K4?

[Tom-4]

Hi,
I agree the 7300 leaves a lot to be wanted for the touch screen.  It's not
the most intuitive.  I too had to look in the manual to figure out how to
change bands!
On the other hand, the IC-7610 is much more intuitive most likely due to
increased real-estate of the display.  The menus for example are very easy
to get used to.  The key point, is that the most used functions are buttons,
but the touch screen makes things like the menus very easy to use.
One of my pet peeves of the all in one radios is that the spectrum screens
are pretty poor in resolution.  I have yet to see any hardware panadapter
that has the display quality of the P3.
73 Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Dave New, N8SBE
Sent: March 25, 2019 4:21 PM
To: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4?

I agree.

The radios I've seen with touch screens are a real compromise in usability.
Either the screen is too small to be useful, or it is so big that many hard
controls are sacrificed to avoid making the front panel too large. The worst
are the PC-based interfaces, where all hard controls are eliminated.

The IC-7300 is a case in point. When I first encountered one, I gave up
trying to figure out how to change bands, and had to ask the owner. Of
course, you just touch the MHz digit on the display! Obvious, I suppose, in
retrospect.

The problem with touch displays is similar to 'hidden' mouse movements on
PCs. Unless you've read the manual or had someone show you, it is entirely
not obvious how to do cool things with the mouse.

How many folks know that on Windows 7/10 if you drag a window to the right
or left side of the screen, that it will magically re-size to fill just the
right-half or the left-half of the screen? Makes it super simple to place
two instances of the file explorer side-by-side to assist in doing drag 'n
drop operations between windows.
How many know that if you drag the winnow top edge (as in a resize
operation) to the top of the screen it will automatically fill the screen
top to bottom? And if you subsequently drag it off the top, the window will
snap back to its original size and position?
How many know that if you grab a window title bar, and shake the mouse, that
all other windows will minimize? And if you shake the window again, they all
come back?

I'd bet that at least some of you just learned something about your PC that
you didn't know before. There is a least another dozen cool things (like
using Ctl-Windows-right or -left arrow on Windows 10 to access multiple
desktops of windows).

So, how do you implement cool touch- or mouse-movements without leaving
novice users in the dust?

That's the $64,000 question.

73,



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[Elecraft mailing list]

 RE:  "What is most desirable when combining analog controls and digital
interfaces is the ability to assign functions to various switches and
buttons..."

EXCELLENT, Doug!!!  The best of both worlds!

In the aircraft world, both pilots have several multi-display screens, each with an array of hardware buttons arranged around them.  While their individual buttons may not be re-assignable, each display can be assigned to a specific function such as flight instruments, fuel system, weapons system, radar, etc.

In the case of a K4, that amount of real estate isn't available in a reasonable radio size, so the ability to assign functions to each button would be the next best thing.  User customizable hardware, beautiful color touch screen, flexibility for future expansion/changes, Elecraft ingenuity.

Mark
KE6BB

    On Monday, March 25, 2019, 1:19:08 PM PDT, Doug Person <[hidden email]> wrote:  
 
 What is most desirable when combining analog controls and digital
interfaces is the ability to assign functions to various switches and
buttons. These can be arranged around the screen so that the control
labels can be "soft" while the controls themselves are "hard". E.g., not
everyone uses squelch, or rarely change cw sending speed. Being able to
customize your control configuration would be very desirable. Different
modes, different functions assigned to controls. This way, the number of
controls are minimized while providing the best combination of hard
controls for a particular mode or operating environment.

Doug -- KJ0F

 
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[Doug Turnbull]

Wayne,
    Upgradeable, God I like Elecraft and might I add modular is also very
nice so that one can gradually grow the rig to meek pocketbook and needs.
              73 Doug EI2CN

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: 25 March 2019 16:56
To: Bert
Cc: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4?


> On Mar 25, 2019, at 9:10 AM, Bert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Touch screens are unavoidable!


The trick is to provide a full complement of "hard" controls for functions
accessed most frequently, "in the heat of battle," as they say, while
leveraging the touch screen for its versatility.

Touchable fields can be added as a backup/shortcut to hard controls. A touch
screen inherently offers immediate context-sensitive feedback and in many
cases reduced time/effort. Examples include signal selection, zooming, etc.
Zooming should also be done right, by resampling at narrower resolution --
is shouldn't just be a "blow-up" of the original pixels, as implemented on
some existing radios.

Ultimately, get what you pay for. That said, current prices for "high-end"
super-radios are ridiculous; they're two to four times higher than
necessary. Not only that, they're not configurable or upgradeable. Very
un-Elecraft like.

Wayne
N6KR



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[Bill Frantz]

I have a display area 8.5" by 5.25" HDMI etc. display from
Adafruit (about $160 or sl) which draws 403mA. I haven't tried
it on the P3 yet, but it might work if the P3 will support its resolution.

Any radio that has a screen should also support external
screens. Then people can configure their stations as space and
interest dictate.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/25/19 at 10:36 AM, [hidden email] (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

>Yes. 7" diagonal would provide the ideal tradeoff between
>screen size and the portion of the front panel dedicated to
>hard controls. The display should have much higher resolution
>than 800x480 (IC7610), IMHO.
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[Doug Person-5]

Reading the manual in order to learn how to use a complex radio
shouldn't be an obstacle.

I'm not familiar with "Hidden mouse moves" in Windows. There are 3
buttons and a scroll wheel. They each  have very well-defined functions.

Doug -- KJ0F

On 3/25/2019 3:21 PM, Dave New, N8SBE wrote:

> I agree.
>
> The radios I've seen with touch screens are a real compromise in
> usability. Either the screen is too small to be useful, or it is so big
> that many hard controls are sacrificed to avoid making the front panel
> too large. The worst are the PC-based interfaces, where all hard
> controls are eliminated.
>
> The IC-7300 is a case in point. When I first encountered one, I gave up
> trying to figure out how to change bands, and had to ask the owner. Of
> course, you just touch the MHz digit on the display! Obvious, I
> suppose, in retrospect.
>
> The problem with touch displays is similar to 'hidden' mouse movements
> on PCs. Unless you've read the manual or had someone show you, it is
> entirely not obvious how to do cool things with the mouse.
>
> How many folks know that on Windows 7/10 if you drag a window to the
> right or left side of the screen, that it will magically re-size to fill
> just the right-half or the left-half of the screen? Makes it super
> simple to place two instances of the file explorer side-by-side to
> assist in doing drag 'n drop operations between windows.
> How many know that if you drag the winnow top edge (as in a resize
> operation) to the top of the screen it will automatically fill the
> screen top to bottom? And if you subsequently drag it off the top, the
> window will snap back to its original size and position?
> How many know that if you grab a window title bar, and shake the mouse,
> that all other windows will minimize? And if you shake the window
> again, they all come back?
>
> I'd bet that at least some of you just learned something about your PC
> that you didn't know before. There is a least another dozen cool things
> (like using Ctl-Windows-right or -left arrow on Windows 10 to access
> multiple desktops of windows).
>
> So, how do you implement cool touch- or mouse-movements without leaving
> novice users in the dust?
>
> That's the $64,000 question.
>
> 73,
>
> -- Dave, N8SBE
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K4?
> From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
> Date: Mon, March 25, 2019 12:56 pm
> To: Bert <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
>
> The trick is to provide a full complement of "hard" controls for
> functions accessed most frequently, "in the heat of battle," as they
> say, while leveraging the touch screen for its versatility.
>
> Touchable fields can be added as a backup/shortcut to hard controls. A
> touch screen inherently offers immediate context-sensitive feedback and
> in many cases reduced time/effort. Examples include signal selection,
> zooming, etc. Zooming should also be done right, by resampling at
> narrower resolution -- is shouldn't just be a "blow-up" of the original
> pixels, as implemented on some existing radios.
>
> Ultimately, get what you pay for. That said, current prices for
> "high-end" super-radios are ridiculous; they're two to four times higher
> than necessary. Not only that, they're not configurable or upgradeable.
> Very un-Elecraft like.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
73 de Doug -- KJ0F

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[wayne burdick]

You don't always have a manual around, or internet access.

IMHO, a radio with a large LCD should have at least a subset of the owner's manual built-in, with topic search (via both a scrolling TOC and keyboard) as well as context-sensitive help (e.g., "touch any control for information on what it does") and one-level un-do. And there should be a dedicated control for accessing this feature. You shouldn't have to look in a menu for it. I'd label it simply (and iconically) '?'.

Wayne
N6KR



> On Mar 25, 2019, at 6:59 PM, Doug Person <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Reading the manual in order to learn how to use a complex radio shouldn't be an obstacle.
>
> I'm not familiar with "Hidden mouse moves" in Windows. There are 3 buttons and a scroll wheel. They each  have very well-defined functions.
>
> Doug -- KJ0F


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[wayne burdick]

> On Mar 25, 2019, at 6:10 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Any radio that has a screen should also support external screens. Then people can configure their stations as space and interest dictate.


Agreed. And if it were on my desk, I'd want it to be HDMI, supported by the widest range of available monitor types. I'd like to able to specify what's on that screen vs. what's on the LCD, and even assign the HDMI port to an in-box app.

Wayne
N6KR


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[Byron Servies]

I adore my Grey Line system, and still have a few XVs here to
complete.  I understand it is technically inferior to my K-Line, but I
enjoy it more. The K1's receiver, in particular, is delightful.  A K2S
would be tremendous, even if the instructions involved a toaster oven
(which I use often for SMD single sided boards). Baring that, I would
ask for other useful hands-on ham-radio kits that are not plug-in
boards.

When I first sold all of my Y-line appliances and built a K1/4 kit,
nothing prepared me for the instructional value of tuning an inductor
with a plastic probe! So valuable to me, I cannot even describe it.
Then, of course, I had to learn morse code to use it, which is another
story.

I fully understand that Elecraft needs to make commercial products
that are profitable enough to support the business. But a guy can
dream.  I'll buy two, I promise.

73, Byron N6NUL

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 8:29 AM Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Based on that thinking, it may be that Elecraft could produce an SMD
> version of the K2 in that price class - call it the "K2S".
> Yes, it would not be a full kit like the current K2, but would solve a
> lot of problems that are encountered with the disappearing of Thru-hole
> components from the marketplace.
>
> The current K2 design even though 20 years old still has a competitive
> receiver (see the Sherwood RX listing), and many hams appreciate the
> fully analog design - which could be ported to SMD with board layout
> design but not the basic analog circuitry.  Using black paint would
> differentiate it from the current gray K2.
>

- www.cqp.org
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