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KPA500 shutting down

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Michael Walker

KPA500 shutting down

I run a remote base with a KPA500. The Amp is a 3 hour drive away.

I can control just about everything remotely without effort. The
installation has been rock solid for years (Flex 6300 / KPA500) and lots
of chokes everwhere.

Last week the unit worked fine. Today the KPA500 appears to shut down
based on the Remote GUI.

I will be on SSB, and then I see the bar at the bottom go to PWR OFF, reset
and go back to Powering ON/ Amp On. This is when the amp is only producing
about 300 watts peak (about 24 watts drive).

There are no error messages displayed at all and the only thing I suspect
it might be is low AC voltage into the amp.

RF could be the problem, however in 2 years running contests, this is the
first time I have seen a shutdown like this. I run many Mix 43 chokes on
all coax and signal lines.

Are there other messages I can see by monitoring the Serial port at all?
Any thing else I can do remotely?

I can recreate this on 160/80/40m. Those antennas are at least 150 ft from
the station.

Also, at times, the GUI will seem to freeze. The buttons work, but the bar
graphs are stuck frozen in time at a peak reading. Yet, I can power off
the amp when this happens.

Currently, the amp is about 34F ambient temp. In the past, I have used it
well below that (-25F) without issue (last winter).

My question is to the Elecraft guru's. Any thoughts? I am trying to
retrieve more data from the KPA500 remotely.

Mike va3mw
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Bill-3

Re: KPA500 shutting down

First thing that comes to mind - high SWR.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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Michael Walker

Re: KPA500 shutting down

Not an SWR issue. I can see the SWR on the KPA500 and on the external W2.
Both would alarm if the SWR got above got above 3:1.

At least, for the moment, I have eliminated that.

It could be breakdown in an antenna switch, but that would again show up as
something other than the until powering off and on.

Yes, it does seem like RF, but when nothing has changed in a year (and I
mean nothing), I have to set that aside too until I have eliminated a few
other things.

I appreciate the idea though.

Mike va3mw

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> First thing that comes to mind - high SWR.
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Jack Brindle-2

Re: KPA500 shutting down

Mike;

There is no event in the firmware that should cause power down other that activating the power on/off signal, either through the front panel button or the AUX/IO signal. Having said this, obviously something is going on.
You don’t report any faults being shown, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any. Is there anything anomalous that you are seeing other than the KPA powering off? Is there any connection to pin 8 of the KPA’s AUX connector? If so, it could be triggering the power-off.

Let’s try to gather more information to determine what is going on. If you can capture a current fault dump using the KPA Utility I will analyze it to see what it might reveal. I don’t know if you can get that remotely, but it is worth a try.

73,

Jack Brindle, W6FB
Elecraft Engineering

> On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Not an SWR issue. I can see the SWR on the KPA500 and on the external W2.
> Both would alarm if the SWR got above got above 3:1.
>
> At least, for the moment, I have eliminated that.
>
> It could be breakdown in an antenna switch, but that would again show up as
> something other than the until powering off and on.
>
> Yes, it does seem like RF, but when nothing has changed in a year (and I
> mean nothing), I have to set that aside too until I have eliminated a few
> other things.
>
> I appreciate the idea though.
>
> Mike va3mw
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> First thing that comes to mind - high SWR.
>>
>> Bill W2BLC K-Line
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Michael Walker

Re: KPA500 shutting down

Thanks Jack for taking the time to reply.

No faults are shown on the GUI. There is no connection to Pin 8 of the Aux
connector either.

I will try to pull a dump tonight when I get home. I will also do a trap
on the serial line to see if I can capture any data during a failure. That
will hopefully point us in the correct direction.

73, Mike va3mw

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Jack Brindle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Mike;
>
> There is no event in the firmware that should cause power down other that
> activating the power on/off signal, either through the front panel button
> or the AUX/IO signal. Having said this, obviously something is going on.
> You don’t report any faults being shown, but that doesn’t mean there
> aren’t any. Is there anything anomalous that you are seeing other than the
> KPA powering off? Is there any connection to pin 8 of the KPA’s AUX
> connector? If so, it could be triggering the power-off.
>
> Let’s try to gather more information to determine what is going on. If you
> can capture a current fault dump using the KPA Utility I will analyze it to
> see what it might reveal. I don’t know if you can get that remotely, but it
> is worth a try.
>
> 73,
>
> Jack Brindle, W6FB
> Elecraft Engineering
>
> > On Nov 22, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Not an SWR issue. I can see the SWR on the KPA500 and on the external
> W2.
> > Both would alarm if the SWR got above got above 3:1.
> >
> > At least, for the moment, I have eliminated that.
> >
> > It could be breakdown in an antenna switch, but that would again show up
> as
> > something other than the until powering off and on.
> >
> > Yes, it does seem like RF, but when nothing has changed in a year (and I
> > mean nothing), I have to set that aside too until I have eliminated a few
> > other things.
> >
> > I appreciate the idea though.
> >
> > Mike va3mw
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> First thing that comes to mind - high SWR.
> >>
> >> Bill W2BLC K-Line
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>

Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: KPA500 shutting down

In reply to this post by Michael Walker

Perhaps outdoors you have had a ground go bad, or a connector go bad, to
all of a sudden have RF in the shack. Connection work loose, that kind of
thing. These could happen without your seeing SWR on the line you are
transmitting on.

73, Guy K2AV

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I run a remote base with a KPA500. The Amp is a 3 hour drive away.
>
> I can control just about everything remotely without effort. The
> installation has been rock solid for years (Flex 6300 / KPA500) and lots
> of chokes everwhere.
>
> Last week the unit worked fine. Today the KPA500 appears to shut down
> based on the Remote GUI.
>
> I will be on SSB, and then I see the bar at the bottom go to PWR OFF, reset
> and go back to Powering ON/ Amp On. This is when the amp is only producing
> about 300 watts peak (about 24 watts drive).
>
> There are no error messages displayed at all and the only thing I suspect
> it might be is low AC voltage into the amp.
>
> RF could be the problem, however in 2 years running contests, this is the
> first time I have seen a shutdown like this. I run many Mix 43 chokes on
> all coax and signal lines.
>
> Are there other messages I can see by monitoring the Serial port at all?
> Any thing else I can do remotely?
>
> I can recreate this on 160/80/40m. Those antennas are at least 150 ft from
> the station.
>
> Also, at times, the GUI will seem to freeze. The buttons work, but the bar
> graphs are stuck frozen in time at a peak reading. Yet, I can power off
> the amp when this happens.
>
> Currently, the amp is about 34F ambient temp. In the past, I have used it
> well below that (-25F) without issue (last winter).
>
> My question is to the Elecraft guru's. Any thoughts? I am trying to
> retrieve more data from the KPA500 remotely.
>
> Mike va3mw
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Rick WA6NHC-2

Re: KPA500 shutting down

It could also be tiny livestock nibbling at the wiring, making nests etc. (or large livestock tripping, kicking ...) Just because you didn't do anything doesn't mean they're idle. Natural events such as lightning, icing of the antennas or something else could make things go wonky (usually a reset of power clears electrical issues and it might NOT be KPA related if one of the other connected devices went whack). If you haven't been there in a year, perhaps loneliness? ;-)

If you are using a remote computer, the readings you seek to know (voltage, current, SWR) are available via the utility program (that's how I control mine remotely).

I'd be VERY curious if shutdown was truly random as opposed to happening when the transmitter was on. But that would tend to point to a non-RF issue.

Ultimately, it appears you'll have to take a day trip to investigate.

73,
Rick

Spell Czech happens

> On Nov 22, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Perhaps outdoors you have had a ground go bad, or a connector go bad, to
> all of a sudden have RF in the shack. Connection work loose, that kind of
> thing. These could happen without your seeing SWR on the line you are
> transmitting on.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I run a remote base with a KPA500. The Amp is a 3 hour drive away.
>>
>> I can control just about everything remotely without effort. The
>> installation has been rock solid for years (Flex 6300 / KPA500) and lots
>> of chokes everwhere.
>>
>> Last week the unit worked fine. Today the KPA500 appears to shut down
>> based on the Remote GUI.
>>
>> I will be on SSB, and then I see the bar at the bottom go to PWR OFF, reset
>> and go back to Powering ON/ Amp On. This is when the amp is only producing
>> about 300 watts peak (about 24 watts drive).
>>
>> There are no error messages displayed at all and the only thing I suspect
>> it might be is low AC voltage into the amp.
>>
>> RF could be the problem, however in 2 years running contests, this is the
>> first time I have seen a shutdown like this. I run many Mix 43 chokes on
>> all coax and signal lines.
>>
>> Are there other messages I can see by monitoring the Serial port at all?
>> Any thing else I can do remotely?
>>
>> I can recreate this on 160/80/40m. Those antennas are at least 150 ft from
>> the station.
>>
>> Also, at times, the GUI will seem to freeze. The buttons work, but the bar
>> graphs are stuck frozen in time at a peak reading. Yet, I can power off
>> the amp when this happens.
>>
>> Currently, the amp is about 34F ambient temp. In the past, I have used it
>> well below that (-25F) without issue (last winter).
>>
>> My question is to the Elecraft guru's. Any thoughts? I am trying to
>> retrieve more data from the KPA500 remotely.
>>
>> Mike va3mw
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Chris Tate - N6WM

Re: KPA500 shutting down

Mike I totally agree with this assessment. As you know I have a remote contest site. As you are probably aware the systems in a remote site can go long periods with no problems, but usually if all the telemetry looks ok there are various other factors that may require eyes on check. Most of the time I have discovered to "trust my instruments". Fortunately my remote KPA-500/KAT-500 combo have provided years of very reliable service in a less than hospitable environment at K6LRG.

I wish you the best of luck in tracking this down!

Chris
N6WM
________________________________________
From: Elecraft [[hidden email]] on behalf of Rick Bates (WA6NHC) [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 1:35 PM
To: Guy Olinger K2AV
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA500 shutting down

It could also be tiny livestock nibbling at the wiring, making nests etc. (or large livestock tripping, kicking ...) Just because you didn't do anything doesn't mean they're idle. Natural events such as lightning, icing of the antennas or something else could make things go wonky (usually a reset of power clears electrical issues and it might NOT be KPA related if one of the other connected devices went whack). If you haven't been there in a year, perhaps loneliness? ;-)

If you are using a remote computer, the readings you seek to know (voltage, current, SWR) are available via the utility program (that's how I control mine remotely).

I'd be VERY curious if shutdown was truly random as opposed to happening when the transmitter was on. But that would tend to point to a non-RF issue.

Ultimately, it appears you'll have to take a day trip to investigate.

73,
Rick

Spell Czech happens

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]
______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Message delivered to [hidden email]

Michael Walker

Re: KPA500 shutting down

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

I wanted to say thanks to Jack for spending time after hours analyzing my
KPA500 log and providing some detailed analysis.

While I haven't solved the problem yet, I have enough clues that possibly
support my theory of a bad AC supply line.

I will likely get to my remote base over the weekend, so I should have the
next clue on why it fails by then.

It is thanks to the support of Elecraft that I buy their product. In fact,
when it comes to HF, I only use US manufactures for radios and supporting
products. That is because they all provide amazing service!

Mike va3mw

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Perhaps outdoors you have had a ground go bad, or a connector go bad, to
> all of a sudden have RF in the shack. Connection work loose, that kind of
> thing. These could happen without your seeing SWR on the line you are
> transmitting on.
>
> 73, Guy K2AV
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> I run a remote base with a KPA500. The Amp is a 3 hour drive away.
>>
>> I can control just about everything remotely without effort. The
>> installation has been rock solid for years (Flex 6300 / KPA500) and lots
>> of chokes everwhere.
>>
>> Last week the unit worked fine. Today the KPA500 appears to shut down
>> based on the Remote GUI.
>>
>> I will be on SSB, and then I see the bar at the bottom go to PWR OFF,
>> reset
>> and go back to Powering ON/ Amp On. This is when the amp is only
>> producing
>> about 300 watts peak (about 24 watts drive).
>>
>> There are no error messages displayed at all and the only thing I suspect
>> it might be is low AC voltage into the amp.
>>
>> RF could be the problem, however in 2 years running contests, this is the
>> first time I have seen a shutdown like this. I run many Mix 43 chokes on
>> all coax and signal lines.
>>
>> Are there other messages I can see by monitoring the Serial port at all?
>> Any thing else I can do remotely?
>>
>> I can recreate this on 160/80/40m. Those antennas are at least 150 ft
>> from
>> the station.
>>
>> Also, at times, the GUI will seem to freeze. The buttons work, but the
>> bar
>> graphs are stuck frozen in time at a peak reading. Yet, I can power off
>> the amp when this happens.
>>
>> Currently, the amp is about 34F ambient temp. In the past, I have used it
>> well below that (-25F) without issue (last winter).
>>
>> My question is to the Elecraft guru's. Any thoughts? I am trying to
>> retrieve more data from the KPA500 remotely.
>>
>> Mike va3mw
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>

Michael Walker

Re: KPA500 shutting down

A final update on this, as the problem is solved.

Jack looked at the logs and had a number of things to comment on, all very
helpful. I knew this was not going to be solved without a trip to the
remote base. It was not a simple software problem.

I am a big fan of looking at the facts (not guessing) and trying to work
out what may be contributing to the problem. One of the things that Jack
said was:

*At this point I highly suspect the power source or the KPA supply. The
hypothesis is that when the power drain from the KPA rises, it causes the
supply source to drop, ending in *
*the problems you are seeing. The problem could be in the KPA’s power
connections, either through the switch or the power cord, or beyond this.
This is further supported by the High Voltage (too high) faults.*
*This usually means a wide swing on the AC supply, which could be due to
the power company or further point at the AC supply feed. Unfortunately
this means a long trip to the site to check on things, but if you have an
AC supply problem, this is warranted. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
If my analysis is indeed correct, you will want to correct the issue, then
check the supply voltage from the transformer to make sure it stays below
the maximum for the HV (90 volts).*

When I got to my remote base, I found 2 trees had landed on my power feeder
lines. While the lines were not broken, the Neutral line was and this was
the problem as the system was unbalanced.

I called Ontario Hydro (Hydro One) and they had 2 guys and a bucket truck
onsite within 30 minutes. The line was fixed within another 30 minutes and
after that, the Amp worked as it should.

It is a good thing it wasn't during the summer as I would have lost a lot
of appliances. The only things running had switching power supplies in
them, so they survived.

Thanks to Elecraft for the excellent customer support and the smarts to
have good logging data in their amplifier to assist in diagnosing issue.

Many 73, Mike va3mw

On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I wanted to say thanks to Jack for spending time after hours analyzing my
> KPA500 log and providing some detailed analysis.
>
> While I haven't solved the problem yet, I have enough clues that possibly
> support my theory of a bad AC supply line.
>
> I will likely get to my remote base over the weekend, so I should have the
> next clue on why it fails by then.
>
> It is thanks to the support of Elecraft that I buy their product. In
> fact, when it comes to HF, I only use US manufactures for radios and
> supporting products. That is because they all provide amazing service!
>
> Mike va3mw
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps outdoors you have had a ground go bad, or a connector go bad, to
>> all of a sudden have RF in the shack. Connection work loose, that kind of
>> thing. These could happen without your seeing SWR on the line you are
>> transmitting on.
>>
>> 73, Guy K2AV
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, Michael Walker <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I run a remote base with a KPA500. The Amp is a 3 hour drive away.
>>>
>>> I can control just about everything remotely without effort. The
>>> installation has been rock solid for years (Flex 6300 / KPA500) and lots
>>> of chokes everwhere.
>>>
>>> Last week the unit worked fine. Today the KPA500 appears to shut down
>>> based on the Remote GUI.
>>>
>>> I will be on SSB, and then I see the bar at the bottom go to PWR OFF,
>>> reset
>>> and go back to Powering ON/ Amp On. This is when the amp is only
>>> producing
>>> about 300 watts peak (about 24 watts drive).
>>>
>>> There are no error messages displayed at all and the only thing I suspect
>>> it might be is low AC voltage into the amp.
>>>
>>> RF could be the problem, however in 2 years running contests, this is the
>>> first time I have seen a shutdown like this. I run many Mix 43 chokes on
>>> all coax and signal lines.
>>>
>>> Are there other messages I can see by monitoring the Serial port at all?
>>> Any thing else I can do remotely?
>>>
>>> I can recreate this on 160/80/40m. Those antennas are at least 150 ft
>>> from
>>> the station.
>>>
>>> Also, at times, the GUI will seem to freeze. The buttons work, but the
>>> bar
>>> graphs are stuck frozen in time at a peak reading. Yet, I can power off
>>> the amp when this happens.
>>>
>>> Currently, the amp is about 34F ambient temp. In the past, I have used
>>> it
>>> well below that (-25F) without issue (last winter).
>>>
>>> My question is to the Elecraft guru's. Any thoughts? I am trying to
>>> retrieve more data from the KPA500 remotely.
>>>
>>> Mike va3mw
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>
>>
>