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KPA-500 Features and Pricing

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Jack Brabham KZ5A

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

Phil,

No anger with Elecraft, they are my favorite ham company, and I'm quite
proud of my K3 even if it did take months of research and hair pulling
to figure out how to get a decent output from it on SSB.

I am concerned, based on the KPA500 rumors, that Elecraft may be
deliberately pricing themselves out of the average ham's range. The
"Oh, it cost so much to produce a product in the USA!" argument doesn't
hold water either. Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that
matter the K3?

I'm thinking that if them old southern boys at MFJ can make a /decent
/amp for around $2/watt, the folks at Elecraft "ought" to be able to
make a /great /amp for about the same money. They definitely smoked
Yaesu and Icom on value postion with the K3.

FWIW "Stupid Yuppies", in my book, would be those folks who are willing
to pay twice what something is actually worth just for a label, or for
the joy of owning the most expensive.

73 Jack KZ5A

K3 #4165

On 9/9/2010 9:46 AM, Phil Townsend wrote:
> Ewww, Jack You are soo mean... "Stupid Yuppies"... Come on Jack, why so angry at a great USA company that ACTUALLY builds some great products?
>
> Phil
> Santa Fe
>
>

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Mark Stennett

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

I am certainly looking forward to getting the KPA500. For me the size,
weight and 6 meters makes this the amp to have in my DXpedition arsenal.

Is there any update on the timing for availability?

73 de na6m

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Matt Palmer-4

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Jack Brabham KZ5A

I may be further taking us off topic here but yuppie stands for something =
young urban professional... Most hams aren't young, you cant have antennas
in an urban environment, and when's the last time you say someone wear a
suit to a hamfest? I feel like I am channeling Indigo Montoya here :-P. The
word you are probably looking for is closer to hipster, though most hams
dont qualify for that either, perhaps fanboi is a better choice.

/snark off

Matt
W8ESE

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Jack Brabham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Phil,
>
> No anger with Elecraft, they are my favorite ham company, and I'm quite
> proud of my K3 even if it did take months of research and hair pulling
> to figure out how to get a decent output from it on SSB.
>
> I am concerned, based on the KPA500 rumors, that Elecraft may be
> deliberately pricing themselves out of the average ham's range. The
> "Oh, it cost so much to produce a product in the USA!" argument doesn't
> hold water either. Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that
> matter the K3?
>
> I'm thinking that if them old southern boys at MFJ can make a /decent
> /amp for around $2/watt, the folks at Elecraft "ought" to be able to
> make a /great /amp for about the same money. They definitely smoked
> Yaesu and Icom on value postion with the K3.
>
> FWIW "Stupid Yuppies", in my book, would be those folks who are willing
> to pay twice what something is actually worth just for a label, or for
> the joy of owning the most expensive.
>
> 73 Jack KZ5A
>
> K3 #4165
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/9/2010 9:46 AM, Phil Townsend wrote:
> > Ewww, Jack You are soo mean... "Stupid Yuppies"... Come on Jack, why so
> angry at a great USA company that ACTUALLY builds some great products?
> >
> > Phil
> > Santa Fe
> >
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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Guy, K2AV

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by K4SC

All of this is very interesting rationale about making a commercial
decision on introducing a product and a price point. Given some of
the stuff advanced in these threads, it is easy to see how 85% of
startup businesses fail. People who underprice go out of business.
People who run on low margins go out of business unless they are very,
very good at what they do, and one of the things they WILL have to do
is cleverly cut engineering corners. On the far side of that, people
who try to design to everything usually wind up alienating more
customers than they serve. The K3 and it's constantly upgrading
firmware is a remarkable exception to this rule.

Elecraft is still with us, even in the worst recession since the great
depression (as is MFJ) and arguably making the best ham transceiver in
the world. They're selling P3's as fast as they can make them. They
are STILL selling a ten year old K2 kit rig that will be one of the
all time classic rigs ever, if for nothing else than length of offer.
Even at this point K2's are relatively rare on the swap/bid channels.
If anything the sales of K2's have picked up since the introduction of
the K3. I'd say based on past performance, betting against Elecraft
is a bit risky bet.

What a K3/P3/KPA500 will be is tightly integrated, with open-ended
features, in a small package footprint. In many ways like the Collins
KWM2/312B4/30L1, but more compact and a far better performer with
features, modes and flexibility only dreamed of in those days.
Further, adjusting for inflation, it will cost less than the Collins
combo.

You betting on MFJ to do better? I'd like to know why I see so many
ALS-600's on the used market, and particularly ALS-1300's for such a
short time on market. Those amps certainly don't have the apparent
retention/popularity of their AL-82/1200/1500 series (I own an AL1200
and some number of MFJ gizmo's). MFJ does what they do, but they are
not Elecraft.

73, Guy
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pbunn

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Jack Brabham KZ5A

I made the comment after building the Motorola EB104 amp demonstration
board. The proper toroidal transformer for it cost over $200 and I had to
wind the secondary.

The MFJ replacement transformer that some builders of this board use cost
about $75 and isn't in the same league with a properly sized toroidal
transformer. It may put out 600 watts for 5 seconds - but not for long. The
linear power supply is unregulated in the MFJ and in my opinion 50%
undersized. Fine for low duty cycle SSB - but not what I would expect from
Elecraft.

The "Southern Boy" comment is a bit of a slight to us technical guys who
live in the south. Most of the MFJ stuff that I have owned was made in China
and had pretty awful QC. Comparing Elecraft gear to MFJ isn't a fair shake.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Brabham" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-500 Features and Pricing

> Phil,
>
> No anger with Elecraft, they are my favorite ham company, and I'm quite
> proud of my K3 even if it did take months of research and hair pulling
> to figure out how to get a decent output from it on SSB.
>
> I am concerned, based on the KPA500 rumors, that Elecraft may be
> deliberately pricing themselves out of the average ham's range. The
> "Oh, it cost so much to produce a product in the USA!" argument doesn't
> hold water either. Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that
> matter the K3?
>
> I'm thinking that if them old southern boys at MFJ can make a /decent
> /amp for around $2/watt, the folks at Elecraft "ought" to be able to
> make a /great /amp for about the same money. They definitely smoked
> Yaesu and Icom on value postion with the K3.
>
> FWIW "Stupid Yuppies", in my book, would be those folks who are willing
> to pay twice what something is actually worth just for a label, or for
> the joy of owning the most expensive.
>
> 73 Jack KZ5A
>
> K3 #4165
>
>
>
>
>
> On 9/9/2010 9:46 AM, Phil Townsend wrote:
>> Ewww, Jack You are soo mean... "Stupid Yuppies"... Come on Jack, why so
>> angry at a great USA company that ACTUALLY builds some great products?
>>
>> Phil
>> Santa Fe
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Ken Kopp-3

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

And Elecraft doesn't hold meters in place with hot glue ... (;-(

73! Ken - K0PP

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Byron N6NUL

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

Hi all,

I have been following the discussion of the KPA500 with interest. While we
will have to wait for full specs when the product is actually shipped, a
question I have had for some time is whether the SGC 500 Power Cube would be
a more comparable amp? SGC makes high quality products, in my opinion, and
was curious why they are not mentioned more.

The amp is solid state, does 160-15m, automatically switches bands and is
$1400. No tight integration and no blinky lights (I'm an engineer. Never,
ever, underestimate the power of blinky lights!), and it is not a kit.
Still it looks pretty nice, if they were not currently having parts supply
problems and were shipping them.

73 de Byron KI6NUL

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Ken Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And Elecraft doesn't hold meters in place with hot glue ... (;-(
>
> 73! Ken - K0PP
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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S Sacco

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Jack Brabham KZ5A

Jack -

Wow - comparing Elecraft to MFJ - it's not really fair, is it?

I mean, other than they both make Amateur Radio products, there's
really no comparison.

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Jack Brabham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Phil,
[snip]
Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that matter the K3?
[end snip]
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Jack Brabham KZ5A

Jack,

Elecraft pricing has been consistent with what the parts cost AFAIK,
plus something to recover engineering and development costs, plus a bit
for profit - and it takes quality parts to build quality equipment.
Those are the main reasons we cannot know the exact price for the KPA500
right now - last minute development is still being done, and things are
likely being lined up to begin determining the component costs, but if
that is nailed in place too far ahead of availability, and component
prices go up in the interim, Elecraft would have to take a bite out the
profits and engineering expense recovery to cover that increased cost.
If you look through the archives, there were a lot of similar requests
to know the price of the P3 which remained unanswered until the final
pricing could be announced, and we can expect the same with the KPA100.

Yes, Elecraft could announce a price right now, if enough "padding" were
added to cover the possibility of increased component costs and possible
last minute engineering costs - but they do not do that. I see this as
an effort by Elecraft to provide the best quality at the best price. If
the price were nailed in place early, a lot of development resources
would be spent trying to figure out how to "cost reduce". Such cost
reduction usually results in a compromise in quality. I believe
Elecraft is doing it the right way to give us a product that is priced
as low as possible given the functions/performance and quality that will
continue to give Elecraft a good name in the marketplace.

Each of us must determine how we spend our money, and we will each make
our own decisions in part based on our perception of the
price/performance/quality trio. There is more to it than just price. I
learned at an early age, one should not buy cheap tools - talking mainly
about the tools of craftsmen - cheap tools wear out quickly, or are made
with metals too soft for the job, or can actually break - and - when a
wrench you are pulling on slips or breaks, it is likely to produce
physical injury. Many times a cheap tool turns out to be the most
expensive if all factors are considered.

So I buy quality tools, not always "top of the line", but still quality
- I want what I buy to last and perform well over its lifetime. Others
may make decisions differently (Harbor Freight sells a lot of tools!).
I do a lot of repair work on Elecraft gear, and I tend to wear out my #1
Phillips screwdriver more quickly than most - I replace it every few
months for two reasons - the new one with its sharper tip edges works
better (screws don't fall off) so I can be efficient, and I do not want
to risk rounding out the screws on a client's equipment - it would not
do for me to buy a mid-priced or inexpensive tool, but then I do not buy
them at Brookstone either.
There are enough of us in each category to make the KPA500 a viable
product for Elecraft. If they did not think so, they would not be
expending resources on it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/9/2010 2:44 PM, Jack Brabham wrote:

John Klewer

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Jack Brabham KZ5A

John Klewer

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

On the other end of the price spectrum, way above the speculated-upon
price of the KPA500, are the Tokyo Hy-Power amps (the 1500 model has
~2.5 dB more power but otherwise similar) for around $3500 and the SPE
Expert 1K-FA listing at around $3900 (auto tuner built-in).

Seems to me that the (doubtless) better quality of the Elecraft product
compared to the ALS-600 makes the $2000-ish price for the KPA-500 sound
quite reasonable.

John, N6AX
K3 #567

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Doug Person

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by Matt Palmer-4

Actually, it means Young "Upwardly-Mobile" Professional. At least it
did years ago when I first heard the term.

Doug -- K0DXV

On 9/9/2010 12:54 PM, Matt Palmer wrote:

> I may be further taking us off topic here but yuppie stands for something =
> young urban professional... Most hams aren't young, you cant have antennas
> in an urban environment, and when's the last time you say someone wear a
> suit to a hamfest? I feel like I am channeling Indigo Montoya here :-P. The
> word you are probably looking for is closer to hipster, though most hams
> dont qualify for that either, perhaps fanboi is a better choice.
>
> /snark off
>
>
> Matt
> W8ESE
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 1:44 PM, Jack Brabham<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Phil,
>>
>> No anger with Elecraft, they are my favorite ham company, and I'm quite
>> proud of my K3 even if it did take months of research and hair pulling
>> to figure out how to get a decent output from it on SSB.
>>
>> I am concerned, based on the KPA500 rumors, that Elecraft may be
>> deliberately pricing themselves out of the average ham's range. The
>> "Oh, it cost so much to produce a product in the USA!" argument doesn't
>> hold water either. Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that
>> matter the K3?
>>
>> I'm thinking that if them old southern boys at MFJ can make a /decent
>> /amp for around $2/watt, the folks at Elecraft "ought" to be able to
>> make a /great /amp for about the same money. They definitely smoked
>> Yaesu and Icom on value postion with the K3.
>>
>> FWIW "Stupid Yuppies", in my book, would be those folks who are willing
>> to pay twice what something is actually worth just for a label, or for
>> the joy of owning the most expensive.
>>
>> 73 Jack KZ5A
>>
>> K3 #4165
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/9/2010 9:46 AM, Phil Townsend wrote:
>>> Ewww, Jack You are soo mean... "Stupid Yuppies"... Come on Jack, why so
>> angry at a great USA company that ACTUALLY builds some great products?
>>> Phil
>>> Santa Fe
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jack Brabham KZ5A

Re: KPA-500 Features and Pricing

In reply to this post by pbunn

Pat,

I'm a "Old Southern Boy" born and raised in Texas, who spent an entire
career in electronics and tele-communications working around the south.

As an old southern boy myself, I was expecting that other old southern
boys would grin and appreciate that there was an implied (but not
expressed) "y'all being so dang smart an all" at the end of the sentence.

Sorry if my southern sense of humor escaped you sir.

As far as comparing MFJ amps to the as yet hypothetical KPA500, I don't
doubt the KPA500 will be a technically better quality product than the
ALS-600. However, being a "value" shopper, I'm just a bit vague on
why it would be worth roughly twice as much money. Being "better"
doesn't necessarily make it a "better value".

If money is no object, then value is irrelevant, but around here these
days money is scarce and value is a major consideration. The K3 was and
is an exceptional value, that's why I bought one. The KPA500 doesn't
seem to be shaping up that way and I for one, would be sad to see
Elecraft moving toward a higher price, lower value marketing scheme.

73 Jack

On 9/9/2010 2:00 PM, Pat Bunn wrote:

> The "Southern Boy" comment is a bit of a slight to us technical guys who
> live in the south. Most of the MFJ stuff that I have owned was made in China
> and had pretty awful QC. Comparing Elecraft gear to MFJ isn't a fair shake.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Brabham"<[hidden email]>
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 2:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-500 Features and Pricing
>
>
>> Phil,
>>
>> No anger with Elecraft, they are my favorite ham company, and I'm quite
>> proud of my K3 even if it did take months of research and hair pulling
>> to figure out how to get a decent output from it on SSB.
>>
>> I am concerned, based on the KPA500 rumors, that Elecraft may be
>> deliberately pricing themselves out of the average ham's range. The
>> "Oh, it cost so much to produce a product in the USA!" argument doesn't
>> hold water either. Where do you suppose MFJ's are made? Or for that
>> matter the K3?
>>
>> I'm thinking that if them old southern boys at MFJ can make a /decent
>> /amp for around $2/watt, the folks at Elecraft "ought" to be able to
>> make a /great /amp for about the same money. They definitely smoked
>> Yaesu and Icom on value postion with the K3.
>>
>> FWIW "Stupid Yuppies", in my book, would be those folks who are willing
>> to pay twice what something is actually worth just for a label, or for
>> the joy of owning the most expensive.
>>
>> 73 Jack KZ5A
>>
>> K3 #4165
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/9/2010 9:46 AM, Phil Townsend wrote:
>>> Ewww, Jack You are soo mean... "Stupid Yuppies"... Come on Jack, why so
>>> angry at a great USA company that ACTUALLY builds some great products?
>>>
>>> Phil
>>> Santa Fe
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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