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KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

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Javier Campos-3

KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Looking for any feedback on the use of the KAT-500 with a 30' Flag Pole (Zero-Five) Antennas under 100 watts and if an Amp is used, that would be nice to get some feedback.

I've moved into an HOA zone and will be putting up a Zero-Five 30 foot flag pole and looking to get a tuner as I have an Acom-1011 Amp (want to switch to the KPA-500). The antenna will use a 4:1 UNUN.

Let me know how the KAT-500 and if you have the KPA-500 (or any amp for that matter) works with the flag pole etc.

I plan on being active on all bands 80-10

Thanks

Javier NM6E/5
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David Bunte

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Javier -

I have some thoughts on this matter, but not a LOT of answers. I see that
you got a response from someone telling you about their vertical (not like
yours), and the MFJ tuner (not the KAT500). What he said about putting the
tuner at the antenna makes a lot of sense, but I tried the MFJ at the base
of my 30' Zero Five, and it could not find a good match on all bands. It
did better, further away from the antenna, and I am sure that is because
the loss in the coax between the tuner and the antenna, changed the system
parameters enough that the tuner had a better chance of handling the
mismatch.

I actually tried a KAT500 with my Flag Pole. The tuner belonged to a
friend, and we were both curious to see how it would handle the Flag Pole.
As I recall, it did find a match on 80 through 10, but it seems to me that
it had a real hard time doing so on some bands. The native SWR on the
antenna is quite high on some bands, presenting a greater challenge. I do
not own an amp so I can't answer all your questions.

I may have mentioned that I am now using an older Palstar AT-AUTO, and it
works extremely well. It is not as fast as the Elecraft, but all I do is
press the XMIT button on the K3 and the tuner finds a match in a very
"reasonable" time, at about 10 watts. I do not have a lot of room on my
desk, and as I believe I mentioned, I placed the tuner closer to the
antenna than my shack. I have a 40' run of coax to the tuner, and then 30'
from the tuner to the un-un at the antenna. From the day it was installed,
it has been 100% RELIABLE when changing bands. I also borrowed a 500 watt
tuner from a friend, and the tuner handles that power very well. In fact,
I briefly tried a Ten-Tec Titan at 1000 watts, and at 1500 watts. On most
bands the tuner handled that power very well, but one 80 meters, the power
out and SWR jumped around a bit, making me believe that there was some
arcing in the un-un, the tuner, or the amp. If it had been in the amp, I
believe I would have heard it... I backed off the power at once. At 800
watts it was stable, but I was afraid to take it up higher again...
afterall the amp was not mine, and I did not want to replace the tuner or
the un-un.

When you get the antenna installation complete, I would recommend that you
carefully plot and record the SWR on all bands, without a tuner. Be sure
to use a "good" SWR bridge, watt meter, or antenna analyzer. Then look at
that information and you well get a good idea if the KAT500 will likely be
able to handle it. If your SWR curves are like mine, you may find that on
"some" bands the numbers fall outside of the indicated tuning range of the
KAT500. I did not try the KAT500 at the place in my coax that my Palstar
tuner is located... just on my desk by the K3.

When I get a KPA500, I will may borrow a KAT500 and try that combination.
At first I thought that not having INSTANT band change capability would be
a negative... but I am not into contests, just casual DX and lots of rag
chews. I do want more power than 100 watts, but I think I am going to
stick with this tuner. In fact, the friend who had the Titan amplifier has
two of the Palstar tuners. He has asked me to help sell one of them. If I
did not already own this one, I would buy his... HI.

I realize that I could not fully answer all your questions, but perhaps
this has been of some help.

Very 73 de Dave - K9FN

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:36 AM, Javier Campos <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
>
> Looking for any feedback on the use of the KAT-500 with a 30' Flag Pole
> (Zero-Five) Antennas under 100 watts and if an Amp is used, that would be
> nice to get some feedback.
>
> I've moved into an HOA zone and will be putting up a Zero-Five 30 foot
> flag pole and looking to get a tuner as I have an Acom-1011 Amp (want to
> switch to the KPA-500). The antenna will use a 4:1 UNUN.
>
> Let me know how the KAT-500 and if you have the KPA-500 (or any amp for
> that matter) works with the flag pole etc.
>
> I plan on being active on all bands 80-10
>
> Thanks
>
> Javier NM6E/5
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In reply to this post by Javier Campos-3

I have that flag pole and use the KAT500 to tune it. I've used several
other tuners in the past too, mostly old remote military models. Power
offers no issues... if the antenna tunes at 5 or 100 watts, it will tune at
500 watts.

One thing I always do (at least I've learned something important from this)
is to plot the Real and Imaginary part of the antenna as a function of
frequency...that the tuner will see (either remote at the antenna or in the
radio house). You can do that with a simple impedance bridge. Then I plot
the transfer function to 50 ohms real and overlay the transfer function
space of the tuner. That easily tells you where the tuner will have trouble
matching the antenna and where it (theoretically) will work just fine. This
will answer all of your questions. It may also tell you where you need work
on your antenna (e.g. If you plot the impedance of the antenna as you lay
radials, it will asymptotically approach a limiting value with infinite
radials. When you don't see it move, more radials probably isn't worth the
extra work).

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch
Staunton, Illinois

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Javier Campos
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 11:36 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Looking for any feedback on the use of the KAT-500 with a 30' Flag Pole
(Zero-Five) Antennas under 100 watts and if an Amp is used, that would be
nice to get some feedback.

I've moved into an HOA zone and will be putting up a Zero-Five 30 foot flag
pole and looking to get a tuner as I have an Acom-1011 Amp (want to switch
to the KPA-500). The antenna will use a 4:1 UNUN.

Let me know how the KAT-500 and if you have the KPA-500 (or any amp for that
matter) works with the flag pole etc.

I plan on being active on all bands 80-10

Thanks

Javier NM6E/5
______________________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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John Fritze

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In reply to this post by Javier Campos-3

Javier,

Here's some additional info for you to my first post.

A lot of great info can be found here regarding the antenna design you are
considering:

http://www.sgcworld.com/technicalInfoPage.html

If the tuner is at the radio and the output from the tuner is coax (such as
a built in tuner in the K3) the tuner is tuning the coax and not the
antenna. It will make the rig happy and isn't that what we mostly are
looking for anyway? But the main problem is how do we get the most
transfer of power between the coax and the antenna?

A schematic circuit of any antenna is a resister, inductor and capacitor in
series. By adjusting the capacitance or the inductance we can try to
arrive at 50 Ohms to match to coax. That's what a remote tuner is trying
to do by adding capacitors and coils into the circuit. Once the match is
found, then the rig output, coax, and antenna are all 50 ohms giving us the
maximum transfer of power so it is not burnt up as heat in the coax.

A remote tuner tunes the antenna and the coax is effectively flat SWR from
the rig to the tuner. One problem I have found is that coax should NEVER
be used at the output of a remote tuner (BUT we all do it don't we, even I
do on occasion)! From the remote tuner to the antenna it is all antenna
and it is all radiating. West Marine sells a product called high voltage
wire, it is 10 or 12 gauge, stranded and tinned, covered with a white PVC.
It is not cheap but it is a really good product. Sometimes a remote tuner
will tune with a short coax at the output, but it won't be happy and you
will find that the tuner will hunt for a solution.

One other issue folks sometimes have is trying to tune the vertical when it
is too short for the tuner. Ideally you need to be 42-43 feet to work
80-10 meters. If you want to sometimes get on 160, then you need to be
closer to 55 feet at a minimum, but then you are compromised at 10-6
meters. Not because the antenna won't tune the longer vertical but because
angle of take off is too high. If you try to tune an antenna which is too
short, the voltages at the relays can be very high, causing arching and
burning of relay contacts. One way around this is to tune at a very low
output, then raise power once the relays have set where they need to be.
Be careful to not vary too far in frequency however! Another solution is
to add in inductance by jumpering in a coil when you want to work the lower
bands. There are numerous articles in QST about getting a 42 foot vertical
onto 160 meters.

Remember: a properly grounded vertical antenna is only about 25-30 ohms.
So right off the bat you have a 2:1 mismatch. I also do not use an UNUN or
balun of any type and have not had any issues. Again, you need a VERY GOOD
GROUND.

I know for the real antenna gurus out there everything I have stated is
kind of simplistic and there are tons of variables and best solutions per
application. I am just giving you 30 years of real world experience.

--
John Fritze Jr
K2QY
AARA president 2013
ACACES secretary 2013
Albany County RACES Radio Officer
ARES ENY DEC Northern District
Hudson Div. Asst. Director
Twitter: @k2qy
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Javier Campos-3

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Thanks to all for the replies. Excellent points and real life experiences have provided some valuable insight.

The antenna should be her in about a week or so.

I will use my MFJ antenna analyzer (I hope it still works) after I get it standing up and eventually (need to let the "look" set in of just the aluminum) for the neighbors before I attach the UNUN and the radials.

After all, it's a "Flag Pole" to my HOA so I just need to let it sit there and let the novelty wear off before I attach UNUN, lay the radials and dig the trench for the coax.

It will also give me time to freshen on on plotting the R+jx on the smith charts, again after 24+ years from doing in it in college.

Thanks again and you will all here from me once this is all installed and put together and on the air.

Javier NM6E/5

________________________________
From: John Fritze <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Javier,

Here's some additional info for you to my first post.

A lot of great info can be found here regarding the antenna design you are
considering:

http://www.sgcworld.com/technicalInfoPage.html

If the tuner is at the radio and the output from the tuner is coax (such as
a built in tuner in the K3) the tuner is tuning the coax and not the
antenna. It will make the rig happy and isn't that what we mostly are
looking for anyway? But the main problem is how do we get the most
transfer of power between the coax and the antenna?

A schematic circuit of any antenna is a resister, inductor and capacitor in
series. By adjusting the capacitance or the inductance we can try to
arrive at 50 Ohms to match to coax. That's what a remote tuner is trying
to do by adding capacitors and coils into the circuit. Once the match is
found, then the rig output, coax, and antenna are all 50 ohms giving us the
maximum transfer of power so it is not burnt up as heat in the coax.

A remote tuner tunes the antenna and the coax is effectively flat SWR from
the rig to the tuner. One problem I have found is that coax should NEVER
be used at the output of a remote tuner (BUT we all do it don't we, even I
do on occasion)! From the remote tuner to the antenna it is all antenna
and it is all radiating. West Marine sells a product called high voltage
wire, it is 10 or 12 gauge, stranded and tinned, covered with a white PVC.
It is not cheap but it is a really good product. Sometimes a remote tuner
will tune with a short coax at the output, but it won't be happy and you
will find that the tuner will hunt for a solution.

One other issue folks sometimes have is trying to tune the vertical when it
is too short for the tuner. Ideally you need to be 42-43 feet to work
80-10 meters. If you want to sometimes get on 160, then you need to be
closer to 55 feet at a minimum, but then you are compromised at 10-6
meters. Not because the antenna won't tune the longer vertical but because
angle of take off is too high. If you try to tune an antenna which is too
short, the voltages at the relays can be very high, causing arching and
burning of relay contacts. One way around this is to tune at a very low
output, then raise power once the relays have set where they need to be.
Be careful to not vary too far in frequency however! Another solution is
to add in inductance by jumpering in a coil when you want to work the lower
bands. There are numerous articles in QST about getting a 42 foot vertical
onto 160 meters.

Remember: a properly grounded vertical antenna is only about 25-30 ohms.
So right off the bat you have a 2:1 mismatch. I also do not use an UNUN or
balun of any type and have not had any issues. Again, you need a VERY GOOD
GROUND.

I know for the real antenna gurus out there everything I have stated is
kind of simplistic and there are tons of variables and best solutions per
application. I am just giving you 30 years of real world experience.

--
John Fritze Jr
K2QY
AARA president 2013
ACACES secretary 2013
Albany County RACES Radio Officer
ARES ENY DEC Northern District
Hudson Div. Asst. Director
Twitter: @k2qy
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jim AB3CV

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

John

When working through your setup consider getting some 7/8" hardline to use
as feed which depending on your run length to the antenna may allow you to
keep the KAT500 in the shack with acceptable loss. You'll still need some
coax jumpers to get from the hardline to the rig inside the house so you'll
need to calculate and add that loss along with the little bit at the
antenna.

Any of the online loss calculators will give you the answers. Use 10:1 as
the max SWR estimate at the antenna to calculate the feedline loss since
the KAT500 can't tune more than that anyway.

Here's some examples: @10:1, LDF5-50, 3.5Mhz, 100ft yields a total loss of
0.32db. Same for 28Mhz yields 0.86db.

http://www.arrg.us/pages/Loss-Calc.htm

Such hardline is readily available at much less than new prices if you buy
used. I paid a bit over $1/ft for mine if you're luck you might even find
it free. Connectors are pricey but since you only need two, no big deal.

The tradeoff is having the tuner in the shack where is it visible and
usable without concerns for weather vs temperature and humidity issues
outside.

73

jim ab3cv

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Javier Campos <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Thanks to all for the replies. Excellent points and real life experiences
> have provided some valuable insight.
>
> The antenna should be her in about a week or so.
>
> I will use my MFJ antenna analyzer (I hope it still works) after I get it
> standing up and eventually (need to let the "look" set in of just the
> aluminum) for the neighbors before I attach the UNUN and the radials.
>
> After all, it's a "Flag Pole" to my HOA so I just need to let it sit there
> and let the novelty wear off before I attach UNUN, lay the radials and dig
> the trench for the coax.
>
> It will also give me time to freshen on on plotting the R+jx on the smith
> charts, again after 24+ years from doing in it in college.
>
> Thanks again and you will all here from me once this is all installed and
> put together and on the air.
>
> Javier NM6E/5
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: John Fritze <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?
>
>
> Javier,
>
> Here's some additional info for you to my first post.
>
> A lot of great info can be found here regarding the antenna design you are
> considering:
>
> http://www.sgcworld.com/technicalInfoPage.html
>
> If the tuner is at the radio and the output from the tuner is coax (such as
> a built in tuner in the K3) the tuner is tuning the coax and not the
> antenna. It will make the rig happy and isn't that what we mostly are
> looking for anyway? But the main problem is how do we get the most
> transfer of power between the coax and the antenna?
>
> A schematic circuit of any antenna is a resister, inductor and capacitor in
> series. By adjusting the capacitance or the inductance we can try to
> arrive at 50 Ohms to match to coax. That's what a remote tuner is trying
> to do by adding capacitors and coils into the circuit. Once the match is
> found, then the rig output, coax, and antenna are all 50 ohms giving us the
> maximum transfer of power so it is not burnt up as heat in the coax.
>
> A remote tuner tunes the antenna and the coax is effectively flat SWR from
> the rig to the tuner. One problem I have found is that coax should NEVER
> be used at the output of a remote tuner (BUT we all do it don't we, even I
> do on occasion)! From the remote tuner to the antenna it is all antenna
> and it is all radiating. West Marine sells a product called high voltage
> wire, it is 10 or 12 gauge, stranded and tinned, covered with a white PVC.
> It is not cheap but it is a really good product. Sometimes a remote tuner
> will tune with a short coax at the output, but it won't be happy and you
> will find that the tuner will hunt for a solution.
>
> One other issue folks sometimes have is trying to tune the vertical when it
> is too short for the tuner. Ideally you need to be 42-43 feet to work
> 80-10 meters. If you want to sometimes get on 160, then you need to be
> closer to 55 feet at a minimum, but then you are compromised at 10-6
> meters. Not because the antenna won't tune the longer vertical but because
> angle of take off is too high. If you try to tune an antenna which is too
> short, the voltages at the relays can be very high, causing arching and
> burning of relay contacts. One way around this is to tune at a very low
> output, then raise power once the relays have set where they need to be.
> Be careful to not vary too far in frequency however! Another solution is
> to add in inductance by jumpering in a coil when you want to work the lower
> bands. There are numerous articles in QST about getting a 42 foot vertical
> onto 160 meters.
>
> Remember: a properly grounded vertical antenna is only about 25-30 ohms.
> So right off the bat you have a 2:1 mismatch. I also do not use an UNUN or
> balun of any type and have not had any issues. Again, you need a VERY GOOD
> GROUND.
>
> I know for the real antenna gurus out there everything I have stated is
> kind of simplistic and there are tons of variables and best solutions per
> application. I am just giving you 30 years of real world experience.
>
>
> --
> John Fritze Jr
> K2QY
> AARA president 2013
> ACACES secretary 2013
> Albany County RACES Radio Officer
> ARES ENY DEC Northern District
> Hudson Div. Asst. Director
> Twitter: @k2qy
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

I have a different opinion on buying used heliax. Unless you scan it (TDR
minimum) you will never know if what you are purchasing is a piece of good
used heliax... or something hit by lightning now has carbon track shorts
and/or dielectric that is saturated with water. While some lucky people
have purchased used heliax with success, I would use the same common sense
as when purchasing any used coax.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch
Staunton, Illinois

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:51 PM
Cc: [hidden email]; John Fritze
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

John

When working through your setup consider getting some 7/8" hardline to use
as feed which depending on your run length to the antenna may allow you to
keep the KAT500 in the shack with acceptable loss. You'll still need some
coax jumpers to get from the hardline to the rig inside the house so you'll
need to calculate and add that loss along with the little bit at the
antenna.

Any of the online loss calculators will give you the answers. Use 10:1 as
the max SWR estimate at the antenna to calculate the feedline loss since
the KAT500 can't tune more than that anyway.

Here's some examples: @10:1, LDF5-50, 3.5Mhz, 100ft yields a total loss of
0.32db. Same for 28Mhz yields 0.86db.

http://www.arrg.us/pages/Loss-Calc.htm

Such hardline is readily available at much less than new prices if you buy
used. I paid a bit over $1/ft for mine if you're luck you might even find
it free. Connectors are pricey but since you only need two, no big deal.

The tradeoff is having the tuner in the shack where is it visible and
usable without concerns for weather vs temperature and humidity issues
outside.

73

jim ab3cv

On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Javier Campos
<[hidden email]>wrote:

as
> a built in tuner in the K3) the tuner is tuning the coax and not the
> antenna. It will make the rig happy and isn't that what we mostly are
> looking for anyway? But the main problem is how do we get the most
> transfer of power between the coax and the antenna?
>
> A schematic circuit of any antenna is a resister, inductor and capacitor
in
> series. By adjusting the capacitance or the inductance we can try to
> arrive at 50 Ohms to match to coax. That's what a remote tuner is trying
> to do by adding capacitors and coils into the circuit. Once the match is
> found, then the rig output, coax, and antenna are all 50 ohms giving us
the

> maximum transfer of power so it is not burnt up as heat in the coax.
>
> A remote tuner tunes the antenna and the coax is effectively flat SWR from
> the rig to the tuner. One problem I have found is that coax should NEVER
> be used at the output of a remote tuner (BUT we all do it don't we, even I
> do on occasion)! From the remote tuner to the antenna it is all antenna
> and it is all radiating. West Marine sells a product called high voltage
> wire, it is 10 or 12 gauge, stranded and tinned, covered with a white PVC.
> It is not cheap but it is a really good product. Sometimes a remote tuner
> will tune with a short coax at the output, but it won't be happy and you
> will find that the tuner will hunt for a solution.
>
> One other issue folks sometimes have is trying to tune the vertical when

it
> is too short for the tuner. Ideally you need to be 42-43 feet to work
> 80-10 meters. If you want to sometimes get on 160, then you need to be
> closer to 55 feet at a minimum, but then you are compromised at 10-6
> meters. Not because the antenna won't tune the longer vertical but
because
> angle of take off is too high. If you try to tune an antenna which is too
> short, the voltages at the relays can be very high, causing arching and
> burning of relay contacts. One way around this is to tune at a very low
> output, then raise power once the relays have set where they need to be.
> Be careful to not vary too far in frequency however! Another solution is
> to add in inductance by jumpering in a coil when you want to work the
lower
> bands. There are numerous articles in QST about getting a 42 foot
vertical
> onto 160 meters.
>
> Remember: a properly grounded vertical antenna is only about 25-30 ohms.
> So right off the bat you have a 2:1 mismatch. I also do not use an UNUN or
> balun of any type and have not had any issues. Again, you need a VERY
GOOD

> GROUND.
>
> I know for the real antenna gurus out there everything I have stated is
> kind of simplistic and there are tons of variables and best solutions per
> application. I am just giving you 30 years of real world experience.
>
>
> --
> John Fritze Jr
> K2QY
> AARA president 2013
> ACACES secretary 2013
> Albany County RACES Radio Officer
> ARES ENY DEC Northern District
> Hudson Div. Asst. Director
> Twitter: @k2qy
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Jim AB3CV

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In my case I did find water in the sections of LDF5-50 that were
unprotected but with an ohm meter and a hacksaw was able to remove the
affected portions resulting in a >10M ohm reading after removing just a
couple of feet. The nature of the foam inside LDF5-50 doesn't permit water
to travel quickly very far.

I'm successfully running my KPA500 on all bands.

No idea about carbon tracking.

YMMV

jim ab3cv

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 3:11 AM, Dr. William J. Schmidt, II <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a different opinion on buying used heliax. Unless you scan it (TDR
> minimum) you will never know if what you are purchasing is a piece of good
> used heliax... or something hit by lightning now has carbon track shorts
> and/or dielectric that is saturated with water. While some lucky people
> have purchased used heliax with success, I would use the same common sense
> as when purchasing any used coax.
>
>
> Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ
>
> Owner - Operator
> Big Signal Ranch
> Staunton, Illinois
>
> email: [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Miller
> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 7:51 PM
> Cc: [hidden email]; John Fritze
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?
>
> John
>
> When working through your setup consider getting some 7/8" hardline to use
> as feed which depending on your run length to the antenna may allow you to
> keep the KAT500 in the shack with acceptable loss. You'll still need some
> coax jumpers to get from the hardline to the rig inside the house so you'll
> need to calculate and add that loss along with the little bit at the
> antenna.
>
> Any of the online loss calculators will give you the answers. Use 10:1 as
> the max SWR estimate at the antenna to calculate the feedline loss since
> the KAT500 can't tune more than that anyway.
>
> Here's some examples: @10:1, LDF5-50, 3.5Mhz, 100ft yields a total loss of
> 0.32db. Same for 28Mhz yields 0.86db.
>
> http://www.arrg.us/pages/Loss-Calc.htm
>
> Such hardline is readily available at much less than new prices if you buy
> used. I paid a bit over $1/ft for mine if you're luck you might even find
> it free. Connectors are pricey but since you only need two, no big deal.
>
> The tradeoff is having the tuner in the shack where is it visible and
> usable without concerns for weather vs temperature and humidity issues
> outside.
>
> 73
>
> jim ab3cv
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Javier Campos
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> > Thanks to all for the replies. Excellent points and real life experiences
> > have provided some valuable insight.
> >
> > The antenna should be her in about a week or so.
> >
> > I will use my MFJ antenna analyzer (I hope it still works) after I get it
> > standing up and eventually (need to let the "look" set in of just the
> > aluminum) for the neighbors before I attach the UNUN and the radials.
> >
> > After all, it's a "Flag Pole" to my HOA so I just need to let it sit
> there
> > and let the novelty wear off before I attach UNUN, lay the radials and
> dig
> > the trench for the coax.
> >
> > It will also give me time to freshen on on plotting the R+jx on the smith
> > charts, again after 24+ years from doing in it in college.
> >
> > Thanks again and you will all here from me once this is all installed and
> > put together and on the air.
> >
> > Javier NM6E/5
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: John Fritze <[hidden email]>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 2:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?
> >
> >
> > Javier,
> >
> > Here's some additional info for you to my first post.
> >
> > A lot of great info can be found here regarding the antenna design you
> are
> > considering:
> >
> > http://www.sgcworld.com/technicalInfoPage.html
> >
> > If the tuner is at the radio and the output from the tuner is coax (such
> as
> > a built in tuner in the K3) the tuner is tuning the coax and not the
> > antenna. It will make the rig happy and isn't that what we mostly are
> > looking for anyway? But the main problem is how do we get the most
> > transfer of power between the coax and the antenna?
> >
> > A schematic circuit of any antenna is a resister, inductor and capacitor
> in
> > series. By adjusting the capacitance or the inductance we can try to
> > arrive at 50 Ohms to match to coax. That's what a remote tuner is trying
> > to do by adding capacitors and coils into the circuit. Once the match is
> > found, then the rig output, coax, and antenna are all 50 ohms giving us
> the
> > maximum transfer of power so it is not burnt up as heat in the coax.
> >
> > A remote tuner tunes the antenna and the coax is effectively flat SWR
> from
> > the rig to the tuner. One problem I have found is that coax should NEVER
> > be used at the output of a remote tuner (BUT we all do it don't we, even
> I
> > do on occasion)! From the remote tuner to the antenna it is all antenna
> > and it is all radiating. West Marine sells a product called high voltage
> > wire, it is 10 or 12 gauge, stranded and tinned, covered with a white
> PVC.
> > It is not cheap but it is a really good product. Sometimes a remote
> tuner
> > will tune with a short coax at the output, but it won't be happy and you
> > will find that the tuner will hunt for a solution.
> >
> > One other issue folks sometimes have is trying to tune the vertical when
> it
> > is too short for the tuner. Ideally you need to be 42-43 feet to work
> > 80-10 meters. If you want to sometimes get on 160, then you need to be
> > closer to 55 feet at a minimum, but then you are compromised at 10-6
> > meters. Not because the antenna won't tune the longer vertical but
> because
> > angle of take off is too high. If you try to tune an antenna which is too
> > short, the voltages at the relays can be very high, causing arching and
> > burning of relay contacts. One way around this is to tune at a very low
> > output, then raise power once the relays have set where they need to be.
> > Be careful to not vary too far in frequency however! Another solution is
> > to add in inductance by jumpering in a coil when you want to work the
> lower
> > bands. There are numerous articles in QST about getting a 42 foot
> vertical
> > onto 160 meters.
> >
> > Remember: a properly grounded vertical antenna is only about 25-30 ohms.
> > So right off the bat you have a 2:1 mismatch. I also do not use an UNUN
> or
> > balun of any type and have not had any issues. Again, you need a VERY
> GOOD
> > GROUND.
> >
> > I know for the real antenna gurus out there everything I have stated is
> > kind of simplistic and there are tons of variables and best solutions per
> > application. I am just giving you 30 years of real world experience.
> >
> >
> > --
> > John Fritze Jr
> > K2QY
> > AARA president 2013
> > ACACES secretary 2013
> > Albany County RACES Radio Officer
> > ARES ENY DEC Northern District
> > Hudson Div. Asst. Director
> > Twitter: @k2qy
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

Edward R Cole

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In reply to this post by Javier Campos-3

Kind of OT, but:

One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just
using the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to
vertical antenna.

I use such as my HV jumper from the base coil of my 500-KHz
inverted-L to the "top" of the coil (10-inch diameter 11-inch long
wound with solid 12ga. copper wire):
http://www.kl7uw.com/Coil005_1.jpg

I don't use a tuner at the base coil, at present. I tap the "bottom"
of the coil 2-1/2 turns up and connect that to my RG-213 cable. The
bottom of the coil is tied to a ground post and four very wide but
short radials (1/4 WL = 930-feet so both antenna and radials are
"short - very short"). The vertical section consists of three
parallel wires 43-foot high, spaced a foot apart, and the top hat is
two parallel wires 122 foot long spaced 2-feet. Z = 0.81 -
j681.5. Efficiency is 0.8 %. 100w RF output results in ERP = 4.15w.

Some day I will attempt use of the antenna on 80 & 160m.

Oh the radials are novel: 50 to 70-foot long 2-foot wide chicken
wire fencing laid on top of the lawn.
for more info on what we are doing on the 630m band:
http://www.kl7uw.com/600m.htm

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
[hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW"

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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Mark Bayern

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

> One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just using
> the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> antenna.

... but once you remove the shield, you no longer have a coaxial
cable, you have an insulated piece of wire. A wire is appropriate for
the short run involved in tuning an inductor.

Come to think about it, at 600 meters, most any jumper could be
considered electrically short. hi hi

Mark AD5SS

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kind of OT, but:
>
> One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just using
> the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> antenna.
>
> I use such as my HV jumper from the base coil of my 500-KHz inverted-L to
> the "top" of the coil (10-inch diameter 11-inch long wound with solid 12ga.
> copper wire):
> http://www.kl7uw.com/Coil005_1.jpg
>
> I don't use a tuner at the base coil, at present. I tap the "bottom" of the
> coil 2-1/2 turns up and connect that to my RG-213 cable. The bottom of the
> coil is tied to a ground post and four very wide but short radials (1/4 WL =
> 930-feet so both antenna and radials are "short - very short"). The
> vertical section consists of three parallel wires 43-foot high, spaced a
> foot apart, and the top hat is two parallel wires 122 foot long spaced
> 2-feet. Z = 0.81 - j681.5. Efficiency is 0.8 %. 100w RF output results in
> ERP = 4.15w.
>
> Some day I will attempt use of the antenna on 80 & 160m.
>
> Oh the radials are novel: 50 to 70-foot long 2-foot wide chicken wire
> fencing laid on top of the lawn.
> for more info on what we are doing on the 630m band:
> http://www.kl7uw.com/600m.htm
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
> http://www.kl7uw.com
> [hidden email]
> "Kits made by KL7UW"

Stephen Selberg

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Greetings,

I was thinking of picking up one of these antennas as well. The only problem is my shack is approximately 10 feet from the only place where I could put a flag pole antenna. If I’m running barefoot, will this antenna be too close to the shack and start causing me problems? I lack much knowledge in the area of antennas and antenna theory. Any insight would be appreciated.

73,

Steve KS6PD

From: Mark Bayern
Sent: ‎July‎ ‎29‎, ‎2013 ‎2‎:‎21‎ ‎PM
To: Edward R Cole
CC: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

> One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just using
> the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> antenna.

... but once you remove the shield, you no longer have a coaxial
cable, you have an insulated piece of wire. A wire is appropriate for
the short run involved in tuning an inductor.

Come to think about it, at 600 meters, most any jumper could be
considered electrically short. hi hi

Mark AD5SS

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Jim Brown-10

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

On 8/7/2013 11:10 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I was thinking of picking up one of these antennas as well. The only problem is my shack is approximately 10 feet from the only place where I could put a flag pole antenna. If I’m running barefoot, will this antenna be too close to the shack and start causing me problems?

It depends on whether equipment in your shack has "Pin One Problems."
Sadly, most equipment does, so you may end up using lots of ferrite
chokes to kill RF feedback and the noise generated by equipment in your
shack, and replacing switching power supplies with linear ones to kill
the noise that they generate.

To understand these issues, study http://k9yc.com/RFI-Ham.pdf and to
learn how antennas work, study the chapters in the ARRL Handbook on
Antennas and Transmission Lines.

73, Jim K9YC

______________________________________________________________
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Bayard Coolidge, N1HO

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In reply to this post by Stephen Selberg

I'm running with a 16ft 1/4wave on 20m vertical with a 40 ft wire running horizontally from its
tip northward to a branch on a nearby tree as an "Inverted-L". The vertical is about 22 feet SW
of the operating position, and the wire is about 11 feet horizontally, at its closest
point (W) of the operating position. There are at least two radials/counterpoise wires for each band.

I can run my K3 on all bands (80-6) at 100W output, tuning the antenna with the internal tuner
through 50 feet of RG8X, with no problems. I have 147 DXCC entities worked with this antenna
configuration, although some were with the rig I used before I got the K3.

I strongly recommend the obvious, that you pay close attention to lightning protection.

73,

Bayard R. "Brandy" Coolidge, N1HO
______________________________________________________________
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Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

In reply to this post by Stephen Selberg

Why don't you try it first with a piece of wire where the vertical would be. You can run it up the center of plastic conduit or support it with a horizontal rope. Pretty cheap way to test things out.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch
Staunton, Illinois

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 1:10 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Greetings,

I was thinking of picking up one of these antennas as well. The only problem is my shack is approximately 10 feet from the only place where I could put a flag pole antenna. If I’m running barefoot, will this antenna be too close to the shack and start causing me problems? I lack much knowledge in the area of antennas and antenna theory. Any insight would be appreciated.

73,

Steve KS6PD

From: Mark Bayern
Sent: ‎July‎ ‎29‎, ‎2013 ‎2‎:‎21‎ ‎PM
To: Edward R Cole
CC: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

> One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just using
> the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> antenna.

... but once you remove the shield, you no longer have a coaxial
cable, you have an insulated piece of wire. A wire is appropriate for
the short run involved in tuning an inductor.

Come to think about it, at 600 meters, most any jumper could be
considered electrically short. hi hi

Mark AD5SS

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

______________________________________________________________
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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Stephen Selberg

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Greetings,

I actually have one of those mighty fine junk 17 foot telescoping whips as
one of my few traveling antennas for the kx3. I think this weekend ill set
it up where the flag pole would go and give it a ride! I'll fire up the 590
(one day to be replaced by a K3) and see what happens. Don't know why I
didn't think of that before (duh) other than lack of sleep, kids, work,
soccer tournaments, theme parks etc. I'm sure some know what I'm talking
about.

I'll post my results to the thread if anyone cares to hear my findings.
Sorry Elecraft if we've gone too far OT with this. Just to keep it Elecraft
related, Tom at zero five antennas said the KAT500 would suit the antenna
just fine.

73,

Steve KS6PD

On Wednesday, August 7, 2013, Dr. William J. Schmidt, II wrote:

> Why don't you try it first with a piece of wire where the vertical would
> be. You can run it up the center of plastic conduit or support it with a
> horizontal rope. Pretty cheap way to test things out.
>
>
> Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ / J68HZ/ 8P6HK/ ZF2HZ/ PJ4HZ
>
> Owner - Operator
> Big Signal Ranch
> Staunton, Illinois
>
> email: [hidden email] <javascript:;>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 1:10 PM
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?
>
> Greetings,
>
>
>
> I was thinking of picking up one of these antennas as well. The only
> problem is my shack is approximately 10 feet from the only place where I
> could put a flag pole antenna. If I’m running barefoot, will this antenna
> be too close to the shack and start causing me problems? I lack much
> knowledge in the area of antennas and antenna theory. Any insight would be
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> 73,
>
>
>
> Steve KS6PD
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Mark Bayern
> Sent: July 29, 2013 2:21 PM
> To: Edward R Cole
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?
>
>
> > One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just
> using
> > the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> > antenna.
>
> ... but once you remove the shield, you no longer have a coaxial
> cable, you have an insulated piece of wire. A wire is appropriate for
> the short run involved in tuning an inductor.
>
> Come to think about it, at 600 meters, most any jumper could be
> considered electrically short. hi hi
>
> Mark AD5SS
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Edward R Cole <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Kind of OT, but:
> >
> > One can use RG-8 coax with shield and outside covering removed (just
> using
> > the center wire and internal insulation to connect a tuner to vertical
> > antenna.
> >
> > I use such as my HV jumper from the base coil of my 500-KHz inverted-L to
> > the "top" of the coil (10-inch diameter 11-inch long wound with solid
> 12ga.
> > copper wire):
> > http://www.kl7uw.com/Coil005_1.jpg
> >
> > I don't use a tuner at the base coil, at present. I tap the "bottom" of
> the
> > coil 2-1/2 turns up and connect that to my RG-213 cable. The bottom of
> the
> > coil is tied to a ground post and four very wide but short radials (1/4
> WL =
> > 930-feet so both antenna and radials are "short - very short"). The
> > vertical section consists of three parallel wires 43-foot high, spaced a
> > foot apart, and the top hat is two parallel wires 122 foot long spaced
> > 2-feet. Z = 0.81 - j681.5. Efficiency is 0.8 %. 100w RF output
> results in
> > ERP = 4.15w.
> >
> > Some day I will attempt use of the antenna on 80 & 160m.
> >
> > Oh the radials are novel: 50 to 70-foot long 2-foot wide chicken wire
> > fencing laid on top of the lawn.
> > for more info on what we are doing on the 630m band:
> > http://www.kl7uw.com/600m.htm
> >
> > 73, Ed - KL7UW
> > http://www.kl7uw.com
> > [hidden email]
> > "Kits made by KL7UW"
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: <http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm>

KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: ﻿KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?

Re: KAT-500 and 30' Flag Pole Antenna Users?