[KAT500 and OT] Is a tuner using VNA feasible ?

[ab2tc]

Hi,

I wish I had better drawing skills - a picture is worth more than a 1000 words. The utility would communicate  with the KAT500 as it does now plus an additional connection to the K3 - either directly or through LP-Bridge. Changes would be required to the utility and the KAT500 firmware, none to LP-Bridge. But the question is if it's worth doing to save that one little squirt of RF needed to tell the tuner the exact frequency.

AB2TC - Knut

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote

LP-Bridge alone will not help.  While K3 Utility can obtain the
frequency information through LP-Bridge, that information would only be
sent out the same serial port back to the K3 - nothing gained. Remember
that the KAT500 uses a different serial connection than does the K3, so
that data would have to be sent to the KAT500 via a different serial
port (not connected to the K3).

73,
Don W3FPR
<snip>

[wayne burdick]

ab2tc wrote:

> ...the question is if it's worth doing to save that one little
> squirt of RF needed to tell the tuner the exact frequency.


At present the KAT500 works exactly the same as the KAT3:

(1) On any band change or antenna change, the last-used LC settings  
for that band and antenna are immediately recalled.

(2) Every time you transmit, the VFO frequency is determined (using RF  
sensing in the case of the KAT500). This is then converted to a  
segment number within the present band. The segment number is used to  
look up LC settings from the current segment or from the closest one  
for which LC settings are available. If the LC settings need to be  
changed, this is accomplished very quickly -- typically in 5 to 10 ms.

When we first wrote the KAT3 firmware, we tried having LC settings  
recalled as you tune, in receive mode. This was extremely distracting.  
It would be even more so with the KAT500 since it has much larger  
relays.

So what we're talking about now is whether it would be worth sending  
frequency data from the K3 to the KAT500--at the time of keying--over  
either the auxBus or the RS232 port. The answer, IMHO, is no. In  
either case it would take approximately the same amount of time to  
send the data as it would for the KAT500 to do RF sensing of the VFO  
frequency.

If someone has a better idea or would like to explain their operating  
scenario further, I'm all ears.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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[ab2tc]

Wayne wrote:

"So what we're talking about now is whether it would be worth sending  
frequency data from the K3 to the KAT500--at the time of keying--over  
either the auxBus or the RS232 port. The answer, IMHO, is no. In  
either case it would take approximately the same amount of time to  
send the data as it would for the KAT500 to do RF sensing of the VFO  
frequency. "

Well, if at at key time the KAT500 already knew the new frequency it could update the relays immediately without measuring the frequency. If this takes 5-10ms, the normal keytime to RF output time delay should prevent hot switching of the relays. What this means in practice is that operators could go right ahead with full power.

AB2TC - Knut

[KV5J]

During a contest and for many ops with headphones on you wouldn't hear the relays.  Make it an option.

As for the timing if the KAT500 tunes as the receiver is tuned timing is zero.

73,

Keith, XE3/K5ENS

[wayne burdick]

Keith-K5ENS wrote:

> During a contest and for many ops with headphones on you wouldn't  
> hear the
> relays.  Make it an option.

It's a possibility. I'll look into it.

Wayne

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 12/24/2012 10:58 AM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
> The K3 can be polled for this data.  Many loggers are doing it

Yes, but that is via the RS232 port, not the Aux Bus.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Jim Brown-10]

Another point.  Elecraft designed the KAT500 so that can be used with
almost any rig and almost any good power amp.  Part of that design is
determining the operating frequency by sensing RF and counting the
frequency.  Why is this important?  Because it increases (potentially by
a lot) the number of customers, which in turn builds sales volume, which
in turn keeps the price down.  Thank you, Eric, for another very smart
marketing move.

73, Jim K9YC
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[KV5J]

We're talking adding features for the K line. Not removing any.

Keith, XE3/K5ENS







Another point.  Elecraft designed the KAT500 so that can be used with
almost any rig and almost any good power amp.  Part of that design is
determining the operating frequency by sensing RF and counting the
frequency.  Why is this important?  Because it increases (potentially by
a lot) the number of customers, which in turn builds sales volume, which
in turn keeps the price down.  Thank you, Eric, for another very smart
marketing move.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________

[Jim Brown-10]

On 12/25/2012 7:06 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
> We're talking adding features for the K line. Not removing any.

You're missing something. The limitation is the hardware design of the
K3, and there's nothing the KAT designer could have done about that (or
could do now).  We are stuck with that.  IMO, the KAT500 implementation
is awfully close to ideal based on those limitations.

73, Jim K9YC

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[John Shaw]

 Guys I tried to make my post as non combative as possible and I said I am
no EE so I certainly am not capable of arguing technical pros-cons of what
can or can't be done.  Not wanting to throw gasoline on this but every idea
I put forward I have to confess was not entirely my own but observations of
how another high power amplifier/tuner on the market works and yes it can
fall back to using a sniff of RF to maintain diverse compatibility if
frequency data cannot be provided.

My questions were purely inquisitive and didn't want to upset anyone
sensitivities. Clearly the K line equipment is the best on the market and
cannot be improved. ;-)

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year, see you in the pileups 2013.

73 John ZL1BYZ.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Wednesday, 26 December 2012 17:02
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT500 a good tuner or great tuner

On 12/25/2012 7:06 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
> We're talking adding features for the K line. Not removing any.

You're missing something. The limitation is the hardware design of the K3,
and there's nothing the KAT designer could have done about that (or could do
now).  We are stuck with that.  IMO, the KAT500 implementation is awfully
close to ideal based on those limitations.

73, Jim K9YC

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[Igor Sokolov-2]

Expert 1K-FA can eavesdrop on the connection between the PC and K3 and
change setting of Expert's antenna tuner depending on frequency prior to TX.
Microham keyers can also " listen"  to responses of K3 being polled by
logging program. When no polling from logger occurs, Microham starts polling
the radio itself.
I agree with Keith, KAT500 could have been smarter and change setting prior
to TX.
Actually Expert also measures the frequency and compare it with data
received from CAT. Nothing happens if both coincide. If not - measured
frequency has priority. Very clever.

73, Igor UA9CDC

> On 12/25/2012 7:06 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
>> We're talking adding features for the K line. Not removing any.
>
> You're missing something. The limitation is the hardware design of the K3,
> and there's nothing the KAT designer could have done about that (or could
> do now).  We are stuck with that.  IMO, the KAT500 implementation is
> awfully close to ideal based on those limitations.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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[John Shaw]

Yes Igor that's the one I knew could be done.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Igor Sokolov
Sent: Thursday, 27 December 2012 01:48
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KAT500 a good tuner or great tuner

Expert 1K-FA can eavesdrop on the connection between the PC and K3 and
change setting of Expert's antenna tuner depending on frequency prior to TX.
Microham keyers can also " listen"  to responses of K3 being polled by
logging program. When no polling from logger occurs, Microham starts polling
the radio itself.
I agree with Keith, KAT500 could have been smarter and change setting prior
to TX.
Actually Expert also measures the frequency and compare it with data
received from CAT. Nothing happens if both coincide. If not - measured
frequency has priority. Very clever.

73, Igor UA9CDC

> On 12/25/2012 7:06 PM, Keith-K5ENS wrote:
>> We're talking adding features for the K line. Not removing any.
>
> You're missing something. The limitation is the hardware design of the
> K3, and there's nothing the KAT designer could have done about that
> (or could do now).  We are stuck with that.  IMO, the KAT500
> implementation is awfully close to ideal based on those limitations.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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