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K4 on AM

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Grant Youngman-2

K4 on AM

One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political” restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example, should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.

Grant NQ5T
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wayne burdick

Re: K4 on AM

Administrator

Hi Grant,

The K4 will allow independent setting of TX bandwidth for voice and audio data modes up to something in excess of 4 kHz. SSB, ESSB, AM, and audio data will each have their own setting.

As with the K3S, it'll be up to the user to judge whether the use of wider bandwidths is acceptable under the given operating conditions. This subject will be discussed in the owner's manual.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Feb 28, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political” restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example, should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.
>
> Grant NQ5T

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W2xj

Re: K4 on AM

am should go to at least 6 KHz or be totally unrestricted.

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 28, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Grant,
>
> The K4 will allow independent setting of TX bandwidth for voice and audio data modes up to something in excess of 4 kHz. SSB, ESSB, AM, and audio data will each have their own setting.
>
> As with the K3S, it'll be up to the user to judge whether the use of wider bandwidths is acceptable under the given operating conditions. This subject will be discussed in the owner's manual.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Feb 28, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political” restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example, should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.
>>
>> Grant NQ5T
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: K4 on AM

Administrator

I believe the theoretical limit is in the 5.something range, and we'll certainly test this.

Wayne

> On Feb 28, 2020, at 4:30 PM, W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> am should go to at least 6 KHz or be totally unrestricted.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Feb 28, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Grant,
>>
>> The K4 will allow independent setting of TX bandwidth for voice and audio data modes up to something in excess of 4 kHz. SSB, ESSB, AM, and audio data will each have their own setting.
>>
>> As with the K3S, it'll be up to the user to judge whether the use of wider bandwidths is acceptable under the given operating conditions. This subject will be discussed in the owner's manual.
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 28, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political” restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example, should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.
>>>
>>> Grant NQ5T
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: K4 on AM

Administrator

In reply to this post by W2xj

One note - Wayne is saying the K4 -audio- b/w in AM will be somewhere
between 4 and 5 kHz. The actual DSB AM b/w that results will be between 8
and 10 kHz.

73,
Eric
*elecraft.com <http://elecraft.com>*

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:31 PM W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:

> am should go to at least 6 KHz or be totally unrestricted.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Feb 28, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Grant,
> >
> > The K4 will allow independent setting of TX bandwidth for voice and
> audio data modes up to something in excess of 4 kHz. SSB, ESSB, AM, and
> audio data will each have their own setting.
> >
> > As with the K3S, it'll be up to the user to judge whether the use of
> wider bandwidths is acceptable under the given operating conditions. This
> subject will be discussed in the owner's manual.
> >
> > Wayne
> > N6KR
> >
> >
> >> On Feb 28, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit
> bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options
> substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of
> the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political”
> restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example,
> should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance
> with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.
> >>
> >> Grant NQ5T
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Grant Youngman-2

Re: K4 on AM

An audio response of 4-5 KHz isn’t unreasonable. A maximum around 6 KHz would be better, and since it will be adjustable, the response (with relatively steep rolloff) can be tailored to be compatible with band conditions and occupancy as necessary.

I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.

Grant NQ5T

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Eric Swartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One note - Wayne is saying the K4 -audio- b/w in AM will be somewhere
> between 4 and 5 kHz. The actual DSB AM b/w that results will be between 8
> and 10 kHz.
>
> 73,
> Eric
> *elecraft.com <http://elecraft.com>*
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: K4 on AM

On 3/2/2020 8:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.

Not related to AM, but my P3/SVGA sees a LOT of very splattery SSB
signals generated by low cost JA transceivers. A few weeks ago during a
contest, I saw it on the signal of a local, fairly new ham, told him
about it, and volunteered to help him fix it by listening and watching
as he adjusted drive to his amp. Turned out it was his radio, a $1700
Yaesu FTDX3000. Splatter from these signals is often as wide on both
sides of the signal as the signal itself. I measured his splatter as
less than 20 dB down from his intentional signal.

There's a roundtable that hangs out just above the FT8 slot on 160; most
of the radios are clean, but there's usually one or two that splatters
down into FT8.

73, Jim K9YC
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W2xj

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Sounds like there might be a sample rate issue.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Eric Swartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> One note - Wayne is saying the K4 -audio- b/w in AM will be somewhere
> between 4 and 5 kHz. The actual DSB AM b/w that results will be between 8
> and 10 kHz.
>
> 73,
> Eric
> *elecraft.com <http://elecraft.com>*
>
>
>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:31 PM W2xj <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> am should go to at least 6 KHz or be totally unrestricted.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Grant,
>>>
>>> The K4 will allow independent setting of TX bandwidth for voice and
>> audio data modes up to something in excess of 4 kHz. SSB, ESSB, AM, and
>> audio data will each have their own setting.
>>>
>>> As with the K3S, it'll be up to the user to judge whether the use of
>> wider bandwidths is acceptable under the given operating conditions. This
>> subject will be discussed in the owner's manual.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 28, 2020, at 1:48 PM, Grant Youngman <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One key spec we haven’t heard anything about yet is the transmit
>> bandwidth capability of the K4 on AM. I certainly hope the design options
>> substantially exceed the rather poor and restricted transmit bandwidth of
>> the K3, and that there aren’t any unnecessary artificial “political”
>> restrictions. It would seem that the K4, like the Flex radios for example,
>> should be capable of providing outstanding, clean, AM transmit performance
>> with adjustable transmit audio bandwidth to suit conditions, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Grant NQ5T
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Adrian-3

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

That's interesting re the FTDX3000. I run a KX3 qrp, and to get 100w
with KXPA100 w ATU new, I am looking at $2650 (aud) , whereas

I can get a new FTDX3000 for $2000 from the local Yaesu dealer, which
seems way better value to get 100w operating option.

I know some IMD fussy types that use the FTDX, so on your comments Jim,
I may have to investigate further.

Thankyou for the info.

Adrian ... vk4tux

On 3/3/20 3:13 am, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/2/2020 8:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>> I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some
>> circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common
>> sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.
>
> Not related to AM, but my P3/SVGA sees a LOT of very splattery SSB
> signals generated by low cost JA transceivers. A few weeks ago during
> a contest, I saw it on the signal of a local, fairly new ham, told him
> about it, and volunteered to help him fix it by listening and watching
> as he adjusted drive to his amp. Turned out it was his radio, a $1700
> Yaesu FTDX3000. Splatter from these signals is often as wide on both
> sides of the signal as the signal itself. I measured his splatter as
> less than 20 dB down from his intentional signal.
>
> There's a roundtable that hangs out just above the FT8 slot on 160;
> most of the radios are clean, but there's usually one or two that
> splatters down into FT8.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman-2

On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>
> A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,

Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
service not an entertainment medium.

As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:

> An audio response of 4-5 KHz isn’t unreasonable. A maximum around 6 KHz would be better, and since it will be adjustable, the response (with relatively steep rolloff) can be tailored to be compatible with band conditions and occupancy as necessary.
>
> I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Eric Swartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> One note - Wayne is saying the K4 -audio- b/w in AM will be somewhere
>> between 4 and 5 kHz. The actual DSB AM b/w that results will be between 8
>> and 10 kHz.
>>
>> 73,
>> Eric
>> *elecraft.com <http://elecraft.com>*
>>
>>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 2020-03-02 12:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> Turned out it was his radio, a $1700 Yaesu FTDX3000.
Yaesu, in particular, "tune" the IF gain of their rigs
too "hot". W8JI has documented the issue as far back as
the FT-1000 and FT-1000MP. The "hot" IF causes the final
amplifiers to be driven into clipping which is hell on
IMD.

When a user cranks up the low frequency audio EQ on those
rigs and then uses high level of audio processing the
unfiltered (as in after the DSP/IF filter) PA chain
clipping runs wild.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2020-03-02 12:13 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 3/2/2020 8:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>> I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some
>> circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common
>> sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.
>
> Not related to AM, but my P3/SVGA sees a LOT of very splattery SSB
> signals generated by low cost JA transceivers. A few weeks ago during a
> contest, I saw it on the signal of a local, fairly new ham, told him
> about it, and volunteered to help him fix it by listening and watching
> as he adjusted drive to his amp. Turned out it was his radio, a $1700
> Yaesu FTDX3000. Splatter from these signals is often as wide on both
> sides of the signal as the signal itself. I measured his splatter as
> less than 20 dB down from his intentional signal.
>
> There's a roundtable that hangs out just above the FT8 slot on 160; most
> of the radios are clean, but there's usually one or two that splatters
> down into FT8.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC

Grant Youngman-2

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

smh … :-(

Why did I know this would happen? Do we really have to keep beating this same tired horse? Really?

Grant NQ5T

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> >
> > A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
>
> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
> service not an entertainment medium.
>
> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
> ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>

David Gilbert

Re: K4 on AM

Well, when a minority few seem to think that they should be special
enough to use far more bandwidth than the rest of us do, then I'd say
the horse isn't dead yet. If everyone ran AM that wide that the bands
would sound horrible. If that isn't a good enough definition of
presumed entitlement I don't know what is.

Why Elecraft is willing to enable people to use 10 KHz of bandwidth for
no good communication reason is beyond me. It would certainly make me
think thrice about supporting a K4.

And Joe didn't bring up the subject ... you and W2XJ did.

Dave AB7E

On 3/2/2020 1:13 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:

> smh … :-(
>
> Why did I know this would happen? Do we really have to keep beating this same tired horse? Really?
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>>> A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
>> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
>> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
>> service not an entertainment medium.
>>
>> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
>> ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Rose

Re: K4 on AM

Well said, Dave

73

K0PP

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 14:23 David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Well, when a minority few seem to think that they should be special
> enough to use far more bandwidth than the rest of us do, then I'd say
> the horse isn't dead yet. If everyone ran AM that wide that the bands
> would sound horrible. If that isn't a good enough definition of
> presumed entitlement I don't know what is.
>
> Why Elecraft is willing to enable people to use 10 KHz of bandwidth for
> no good communication reason is beyond me. It would certainly make me
> think thrice about supporting a K4.
>
> And Joe didn't bring up the subject ... you and W2XJ did.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 3/2/2020 1:13 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> > smh … :-(
> >
> > Why did I know this would happen? Do we really have to keep beating
> this same tired horse? Really?
> >
> > Grant NQ5T
> >
> >> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> >>> A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
> >> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
> >> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
> >> service not an entertainment medium.
> >>
> >> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
> >> ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

On 3/2/2020 12:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
> ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."

The guy who said it was Riley Hollingsworth, who almost single-handedly
cleaned up the ham bands before retiring 8-10 years ago.

I personally have no problem with wider bandwidth IF it's not practiced
on crowded bands. At this low part of the solar cycle, bands like 40 and
20 phone bands are pretty packed when they're open, and prop on the
higher bands mostly stinks. :) Wider bandwidth can certainly work in the
Extra segment of 75 and the upper part of 160.

73, Jim K9YC
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Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Rose

I think he "may" be confusing the high audio limit with the resulting 2X bandwidth.

6kHz transmit bandwidth is obviously NOT the result of 6 KHz audio.

However, it is easy to get mixed up on this.

Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Rose
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2020 4:30 PM
To: David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 on AM

Well said, Dave

73

K0PP

On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 14:23 David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Well, when a minority few seem to think that they should be special
> enough to use far more bandwidth than the rest of us do, then I'd say
> the horse isn't dead yet. If everyone ran AM that wide that the bands
> would sound horrible. If that isn't a good enough definition of
> presumed entitlement I don't know what is.
>
> Why Elecraft is willing to enable people to use 10 KHz of bandwidth
> for no good communication reason is beyond me. It would certainly
> make me think thrice about supporting a K4.
>
> And Joe didn't bring up the subject ... you and W2XJ did.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 3/2/2020 1:13 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> > smh … :-(
> >
> > Why did I know this would happen? Do we really have to keep beating
> this same tired horse? Really?
> >
> > Grant NQ5T
> >
> >> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> >>> A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
> >> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
> >> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
> >> service not an entertainment medium.
> >>
> >> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years ago,
> >> "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>

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Grant Youngman-2

Re: K4 on AM

Here we go. It just never ends.

I apologize to the list for asking what is apparently a stupid, ignorant, unschooled, and ham-immoral question. Clearly beyond the bounds of “good amateur practice”. FWIW, I have also been subjected to multiple private emails implying the same, for which I thave privately taken umbrage. THIS IS NOT NECESSARY — from anyone. It was just a question!

I will NEVER ask another question about AM or bandwidth on this list. I bow to your collective excellence. I raise my arm in the appropriate salute.

Folks, this is just beyond the pale :-( I asked one simple question. I got an answer from Elecraft, and I’m happy with that, Why not just STFU.

I hope Eric has the sanity to close this thread. I’m out … and will privately and hopefully await the performance of the K4 in this regard.

Grant NQ5T

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 5:28 PM, Charlie T <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think he "may" be confusing the high audio limit with the resulting 2X bandwidth.
>
> 6kHz transmit bandwidth is obviously NOT the result of 6 KHz audio.
>
> However, it is easy to get mixed up on this.
>
> Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Rose
> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2020 4:30 PM
> To: David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4 on AM
>
> Well said, Dave
>
> 73
>
> K0PP
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020, 14:23 David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well, when a minority few seem to think that they should be special
>> enough to use far more bandwidth than the rest of us do, then I'd say
>> the horse isn't dead yet. If everyone ran AM that wide that the bands
>> would sound horrible. If that isn't a good enough definition of
>> presumed entitlement I don't know what is.
>>
>> Why Elecraft is willing to enable people to use 10 KHz of bandwidth
>> for no good communication reason is beyond me. It would certainly
>> make me think thrice about supporting a K4.
>>
>> And Joe didn't bring up the subject ... you and W2XJ did.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/2/2020 1:13 PM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>>> smh … :-(
>>>
>>> Why did I know this would happen? Do we really have to keep beating
>> this same tired horse? Really?
>>>
>>> Grant NQ5T
>>>
>>>> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:06 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>>>>> A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
>>>> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
>>>> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
>>>> service not an entertainment medium.
>>>>
>>>> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years ago,
>>>> "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>>
>>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Why is it we are always prone to boost or add something?   Ever thought
of taking away something?   With most EQ systems, attenuation excessive
energy is much preferable to boosting anything.

So if ones audio is bassy or muddy, do we add high end or reduce low
end?   Hint: it is not adding high end.   Jim, K9YC, has written much
on this topic. If in doubt, always attenuate first.

If the glass is full of wine and one desires more wine, what's the
choice? Surely one can't add more wine or the glass will overflow.
Then the solution is to take a drink of wine, thus reduce the amount of
wine in the glass. Same for boosting in audio. The system has a point
where it is full and will overflow.   It won't get better, but it will
get worse.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 3/2/2020 2:10 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> When a user cranks up the low frequency audio EQ on those
> rigs and then uses high level of audio processing the
> unfiltered (as in after the DSP/IF filter) PA chain

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W2xj

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

i would beg to differ. Amateur radio is a hobby comprised of experimenters, home-brewers, DXers, contesters, ragchewers, CW enthusiasts and EM comms to name a few. Each group has their own technical needs.

Regarding AM in transceivers, it hasn’t been properly implemented for the last 50 years or more. It is a derivative based on SSB generation which introduces many shortcomings with the worst being steep skirted SSB filters.

I’ve worked professionally with AM broadcast transmitters since 1958 and watched them evolve over the decades as we perfected the science over that time. I’ve worked with LW and MW transmitters to 2 megawatts and shortwave to 500 kilowatts over the years and consulted on design with almost every major TX manufacturer.

One of the basics is that a transmitter should have an audio bandwidth 2 to 3 times the actual transmitted audio bandwidth. Bandwidth and peak control is then external to the TX. Lack of that capability is part of the reason some transceivers sound bad on AM. It is also the source of part of how some hold AM in low esteem due IM and other distortions in the linear amplification chain, again, due to a predominately SSB oriented design. There are a number of modified BC TXs mostly on 160 and 80 meters with audio bandwidths between 10 and 20 KHz and they dont have the same issues but they do have proper audio processing feeding them.

Back in the 1950s when AM still ruled the ham bands transmitters did not have the same issues as they were designed for AM and CW operation and did not have audio filtering even though there were more hams back then. Spectral distribution of speech have frequencies around 5 KHz20 to 30 db below speech fundamentals so the impact is not what many might think when the TX is otherwise clean.

Bottom line, AM in transceivers is a compromise that takes a back seat to SSB.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
> >
> > A maximum around 6 KHz would be better,
>
> Audio response greater than 3 KHz is *never* appropriate for
> amateur radio. Amateur radio is, after all, a communications
> service not an entertainment medium.
>
> As a certain FCC official said in a hamfest forum a few years
> ago, "if you want more than 3 KHz, get a *BROADCAST* license."
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2020-03-02 11:34 AM, Grant Youngman wrote:
>> An audio response of 4-5 KHz isn’t unreasonable. A maximum around 6 KHz would be better, and since it will be adjustable, the response (with relatively steep rolloff) can be tailored to be compatible with band conditions and occupancy as necessary.
>> I know this is a sensitive, if not plain explosive, topic in some circles — but most AM users do manage their bandwidth with common sense, and to be considerate of the rest of the community.
>> Grant NQ5T
>>>> On Mar 2, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Eric Swartz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> One note - Wayne is saying the K4 -audio- b/w in AM will be somewhere
>>> between 4 and 5 kHz. The actual DSB AM b/w that results will be between 8
>>> and 10 kHz.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Eric
>>> *elecraft.com <http://elecraft.com>*
>>>
>>>
>
>
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W2xj

Re: K4 on AM

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

There is an old rule that the product of the lowest and highest audio frequencies should be between 450,000 and 500,000 (depending on which ‘expert’ you ask). Under that rule, a 3 KHz audio response should have a low end response of 150 Hertz for a balanced sound.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 2, 2020, at 8:02 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Why is it we are always prone to boost or add something? Ever thought of taking away something? With most EQ systems, attenuation excessive energy is much preferable to boosting anything.
>
> So if ones audio is bassy or muddy, do we add high end or reduce low end? Hint: it is not adding high end. Jim, K9YC, has written much on this topic. If in doubt, always attenuate first.
>
> If the glass is full of wine and one desires more wine, what's the choice? Surely one can't add more wine or the glass will overflow. Then the solution is to take a drink of wine, thus reduce the amount of wine in the glass. Same for boosting in audio. The system has a point where it is full and will overflow. It won't get better, but it will get worse.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>> On 3/2/2020 2:10 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>> When a user cranks up the low frequency audio EQ on those
>> rigs and then uses high level of audio processing the
>> unfiltered (as in after the DSP/IF filter) PA chain
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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