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KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

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N4ZR

KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

I have two 40M antennas, a Carolina Windom and a full-wave parasitic
sloper. I have just noticed that on any given frequency, my K3 must
deliver considerably more power on one than the other, in order for the
amp to produce 1500 watts. The difference is 27 watts on one vs 42
watts on the other. Is this normal?

--

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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N4ZR

Re: KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

Thanks to everyone who replied, either directly or on the list. I'm
sorry, but I forgot to mention one key fact - I was running the amp's
ATU with both of these antennas. Assuming that the amp's power output
measurement is done at the input of the ATU and not the output, and that
the ATU settings for the two antennas ( ATU rRetune SWR and ATU Stop Tun
SWR ) are identical, this really does look to me like a difference in
amplifier gain rather than measurement error.

The antennas are clearly a lot different - in fact the Windom will often
throw a Reflected Power fault when I first switch to it - but it seems
to me that after the ATU they should look the same.

73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

On 10/23/2019 9:55 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:

> Pete:
>
> The fact it requires more drive with one antenna as opposed to another
> says the two antennas do not have the same impedance. This is not at
> all unusual. Power measurements, with the methods used in ham radio
> applications, are based on voltage measurements with the impedance
> presumed to be 50 ohms.   Ohms law says P = E²/R thus any change in R
> {impedance} will cause a change in Power indicated or measured at a
> given point.
>
> A second factor is SWR which is an indication of the relative
> impedance between the source {amp} and the load {antenna}. In this
> case, as example, a 1.5:1 SWR can be 75 ohms or it can be 33 ohms.
> SWR and Power meters are calibrated for 50 ohms and are based on
> voltage on the feed line. Again we see that the impedance or the R
> part being different will affect the Power. In order to deliver the
> same power into a 33 ohm load, the amp is required to deliver more
> current and thus more drive is required.
>
> From an RF measurement at a given point with different impedance's we
> find:
>
> 1500 watts into 75 ohms is 335 volts with a current of 4.47 amps
>
> 1500 watts into 50 ohms is 273 volts with a current of 5.47 amps
>
> 1500 watts into 33 ohms is 222 volts with a current of 6.74 amps
>
> From the above one can see the amp is required to deliver more current
> into a lower impedance and to do so will require more drive power. And
> from the above, one can see the voltage on the feed line is different
> with different loads. In this regard, in as much as we measure power
> as a voltage with a known resistance the power measurements can be in
> error. Our power indicating devices are calibrated for 50 ohms.
> Any deviation from 50 ohms will thus cause an error in power indication.
>
> A third component of SWR and Power measurements would be Common Mode
> Current on the feed line. This is usually current induced on the
> outside of the feed line from the power radiated from the antenna.
> This common mode current is not measured by our power indicating
> instruments.   As a side note, Windom antennas are noted to exhibit
> high Common Mode Current conditions. The solution for CMC is to have
> a good Common Mode Choke at the feed point of the antenna, where the
> feed line connects, and also at the station end.
>
> Jim, K9YC, has and excellent paper on the topic:
> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
>
> Also, Rick, DJ0IP has a lot of valid information on his site:
>
> http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/
>
> http://www.dj0ip.de/rf-cmc-chokes/
>
> Now after all of this is said and done, I'd say your results with your
> KPA1500 are normal.   Hence the reason for the variation in drive is
> due to the load impedance presented to the amp and the power
> measurement method.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2019 6:59 AM, N4ZR wrote:
>> I have two 40M antennas, a Carolina Windom and a full-wave parasitic
>> sloper. I have just noticed that on any given frequency, my K3 must
>> deliver considerably more power on one than the other, in order for
>> the amp to produce 1500 watts. The difference is 27 watts on one vs
>> 42 watts on the other. Is this normal?
>>
>
>
>

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Jim Rhodes-3

Re: KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

Actually the fact that you were using the internal tuner doesn't change the
chance that with the settings on the auto tuner don't tell you which
direction the tuning of a certain antenna approach unity from. So there
could be twice the variation allowed between the 2 antennas. So if one is
coming from high impedance and stops at say 1.2:1 and the other is coming
from low and stops at 1.2:1 then there is still a considerable difference
between them. Putting an analyser on them to see the starting point the
tuner is working on could explain a lot.

Jim Rhodes
K0XU

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 11:17 N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks to everyone who replied, either directly or on the list. I'm
> sorry, but I forgot to mention one key fact - I was running the amp's
> ATU with both of these antennas. Assuming that the amp's power output
> measurement is done at the input of the ATU and not the output, and that
> the ATU settings for the two antennas ( ATU rRetune SWR and ATU Stop Tun
> SWR ) are identical, this really does look to me like a difference in
> amplifier gain rather than measurement error.
>
> The antennas are clearly a lot different - in fact the Windom will often
> throw a Reflected Power fault when I first switch to it - but it seems
> to me that after the ATU they should look the same.
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> On 10/23/2019 9:55 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
> > Pete:
> >
> > The fact it requires more drive with one antenna as opposed to another
> > says the two antennas do not have the same impedance. This is not at
> > all unusual. Power measurements, with the methods used in ham radio
> > applications, are based on voltage measurements with the impedance
> > presumed to be 50 ohms. Ohms law says P = E²/R thus any change in R
> > {impedance} will cause a change in Power indicated or measured at a
> > given point.
> >
> > A second factor is SWR which is an indication of the relative
> > impedance between the source {amp} and the load {antenna}. In this
> > case, as example, a 1.5:1 SWR can be 75 ohms or it can be 33 ohms.
> > SWR and Power meters are calibrated for 50 ohms and are based on
> > voltage on the feed line. Again we see that the impedance or the R
> > part being different will affect the Power. In order to deliver the
> > same power into a 33 ohm load, the amp is required to deliver more
> > current and thus more drive is required.
> >
> > From an RF measurement at a given point with different impedance's we
> > find:
> >
> > 1500 watts into 75 ohms is 335 volts with a current of 4.47 amps
> >
> > 1500 watts into 50 ohms is 273 volts with a current of 5.47 amps
> >
> > 1500 watts into 33 ohms is 222 volts with a current of 6.74 amps
> >
> > From the above one can see the amp is required to deliver more current
> > into a lower impedance and to do so will require more drive power. And
> > from the above, one can see the voltage on the feed line is different
> > with different loads. In this regard, in as much as we measure power
> > as a voltage with a known resistance the power measurements can be in
> > error. Our power indicating devices are calibrated for 50 ohms.
> > Any deviation from 50 ohms will thus cause an error in power indication.
> >
> > A third component of SWR and Power measurements would be Common Mode
> > Current on the feed line. This is usually current induced on the
> > outside of the feed line from the power radiated from the antenna.
> > This common mode current is not measured by our power indicating
> > instruments. As a side note, Windom antennas are noted to exhibit
> > high Common Mode Current conditions. The solution for CMC is to have
> > a good Common Mode Choke at the feed point of the antenna, where the
> > feed line connects, and also at the station end.
> >
> > Jim, K9YC, has and excellent paper on the topic:
> > http://audiosystemsgroup.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
> >
> > Also, Rick, DJ0IP has a lot of valid information on his site:
> >
> > http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/
> >
> > http://www.dj0ip.de/rf-cmc-chokes/
> >
> > Now after all of this is said and done, I'd say your results with your
> > KPA1500 are normal. Hence the reason for the variation in drive is
> > due to the load impedance presented to the amp and the power
> > measurement method.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Bob, K4TAX
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/2019 6:59 AM, N4ZR wrote:
> >> I have two 40M antennas, a Carolina Windom and a full-wave parasitic
> >> sloper. I have just noticed that on any given frequency, my K3 must
> >> deliver considerably more power on one than the other, in order for
> >> the amp to produce 1500 watts. The difference is 27 watts on one vs
> >> 42 watts on the other. Is this normal?
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

K9MA

Re: KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

Based on my experience, the KPA1500 is very sensitive to small changes
in load impedance (SWR) with respect to power gain and current. The ATU
software is much better than it started out, but still sometimes doesn't
get below 1.2:1. That could result in the kind of power gain variation
Pete is seeing.

73,
Scott K9MA

On 10/23/2019 12:24, Jim Rhodes wrote:

> Actually the fact that you were using the internal tuner doesn't change the
> chance that with the settings on the auto tuner don't tell you which
> direction the tuning of a certain antenna approach unity from. So there
> could be twice the variation allowed between the 2 antennas. So if one is
> coming from high impedance and stops at say 1.2:1 and the other is coming
> from low and stops at 1.2:1 then there is still a considerable difference
> between them. Putting an analyser on them to see the starting point the
> tuner is working on could explain a lot.
>
> Jim Rhodes
> K0XU
>
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 11:17 N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks to everyone who replied, either directly or on the list. I'm
>> sorry, but I forgot to mention one key fact - I was running the amp's
>> ATU with both of these antennas. Assuming that the amp's power output
>> measurement is done at the input of the ATU and not the output, and that
>> the ATU settings for the two antennas ( ATU rRetune SWR and ATU Stop Tun
>> SWR ) are identical, this really does look to me like a difference in
>> amplifier gain rather than measurement error.
>>
>> The antennas are clearly a lot different - in fact the Windom will often
>> throw a Reflected Power fault when I first switch to it - but it seems
>> to me that after the ATU they should look the same.
>>
>> 73, Pete N4ZR
>> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
>> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
>> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
>> For spots, please use your favorite
>> "retail" DX cluster.
>>
>> On 10/23/2019 9:55 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
>>> Pete:
>>>
>>> The fact it requires more drive with one antenna as opposed to another
>>> says the two antennas do not have the same impedance. This is not at
>>> all unusual. Power measurements, with the methods used in ham radio
>>> applications, are based on voltage measurements with the impedance
>>> presumed to be 50 ohms. Ohms law says P = E²/R thus any change in R
>>> {impedance} will cause a change in Power indicated or measured at a
>>> given point.
>>>
>>> A second factor is SWR which is an indication of the relative
>>> impedance between the source {amp} and the load {antenna}. In this
>>> case, as example, a 1.5:1 SWR can be 75 ohms or it can be 33 ohms.
>>> SWR and Power meters are calibrated for 50 ohms and are based on
>>> voltage on the feed line. Again we see that the impedance or the R
>>> part being different will affect the Power. In order to deliver the
>>> same power into a 33 ohm load, the amp is required to deliver more
>>> current and thus more drive is required.
>>>
>>> From an RF measurement at a given point with different impedance's we
>>> find:
>>>
>>> 1500 watts into 75 ohms is 335 volts with a current of 4.47 amps
>>>
>>> 1500 watts into 50 ohms is 273 volts with a current of 5.47 amps
>>>
>>> 1500 watts into 33 ohms is 222 volts with a current of 6.74 amps
>>>
>>> From the above one can see the amp is required to deliver more current
>>> into a lower impedance and to do so will require more drive power. And
>>> from the above, one can see the voltage on the feed line is different
>>> with different loads. In this regard, in as much as we measure power
>>> as a voltage with a known resistance the power measurements can be in
>>> error. Our power indicating devices are calibrated for 50 ohms.
>>> Any deviation from 50 ohms will thus cause an error in power indication.
>>>
>>> A third component of SWR and Power measurements would be Common Mode
>>> Current on the feed line. This is usually current induced on the
>>> outside of the feed line from the power radiated from the antenna.
>>> This common mode current is not measured by our power indicating
>>> instruments. As a side note, Windom antennas are noted to exhibit
>>> high Common Mode Current conditions. The solution for CMC is to have
>>> a good Common Mode Choke at the feed point of the antenna, where the
>>> feed line connects, and also at the station end.
>>>
>>> Jim, K9YC, has and excellent paper on the topic:
>>> http://audiosystemsgroup.com/2018Cookbook.pdf
>>>
>>> Also, Rick, DJ0IP has a lot of valid information on his site:
>>>
>>> http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/
>>>
>>> http://www.dj0ip.de/rf-cmc-chokes/
>>>
>>> Now after all of this is said and done, I'd say your results with your
>>> KPA1500 are normal. Hence the reason for the variation in drive is
>>> due to the load impedance presented to the amp and the power
>>> measurement method.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Bob, K4TAX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/23/2019 6:59 AM, N4ZR wrote:
>>>> I have two 40M antennas, a Carolina Windom and a full-wave parasitic
>>>> sloper. I have just noticed that on any given frequency, my K3 must
>>>> deliver considerably more power on one than the other, in order for
>>>> the amp to produce 1500 watts. The difference is 27 watts on one vs
>>>> 42 watts on the other. Is this normal?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>

--
Scott K9MA

[hidden email]

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: KPA-1500: Widely varying drive requirement - same frequency, different antenna

Administrator

In reply to this post by N4ZR

This is not unusual when the loads presented by the antennas (or tuner) to the amp are different. This can even be true when the SWRs are identical if the actual +/- reactance of one is different than the other.

This is most noticeable on lower freq bands where the amps gain is typically higher.

Eric
elecraft.com
---
Sent from my iPhone 6S

> On Oct 23, 2019, at 5:00 AM, N4ZR <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I have two 40M antennas, a Carolina Windom and a full-wave parasitic sloper. I have just noticed that on any given frequency, my K3 must deliver considerably more power on one than the other, in order for the amp to produce 1500 watts. The difference is 27 watts on one vs 42 watts on the other. Is this normal?
>
> --
>
> 73, Pete N4ZR
> Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
> at <http://reversebeacon.net>, now
> spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
> For spots, please use your favorite
> "retail" DX cluster.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]