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KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

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Robby.VY2SS

KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

Can someone tell me how to make the automatic antenna tuner tune automatically?

Mine only acts as a memory tuner and I have to push the ATU Tune button to make it tune.

-Robby
VY2SS

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

Robby,

It all depends on how you define "Automatic".

The K3 ATU remembers the settings for 2 antennas in each band segment.
It will automatically switch to those settings as you tune from band to
band or through any one band.

If your expectation is that the K3 ATU tuner will automatically re-tune
when it finds an SWR higher than some specified amount, then none of the
Elecraft tuners will do that. You must initially tap the ATU TUNE so
the proper tuner settings for that antenna and band segment can be found.

I for one prefer it the way it is rather than the tuner deciding when it
needs to re-tune. I have one radio with an internal that decides it
must re-tune as I tune through a band. It drives me nuts since I have
to wait for it to re-tune before moving on. Fortunately, I can turn it
off in that radio and I have not used it in years.

73,
Don W3FPR

Robby.VY2SS wrote:

> Can someone tell me how to make the automatic antenna tuner tune
> automatically?
>
> Mine only acts as a memory tuner and I have to push the ATU Tune button to
> make it tune.
>
> -Robby
> VY2SS
>
>

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Robby.VY2SS

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

Thanks for the fast reply Don.

Actually, I did expect it to automatically retune when it finds an SWR higher than some specified amount. That is how every internal tuner I have every used worked. Thats how my backup radio works and its a good thing I have it as I have had quite a bit of down time waiting for new KAT3 boards. Elecraft support is very good about sending them out but it takes 2 weeks to get to me.

Unfortunately, although I suspected something was amiss, it was not until recently that I discovered it was not really automatic (by my definition). I agree that a normal person might have keyed in on it sooner.

Since 99% of my operating is in contests, I am not used to spending a lot of time pondering various settings on my rig before each transmission. The more "set and forget" the better I like it.

The problem with automatic selection of memorized settings is it stops being useful when you change to an antenna that has different charactaristics. Or you turn on an amplifier that presents a different load than your antenna. In these cases your memory settings are all working against you.

If I always used the same set of antennas and always did or did not use an amplifier I would not be having these problems. At least now I know that to be safe I need to press that button before every transmission after an antenna or power level change. I have a hard time accepting that as automatic but it may well depend on an individual's definition of the word.

I would prefer to have my tuner ensure that my finals are not seeing a high SWR.

(K4... and K8.. please do not flame me. You know who you are.)

73,

-Robby
VY2SS

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

Robby,

Since the KAT3 can be configured with one antenna port in bypass and the
other for normal tuning, why not put the amp on ANT2. That should make
things easier when switching between barefoot and the amp.

I know that does not solve the problem of switching antennas on ANT1.

BTW, the K3 does protect itself by reducing power if a high SWR is detected.

73,
Don W3FPR

Robby.VY2SS wrote:

> The problem with automatic selection of memorized settings is it stops being
> useful when you change to an antenna that has different charactaristics. Or
> you turn on an amplifier that presents a different load than your antenna.
> In these cases your memory settings are all working against you.
>
> If I always used the same set of antennas and always did or did not use an
> amplifier I would not be having these problems. At least now I know that to
> be safe I need to press that button before every transmission after an
> antenna or power level change. I have a hard time accepting that as
> automatic but it may well depend on an individual's definition of the word.
>
> I would prefer to have my tuner ensure that my finals are not seeing a high
> SWR.
>
>

MontyS

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

I have a K3 and Ameritron ALS-600 amp running 600 watts. I have 3 antennas
in use, a dipole, hexagonal beam, and 6 meter beam. The dipole requires
tuning, the hexagonal beam needs tuning on 10 meters only. Both the dipole
and hexagonal beam are connected to an external tuner, where I switch
between them, and also switch the tuner in or out - one switch with 4
positions does this. The tuner is connected to the amp, and the amp to ANT1
on the K3. The 6 meter beam is connected to ANT2 on the K3.
*If I want to use the K3 barefoot with the KAT3, I put the amp and external
tuner in bypass and select the antenna at the tuner.
*If I want to run the amp, I put the KAT3 in bypass and select the antenna
at the tuner, either tuned or straight through. The ALS-600 input requires
no tuning.

The KAT3's memory is retained by this procedure.

If I forget a step, I get a high SWR warning from the K3 or amp, slap my
forehead, and proceed. Both are protected from my goofs.
Hope this is useful info!

Monty K2DLJ

Robby.VY2SS

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,

That sounds like a useful suggestion. At least it did unitil I thought about it a while.

Connecting the input of the amp to port 2 is easy but what do I do with the output. Antenna port 1 is already connected to my antenna switchs. What do I do with the output from the amp? I could maybe connect both ports 1 and 2 to the amp input and the amp output to the switch since only one at a time is active but what happens when the port in use is sending 100W back into the unused port? That scares me a little.

Elecraft support have kindly sent me a KANT board so the other solution would be a third party 1KW external tuner. I am not in love with this idea.

-Robby

Guy, K2AV

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I'd have to agree with Don on this one. Fully automatic (auto-auto)
would drive me up a wall. There would have to be a semi-automatic
mode, something done to keep the radio from tuning, except when I
wanted it to.

For those who want the business of tuning low power into a relatively
low SWR into an amp versus tuning to a high SWR taken care of
automatically in a K3, I would submit that the box that really needs
the change is the AMP, NOT the K3. Why shouldn't amps with auto
tuners on the output make that available in the bypass? Then one
autotuner serves both purposes transparently.

If one has an amp without an autotuner, what's the fuss? One has to
manually change the high power tuner with QSY anyway (have to remember
to move one's hands and tune) and dropping the K3 tuner from the
string to drive the amp is A SINGLE BUTTON PUSH when you kick in the
amp. In my case I do them both at the same time with both hands. It's
a habit.

Kicking the amp in or out is manual. Why should this issue get dumped
on anybody's brand of transciever?

As to the ideal that other rigs doing something is why a K3 should do
it, there is a long list of things in common from YaeComwood that I'm
happy to be without. Just because it was done in a Japanese box
wouldn't buy a cup of coffee around here. It's on a case by case
basis. Start with key clicks and front ends that go mush in the night.

Part of the consideration on what to do in an equipment design has to
do with what the public has already accepted in a line of products (K3
continues on the K2 tuner). But more than that at some point
additional features become prohibitive and time/expense has to be
contained. IF auto-auto could be done in firmware, the problem as
always in the software industry is 200 hours of ideas for 40 hours of
programmer time. And seemingly nobody that hasn't done hardware
control coding themselves understands how difficult and pernicious
that kind of code is.

Again, if Wayne could do auto-auto-tuning, there'd have to be an
option to turn it off, which I would do. There would also be the issue
of setting the SWR threshold. Some would want it to kick in at 1.2:1.
Others would set it to 5 watts of fold-back.

No flame intended here, but I'm not with you on this one.

73, Guy

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Robby,
>
> Since the KAT3 can be configured with one antenna port in bypass and the
> other for normal tuning, why not put the amp on ANT2. That should make
> things easier when switching between barefoot and the amp.
>
> I know that does not solve the problem of switching antennas on ANT1.
>
> BTW, the K3 does protect itself by reducing power if a high SWR is detected.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Robby.VY2SS wrote:
>> The problem with automatic selection of memorized settings is it stops being
>> useful when you change to an antenna that has different charactaristics. Or
>> you turn on an amplifier that presents a different load than your antenna.
>> In these cases your memory settings are all working against you.
>>
>> If I always used the same set of antennas and always did or did not use an
>> amplifier I would not be having these problems. At least now I know that to
>> be safe I need to press that button before every transmission after an
>> antenna or power level change. I have a hard time accepting that as
>> automatic but it may well depend on an individual's definition of the word.
>>
>> I would prefer to have my tuner ensure that my finals are not seeing a high
>> SWR.
>>
>>
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Robby.VY2SS

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

In reply to this post by MontyS

Hi Monty,

That sounds like a lot to remember but you obviously can. I also have my 6M antenna on port 2 also but it does not have to be that way. I can monitor 6M with anther rig.

I have purchased and assembled the Elecraft KRC2 band decoder and use it with a 10 port remote switch. The switch is not all that remote. It'is here in the shack but it is a great setup because I never have to worry about transmitting into the wrong antenna. Most radio manufacturers provide band data on the back of the rig in some form or other so this can be accomplished. For me it is a huge benefit. As a matter of fact it works so well I stopped thinking about antennas a whole lot during a contest. Most of my antennas do not require a tuner in the CW part of the band where I usually reside but I use it anyway just so I don't have to worry about what part of the band I am in. This all good as long as I stay on low power and don't manually switch in a special antenna such as NVIS or a loop.

I have to think about putting the NVIS antenna on port 2. I need to be able to transmit on this antenna on more than one band. That will solve a portion of my problem.

-Robby

Phil Salas

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

In reply to this post by Robby.VY2SS

"That sounds like a useful suggestion. At least it did unitil I thought
about it a while.

Connecting the input of the amp to port 2 is easy but what do I do with the
output. Antenna port 1 is already connected to my antenna switchs. What do I
do with the output from the amp? I could maybe connect both ports 1 and 2 to
the amp input and the amp output to the switch since only one at a time is
active but what happens when the port in use is sending 100W back into the
unused port? That scares me a little."

I use a MFJ-4726 6x6 switch. My K3 A antenna output connects directly to
one of the MFJ-4726 inputs. My K3 B antenna output goes to my ALS-600
amplifier, my MFJ-998 autotuner, and a separate MFJ-4726 input. So I use
the MFJ-4726 to select between barefoot or amplifier inputs, and direct the
output to one of three antennas or a dummy load.

Phil - AD5X

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Robby.VY2SS

RE: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

Phil,

I googled that device and it looks like I have the wrong switch. Not only does yours look to be more versatile but costs much less. I will definitely be studying up on this. Thanks.

-Robby

From: Phil & Debbie Salas [via Elecraft] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:56 PM
To: Robby.VY2SS
Subject: Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

View message @ http://n2.nabble.com/KAT3-Automatic-Antenna-Tuner-tp4790259p4791909.html
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abellve3xm@bell.net

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

In reply to this post by Robby.VY2SS

Robby,

I fail to understand your reasoning for your complaints regarding use of the
K3's antenna tuner.
One press of the ATU TUNE button tunes the antenna in use all across the
band one is using.
The KAT3 is the best tuner I've ever used.
Same applies to the tuner in my Ten-Tec Omni Vll.
Quit complaining!

73, Bob VE3XM
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Brett Howard

Re: KAT3 Automatic Antenna Tuner

That depends heavily on the Q of your antenna. Many high Q antennas
are NOT calibrated across the band with a single press of the button.
However you can use K3_EZ to have it automatically set all of the
memory locations and that is usually pretty good. However also some
antennas (especially some of those with really high Q) can change with
humidity and/or how wet the trees its in are.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:47 PM, abell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Robby,
>
> I fail to understand your reasoning for your complaints regarding use of the
> K3's antenna tuner.
> One press of the ATU TUNE button tunes the antenna in use all across the
> band one is using.
> The KAT3 is the best tuner I've ever used.
> Same applies to the tuner in my Ten-Tec Omni Vll.
> Quit complaining!
>
> 73, Bob VE3XM
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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