I would agree wholeheartedly.  The "2 hot plus neutral"
is most often a single phase of a three-phase delta 240V secondary with
tapped center as "neutral".  It could not be two phases of a wye because the
voltage from phase to phase would then be 208V for 120V phase-to-neutral.

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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[n0uk]

Sorry, I'm not being pedantic but standard US home supply is NOT two phaes
plus ground, it is still single phase 120-0-120 Vac with the 0 volt being
grounded and tied to the neutral line for each of the two anti-phase hot
lines.

The power is distributed around the area as three phase and each of those
three phases is then typically split between three properties at the
outdoor powerpole.

--
73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC
[hidden email]

On Sat, 18 May 2019, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 5/18/2019 4:28 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
> > 230VAC on 3 wires?  Never knew they did 3 wire 220V....  I always
> > assumed it was still 2 hots and ground (plus an optional neutral).
>
> Two hots (phases) and ground is three wires. Single-phase power normally
> comes into a building in North America as two phases and a neutral. We
> connect a 240V load between the two phases, and a 120V load between one
> phase and a neutral. It's not unusual to feed a sub-panel with both
> phases, neutral, and ground so that the panel can feed both 120V and
> 240V loads. The key here is that loads must NEVER be connected between a
> phase and ground, ALWAYS between phases or between phase and neutral.
>
> You probably know that EU runs on 230/240V, wired phase, neutral, and
> ground.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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[k6dgw]

Jim is using the NEC terminology of "phase" meaning any hot conductor,
not that two of the three phases are brought into service entrance.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 5/20/2019 8:41 AM, Chris Cox, N0UK wrote:

> Sorry, I'm not being pedantic but standard US home supply is NOT two phaes
> plus ground, it is still single phase 120-0-120 Vac with the 0 volt being
> grounded and tied to the neutral line for each of the two anti-phase hot
> lines.
>
> The power is distributed around the area as three phase and each of those
> three phases is then typically split between three properties at the
> outdoor powerpole.
>
> --
> 73 Chris Cox, N0UK, G4JEC
> [hidden email]
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2019, Jim Brown wrote:
>
>> On 5/18/2019 4:28 PM, Clay Autery wrote:
>>> 230VAC on 3 wires?  Never knew they did 3 wire 220V....  I always
>>> assumed it was still 2 hots and ground (plus an optional neutral).
>> Two hots (phases) and ground is three wires. Single-phase power normally
>> comes into a building in North America as two phases and a neutral. We
>> connect a 240V load between the two phases, and a 120V load between one
>> phase and a neutral. It's not unusual to feed a sub-panel with both
>> phases, neutral, and ground so that the panel can feed both 120V and
>> 240V loads. The key here is that loads must NEVER be connected between a
>> phase and ground, ALWAYS between phases or between phase and neutral.
>>
>> You probably know that EU runs on 230/240V, wired phase, neutral, and
>> ground.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>
>>

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