KAT500 Anomalies
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I've been using the KPA/KAT500 Combo for a bit over a year, and while there
have been a couple issues with the KPA, the KAT has been fine for all this time. I operate various digital modes frequently (i.e.: FT8, JS8, Winlink, etc.) so I often return to the same frequency on each band. Today, running 50 watts in Winlink VARA HF mode, it had problems staying matched on 80 meters. It would try to rematch on each transmit cycle. As a result, the cycles were incomplete and data transfer was erratic. My question is, how many memory settings can it hold in memory, per band? My antenna is fed with ladder line (yes, I have a balun, etc and it's been fine for well over a year). It's possible that the system will tune slightly different now and then due to the ladderline blowing around (in contact with tree leaves, let's say). Am I using up so many memory slots after this time that it is running out of space? Thinking that might be a possibility, I reloaded a config from about 6 months back which would not have seen as many frequencies used. I have also experimented with the MTA commands. At this point, it seems stable. I've always been a bit confused by the "Teach it in Auto Mode, but Operate in Manual Mode" suggestion I've heard from time to time. As received, the "Memory Recall Tune on QSY" defaults to ON for both modes. I'd appreciate any insight from KAT users. 73 Lyn, W0LEN ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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The short answer is you 'teach' the tuner on each 'bin' frequency what
the settings are for a good match (with each antenna, each on it's own antenna port). Then you put the tuner into manual mode; which still adjusts the matching values as the frequency changes BUT disables the retune feature. You DO need to pay attention to SWR, that should be second nature anyway. Every time you 'teach' a value into the bin (one per antenna port), it overwrites the previous value(s) so no, you won't run out of memory. One thing I would do is check the tuner component values from your baseline (dry, sunny day) to the current values, it's possible that something is changing on the antenna more than usual (ladder/window line DOES change a little when wet or windy and near other 'things'). If the changes are small, you'll be fine. Any major shift in values (or SWR) should be evaluated for cause (broken wire opens when windy?). I suggest that you limit the amount of feedline movement, if possible (I tied mine with a cord, to the fence, then it ran to the shack, slightly tensioned just enough to compensate for tree movement, not free sway). That reduces the seasonal affects. You could also compare un-tuned SWR to see if there is a radical change, but SWR is not the entire story of the load (it's a composite measurement). Of course, make sure that your matching device (balun has variable meanings making that name, useless) has tight, clean weather resistant connections and isn't bothered by weather or seasonal debris (leaves). I came across similar changes when I used a 375' center fed dipole (80M EDZ) at only 35' (oaks didn't grow much taller), window line fed into a 4:1 common mode choke transformer and a SHORT piece of coax into the shack. It worked well on all bands, I managed over 200 countries despite the local noises (noise floor ~-80 dBm). Now I use a resonant antenna (80-6M plus one on 160M) which is MUCH simpler (but expensive) with a noise floor typically in the -120 dBm range (ah, quiet! I moved away from the noise). 73, Rick NK7I On 11/23/2020 12:52 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote: > I've been using the KPA/KAT500 Combo for a bit over a year, and while there > have been a couple issues with the KPA, the KAT has been fine for all this > time. I operate various digital modes frequently (i.e.: FT8, JS8, Winlink, > etc.) so I often return to the same frequency on each band. > > > > Today, running 50 watts in Winlink VARA HF mode, it had problems staying > matched on 80 meters. It would try to rematch on each transmit cycle. > > > > As a result, the cycles were incomplete and data transfer was erratic. > > > > My question is, how many memory settings can it hold in memory, per band? > My antenna is fed with ladder line (yes, I have a balun, etc and it's been > fine for well over a year). It's possible that the system will tune > slightly different now and then due to the ladderline blowing around (in > contact with tree leaves, let's say). Am I using up so many memory slots > after this time that it is running out of space? > > > > Thinking that might be a possibility, I reloaded a config from about 6 > months back which would not have seen as many frequencies used. I have also > experimented with the MTA commands. At this point, it seems stable. > > > > I've always been a bit confused by the "Teach it in Auto Mode, but Operate > in Manual Mode" suggestion I've heard from time to time. As received, the > "Memory Recall Tune on QSY" defaults to ON for both modes. > > > > I'd appreciate any insight from KAT users. > > > > 73 > > Lyn, W0LEN > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Thanks, Rick. I try to pay attention to all those points, and really haven't seen this behavior until today.
I still find the distinction between Auto and Manual modes a little fuzzy. Are you doing the "teaching" in Auto mode, but saying that operating should be in Manual mode ... like I think you're saying? Do you change the default setup, which has both boxes checked for QSY re-tuning? And then this: " Then you put the tuner into manual mode; which still adjusts the matching values as the frequency changes BUT disables the retune feature. " How does it adjust the matching values without retuning? Are we saying just tiny little baby-step fine tuning? Or am I getting caught up in semantics? 73 Lyn, W0LEN -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rick Bates, NK7I Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 3:33 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT500 Anomalies The short answer is you 'teach' the tuner on each 'bin' frequency what the settings are for a good match (with each antenna, each on it's own antenna port). Then you put the tuner into manual mode; which still adjusts the matching values as the frequency changes BUT disables the retune feature. You DO need to pay attention to SWR, that should be second nature anyway. Every time you 'teach' a value into the bin (one per antenna port), it overwrites the previous value(s) so no, you won't run out of memory. One thing I would do is check the tuner component values from your baseline (dry, sunny day) to the current values, it's possible that something is changing on the antenna more than usual (ladder/window line DOES change a little when wet or windy and near other 'things'). If the changes are small, you'll be fine. Any major shift in values (or SWR) should be evaluated for cause (broken wire opens when windy?). I suggest that you limit the amount of feedline movement, if possible (I tied mine with a cord, to the fence, then it ran to the shack, slightly tensioned just enough to compensate for tree movement, not free sway). That reduces the seasonal affects. You could also compare un-tuned SWR to see if there is a radical change, but SWR is not the entire story of the load (it's a composite measurement). Of course, make sure that your matching device (balun has variable meanings making that name, useless) has tight, clean weather resistant connections and isn't bothered by weather or seasonal debris (leaves). I came across similar changes when I used a 375' center fed dipole (80M EDZ) at only 35' (oaks didn't grow much taller), window line fed into a 4:1 common mode choke transformer and a SHORT piece of coax into the shack. It worked well on all bands, I managed over 200 countries despite the local noises (noise floor ~-80 dBm). Now I use a resonant antenna (80-6M plus one on 160M) which is MUCH simpler (but expensive) with a noise floor typically in the -120 dBm range (ah, quiet! I moved away from the noise). 73, Rick NK7I On 11/23/2020 12:52 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote: > I've been using the KPA/KAT500 Combo for a bit over a year, and while there > have been a couple issues with the KPA, the KAT has been fine for all this > time. I operate various digital modes frequently (i.e.: FT8, JS8, Winlink, > etc.) so I often return to the same frequency on each band. > > > > Today, running 50 watts in Winlink VARA HF mode, it had problems staying > matched on 80 meters. It would try to rematch on each transmit cycle. > > > > As a result, the cycles were incomplete and data transfer was erratic. > > > > My question is, how many memory settings can it hold in memory, per band? > My antenna is fed with ladder line (yes, I have a balun, etc and it's been > fine for well over a year). It's possible that the system will tune > slightly different now and then due to the ladderline blowing around (in > contact with tree leaves, let's say). Am I using up so many memory slots > after this time that it is running out of space? > > > > Thinking that might be a possibility, I reloaded a config from about 6 > months back which would not have seen as many frequencies used. I have also > experimented with the MTA commands. At this point, it seems stable. > > > > I've always been a bit confused by the "Teach it in Auto Mode, but Operate > in Manual Mode" suggestion I've heard from time to time. As received, the > "Memory Recall Tune on QSY" defaults to ON for both modes. > > > > I'd appreciate any insight from KAT users. > > > > 73 > > Lyn, W0LEN > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Lyn WØLEN
"Every time you 'teach' a value into the bin (one per antenna port), it overwrites the previous value(s) so no, you won't run out of memory."
Right, the memory allocation - 6 solutions per bin - doesn't change but these 6 solutions could be for any of the 3 antenna ports. There is not a bin allocation for each antenna port. If you tune ANT 2 6 times and get 6 new solutions then any solutions you had stored for ANT 1 and ANT 3 are gone. There is currently no way to reserve any of the 6 memory locations for a specific antenna or to "lock" a solution that you don't want to be pushed off the stack. The KAT500 is a capable tuner but it can take a while to learn how to manage it effectively. 73, Andy. k3wyc ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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"How does it adjust the matching values without retuning? "
I believe the distinction is between selecting a solution that already exists in one of the bin's 6 memory locations or deriving a new solution by executing an autotune sequence. 73, Andy, k3wyc ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Lyn WØLEN
Lyn,
I think you are 'getting caught up in the semantics' - let me try a brief explanation. Once the tuner knows the proper L/C combination for each frequency bin, it will switch to those settings in MAN mode. It will NOT try to autotune. If you switch to a different antenna on that particular antenna port, you will have to 'teach' the tuner again, which means going back into AUTO mode and transmitting in each bin's frequency so it learns what the L/C combinations are for each bin. Once that has been done, switch to MAN mode and operate. If you are using a remote antenna switch, things get complicated, but if you have only 3 antennas, it is easy. 73, Don W3FPR On 11/23/2020 5:34 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote: > Thanks, Rick. I try to pay attention to all those points, and really haven't seen this behavior until today. > > I still find the distinction between Auto and Manual modes a little fuzzy. Are you doing the "teaching" in Auto mode, but saying that operating should be in Manual mode ... like I think you're saying? Do you change the default setup, which has both boxes checked for QSY re-tuning? > > And then this: > > " Then you put the tuner into manual mode; which still adjusts the matching values as the frequency changes BUT disables the retune feature." > > How does it adjust the matching values without retuning? Are we saying just tiny little baby-step fine tuning? Or am I getting caught up in semantics? > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN
"Once the tuner knows the proper L/C combination for each frequency bin, it will switch to those settings in MAN mode. It will NOT try to autotune. If you switch to a different antenna on that particular antenna port, you will have to 'teach' the tuner again, which means going back into AUTO mode and transmitting in each bin's frequency so it learns what the L/C combinations are for each bin. Once that has been done, switch to MAN mode and operate."
Your explanation seems to assume there is only one solution per bin. That's not accurate. There are up to 6 solutions per bin and each of those 6 solutions includes the antenna port descriptor. There would be no need to autotune on selecting a different antenna if a solution for that antenna port was stored in the bin and gave a satisfactory match. 73, Andy, k3wyc ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Lyn WØLEN
If you have listened to the VARA signal, you know it consists of a series of tone frequencies sent in sequence. That could very well be driving the KAT500 nuts in AUTO mode. Training and then MANUAL is the solution. GL!
73, Brian, K0DTJ > On Nov 23, 2020, at 12:53, Lyn Norstad <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Today, running 50 watts in Winlink VARA HF mode, it had problems staying > matched on 80 meters. It would try to rematch on each transmit cycle. > > > > As a result, the cycles were incomplete and data transfer was erratic. > > > > My question is, how many memory settings can it hold in memory, per band? > My antenna is fed with ladder line (yes, I have a balun, etc and it's been > fine for well over a year). It's possible that the system will tune > slightly different now and then due to the ladderline blowing around (in > contact with tree leaves, let's say). Am I using up so many memory slots > after this time that it is running out of space? > > > > Thinking that might be a possibility, I reloaded a config from about 6 > months back which would not have seen as many frequencies used. I have also > experimented with the MTA commands. At this point, it seems stable. > > > > I've always been a bit confused by the "Teach it in Auto Mode, but Operate > in Manual Mode" suggestion I've heard from time to time. As received, the > "Memory Recall Tune on QSY" defaults to ON for both modes. > > > > I'd appreciate any insight from KAT users. > > > > 73 > > Lyn, W0LEN > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm
Don -
Thanks for that. Rick had some good ideas as well. It just dawned on me that part of my confusion came about as a result of using the KAT500 Utility from day 1. If I was just working from the front panel, the whole distinction between Automatic and Manual would have made more sense. But with the Utility and the separate Memorize button, that distinction is lost. At least for me. :) 73 Lyn, W0LEN -----Original Message----- From: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 5:24 PM To: [hidden email]; 'Rick Bates, NK7I'; [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT500 Anomalies Lyn, I think you are 'getting caught up in the semantics' - let me try a brief explanation. Once the tuner knows the proper L/C combination for each frequency bin, it will switch to those settings in MAN mode. It will NOT try to autotune. If you switch to a different antenna on that particular antenna port, you will have to 'teach' the tuner again, which means going back into AUTO mode and transmitting in each bin's frequency so it learns what the L/C combinations are for each bin. Once that has been done, switch to MAN mode and operate. If you are using a remote antenna switch, things get complicated, but if you have only 3 antennas, it is easy. 73, Don W3FPR On 11/23/2020 5:34 PM, Lyn Norstad wrote: > Thanks, Rick. I try to pay attention to all those points, and really haven't seen this behavior until today. > > I still find the distinction between Auto and Manual modes a little fuzzy. Are you doing the "teaching" in Auto mode, but saying that operating should be in Manual mode ... like I think you're saying? Do you change the default setup, which has both boxes checked for QSY re-tuning? > > And then this: > > " Then you put the tuner into manual mode; which still adjusts the matching values as the frequency changes BUT disables the retune feature." > > How does it adjust the matching values without retuning? Are we saying just tiny little baby-step fine tuning? Or am I getting caught up in semantics? > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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