KUSB for K3

[Thom LaCosta]

I see a KUSB option for the K3, Universal Serial Bus Adpater....can't seem to
find it on the FaQ page.  Does anyone know if it's an internal option, or an
external adapter?

I have a serial port-less computer and no luck finding adapters to give me a
serial port.

Thom

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[Ken Wagner K3IU]

Hi Thom:
I've seen nothing definitive on this but I'm pretty sure that this
device is one that plugs the 9 pin end of the adapter into the 9 pin
connector on the K3 and you use a USB cable between the adapter and your
USB port on your computer.
73, Ken K3IU

Thom LaCosta wrote:

> I see a KUSB option for the K3, Universal Serial Bus Adpater....can't
> seem to find it on the FaQ page.  Does anyone know if it's an internal
> option, or an external adapter?
>
> I have a serial port-less computer and no luck finding adapters to
> give me a serial port.
>
> Thom
>
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[Ken Wagner K3IU]

I found reference to this in FAQ under "Computer Interfacing" topic.
73,
Ken K3IU

Ken Wagner wrote:

> Hi Thom:
> I've seen nothing definitive on this but I'm pretty sure that this
> device is one that plugs the 9 pin end of the adapter into the 9 pin
> connector on the K3 and you use a USB cable between the adapter and
> your USB port on your computer.
> 73, Ken K3IU
>
> Thom LaCosta wrote:
>> I see a KUSB option for the K3, Universal Serial Bus Adpater....can't
>> seem to find it on the FaQ page.  Does anyone know if it's an
>> internal option, or an external adapter?
>>
>> I have a serial port-less computer and no luck finding adapters to
>> give me a serial port.
>>
>> Thom
>>
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[Martin AA6E-3]

There are many Serial - USB devices on the general market. (I use a
Keyspan unit on my Orion, and it works nicely with Linux.)  So, I wonder
why Elecraft needs to offer its own unique product.  (Or it could be
someone else's product rebranded?) At least their price is competitive.

73 Martin AA6E

Ken Wagner wrote:

> Hi Thom:
> I've seen nothing definitive on this but I'm pretty sure that this
> device is one that plugs the 9 pin end of the adapter into the 9 pin
> connector on the K3 and you use a USB cable between the adapter and your
> USB port on your computer.
> 73, Ken K3IU
>
> Thom LaCosta wrote:
>> I see a KUSB option for the K3, Universal Serial Bus Adpater....can't
>> seem to find it on the FaQ page.  Does anyone know if it's an internal
>> option, or an external adapter?
>>
>> I have a serial port-less computer and no luck finding adapters to
>> give me a serial port.
>>
>> Thom
>>
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Martin,

Yes, there are a lot of USB adapters on the market at a wide variety of
prices, but it seems not all are equal.  Review the number of questions
related to 'will adapter XXX work with YYY'.  With the offering by
Elecraft, there can be no doubt that it will work with the Elecraft K3.

Will other adapters work?  Maybe, but we *DO* know the answer for the
Elecraft adapter - no guessing.

73,
Don W3FPR

Martin AA6E wrote:
> There are many Serial - USB devices on the general market. (I use a
> Keyspan unit on my Orion, and it works nicely with Linux.)  So, I wonder
> why Elecraft needs to offer its own unique product.  (Or it could be
> someone else's product rebranded?) At least their price is competitive.
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Ken Wagner wrote:

> I found reference to this in FAQ under "Computer Interfacing" topic.

Thanks....it's the most obvious place to look, but I relied on the web site's
search engine.

Thom
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Martin AA6E wrote:

> There are many Serial - USB devices on the general market. (I use a Keyspan
> unit on my Orion, and it works nicely with Linux.)  So, I wonder why Elecraft
> needs to offer its own unique product.  (Or it could be someone else's
> product rebranded?) At least their price is competitive.

I have a keyspan...it looks like it works on windows...sorta, kinda, but it
doesn't.

But, it could be a Dell hardware issue, not a wondows issue.

Hope the Elecraft one works with my system....I'd hate to have to buy an old
laptop simply to have a serial port (g).

Thom

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[Thom LaCosta]

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Don Wilhelm wrote:

>
> Will other adapters work?  Maybe, but we *DO* know the answer for the
> Elecraft adapter - no guessing.

Since you do know....what operating systems were used to test the adapter?

The converters get me connfused....seems like there could be hardware issues,
firmware issues, OS issues....or some nasty combination thereof.

Thom

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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

I think Elecraft are making the correct decision by supplying a Serial<=>USB
converter which is known to work. Being involved with the software side of
the things it's problems with the Serial<=>USB which cause the most grief.

Known hardware doesn't always work - even if it has Elecraft stamped on its
breast. Other factors such as an inadequate USB port come into play, however
this is something which is easy to test and document:

Simon Brown, HB9DRV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thom LaCosta" <[hidden email]>
>
>> There are many Serial - USB devices on the general market. (I use a
>> Keyspan unit on my Orion, and it works nicely with Linux.)  So, I wonder
>> why Elecraft needs to offer its own unique product.  (Or it could be
>> someone else's product rebranded?) At least their price is competitive.
>
> I have a keyspan...it looks like it works on windows...sorta, kinda, but
> it doesn't.
>
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[Tom Hammond-3]

Don Wilhelm wrote, regarding USB to Serial Adapters:

>Yes, there are a lot of USB adapters on the market at a wide variety
>of prices, but it seems not all are equal.  Review the number of
>questions related to 'will adapter XXX work with YYY'.  With the
>offering by Elecraft, there can be no doubt that it will work with
>the Elecraft K3.
>
>Will other adapters work?  Maybe, but we *DO* know the answer for
>the Elecraft adapter - no guessing.

I have a Tripp-Lite U-209-000-R adapter which WORKS GREAT.. BUT... it
does NOT want to be peroperly detected, and drivers auto-loaded, if
it's plugged into the USB port when the PC is booted up! If it's left
plugged in when the PCs booted, the OS (WinXP Pro in my case) wants
to re-install the drivers EVERY TIME!

If I UNplug the adapter, boot the PC, and THEN plug the adapter in,
WinXP finds and installed it with no complaints.

I'm posting this as a word of caution to those who might be
considering a Tripp-Lite adapter.

I'm not certain if this is a problem unique to WinXP or not. It seems
to be a problem with regard to 'order of installation' of the device
drivers, with the adapter drivers not being installed in time for the
adapter to have been detected... OR with them being installed too
early to have been of use.

73,

Tom   N0SS




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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Interestingly, this this of problem is created for Windows.  There are a
limited number of USB/RS232 converter chip types in the world, all
supportable by a small number of drivers.  Each seller, though, gets to
set an "id" in the chiop, which tells the OS what driver to load.  The
RS232/serial bump-in-the-cord devices could all get by with the same
driver for the same chip if this number weren't changed.

So, why does this number exist?  Partly yo allow manufacturers of
hardware to make it look like there's something special about their
devices by adding features in the driver, but mainly to accomodate
automatic detection of devices that directly incorporate these chips and
offer some other functionality (I.e. other than the generic
converters).  Devices such as cameras generally have their own protocols
and don't use the generic serial chips, but there are indeed some
devices out there that use this ID to make a useful driver load.
The price we have to pay on Windows is getting a new driver for each
one, and suffering from needlessly buggy copies of the code as Tom has
reported.

If the K3 had its own internal chip with its own ID, there would be an
opportunity to have Windows auto-launch an application (Ham Radio
Deluxe? N1MM Logger?) whenever it detected the special K3 ID.  There
isn't much advantage to this, and it would require, because of the way
Windows works, a special driver.

On Linux, the RS232 coverter generic drivers work fine for the
USB-Serial devices, but you don't get the automatic application launch
that you can get with Windows, although it is possible to configure it
for some the special devices.   The problems with them come mostly in
the cases where they really are closer TTL instead of RS232 and the
keying circuit depends on the negative swing, or the supply isn't stiff
enough to meet the signalling device needs (both problems on Windows as
well).

Of course, Linux suffers as well from the need to have unique driver (or
more likely application) support for devices that directly incorporate
these chips and offer some functionality other than just serial
conversion.

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
On Sun, 6 May 2007 8:51 am, Tom Hammond wrote:
> Don Wilhelm wrote, regarding USB to Serial  If it's left plugged in
> when the PCs booted, the OS (WinXP Pro in my case) wants to re-install
> the drivers EVERY TIME!
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Thom,

I guess I should have said *WILL* know - I don't know the answer yet,
but I have faith that the answer will be available.

73,
Don W3FPR

Thom LaCosta wrote:

> On Sun, 6 May 2007, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
>>
>> Will other adapters work?  Maybe, but we *DO* know the answer for the
>> Elecraft adapter - no guessing.
>
> Since you do know....what operating systems were used to test the adapter?
>
> The converters get me connfused....seems like there could be hardware
> issues,
> firmware issues, OS issues....or some nasty combination thereof.
>

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

Personally, I would dearly love to see Elecraft offer an Ethernet/IP  
interface for the K3. That would be sufficiently fast that we could  
not only send commands and get status, but we can also send/receive  
audio or other modulations as well. I would dearly love to see  
various digital modulation/demodulation modes built into the DSP;  
e.g. BPSK, QPSK, QAM, MSK, FSK, OFDM, baseband audio, etc. Let me  
send a UDP packet filled with bits to the K3 and have the DSP in the  
K3 modulate and transmit. Likewise I would like the received bits  
demodulated and dumped into a UDP packet to be sent wherever I want  
those bits. This would turn the K3 into a full-on SDR (within the  
bandwidth limits of the low-IF which is determined by the sampling  
rate of the A:D/D:A).

This approach means I can have multiple computers interacting with  
the K3.  Maybe I want the main receiver data going to one computer,  
the second receiver data going to a second computer, the transmit  
data coming from a third computer, and a fourth computer controlling  
it all. Or I could have one computer controlling multiple K3's. It  
also means that the data on the wire is the standard which makes it  
easy for people to write software for different platforms, e.g.  
Windows, Mac, Linux, Java, etc.

And it is time to start thinking of everything as data. Even audio is  
data since it is just bits inside the DSP.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On May 7, 2007, at 7:20 AM, Thom LaCosta wrote:

> On Sun, 6 May 2007, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>>
>> But getting back to the question, insofar as the K3 is concerned,  
>> it is doing serial async RS-232. That is pretty generic. Virtually  
>> any one-USB-to-one-serial-port adaptor is going to work with your  
>> computer.
>
> I have been through 3 adpaters here that don't work with my  
> Dell....I hope the KUSB does.

I suspect you will find that the KUSB won't work either.

I suspect you are running Windows. There you are at the mercy of each  
provider of the USB/serial converter to provide you with a driver  
that works. But as someone else said, it could be a problem with the  
USB port on the computer. Via made a USB 1.0 chip at one point that  
ended up in a lot of computers and that just didn't work right.  
Getting USB to work properly on those computers is a challenge and  
many USB devices just didn't work right as a result.

So, getting USB to work depends on the following:

1. the chip(s) implementing the USB port in your computer;
2. the driver for the chip implementing the USB port in your computer;
3. the chip(s) implementing the serial-to-USB adaptor;
4. the driver provided with the serial-to-USB adaptor.

If you are using a MacOS, Linux, or a flavor of UNIX you will find  
that there tend to be only a few generic drivers for this since the  
drivers are based on the chip(s) used. Windows requires a vendor-
specific driver for each device. The latter means that even if you  
get the same hardware (serial-to-USB converter) from two different  
vendors (generic Taiwanese serial-to-USB adaptor), you need two  
different drivers for Windows but only one generic driver with MacOS,  
Linux, or *NIX.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com


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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On May 7, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Thom LaCosta wrote:

> On Mon, 7 May 2007, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>> I suspect you will find that the KUSB won't work either.
>>
>> I suspect you are running Windows.
>
> Thought I had made it clear when I first posted about it.

Sorry. There have been several go-rounds on this and I didn't go back  
and reread your original posting. I was working from memory, a shaky  
proposition at best. ;-)

> It would seem to me that Elecraft should look into providing a USB  
> interface, since there are so many folks using windows and so many  
> vendors no longer use USB.

I think you mean that many no longer use RS-232 serial. I agree with  
you that RS-232 no longer makes a lot of sense.

> If I can't a converter to work, I'll get a card and waste a slot....

First thing to do is go to Dell and upgrade the drivers for your USB  
port/hub in your computer. After that look to see if there are new  
drivers for your USB-to-serial converter and load those. You may find  
it useful to uninstall  all the USB devices (and their drivers) and  
then reinstall them. Sometimes that fixes problems that are resistant  
to other approaches.

You also might consider using a bootable CD with Linux on it to see  
if their drivers will work properly with your hardware.

> With the world using USB, I am amazed that people don't include a  
> USB interface.

If Elecraft opted for having their own USB device then they would  
have to provide drivers for Windows, something I would not want to do  
if I were them as it would raise their tech-support requirement. By  
doing what they have done they have pushed the USB/converter/driver  
problem to someone else. That makes a lot of sense to me.

OTOH I am strongly of the opinion that USB is still too low-level and  
hardware dependent. Ethernet makes a lot more sense as just about  
every computer made today has ethernet and supports TCP/IP  
networking. It would open up many more applications than would USB  
and certainly a lot more than RS-232. Many hams have either a cable  
or a DSL connection to the Internet. That implies that they have  
ethernet running already.

73 de Brian, WB6RQN
Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com


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[Thom LaCosta]

On Mon, 7 May 2007, Brian Lloyd wrote:

>
> I think you mean that many no longer use RS-232 serial. I agree with you that
> RS-232 no longer makes a lot of sense.

Yes, another famous TLC typo (g).

>
>> If I can't a converter to work, I'll get a card and waste a slot....
>
> First thing to do is go to Dell and upgrade the drivers for your USB port/hub
> in your computer.

The auto updates are on...the Dell Dwarfs stay up 24/7 just to update my
machine.

>
> You also might consider using a bootable CD with Linux on it to see if their
> drivers will work properly with your hardware.

You've lost me...test Linux drivers to see if there is a problem with Windows
drivers???? or with the hardware???

>
>> With the world using USB, I am amazed that people don't include a USB
>> interface.
>
> If Elecraft opted for having their own USB device then they would have to
> provide drivers for Windows, something I would not want to do if I were them
> as it would raise their tech-support requirement. By doing what they have
> done they have pushed the USB/converter/driver problem to someone else. That
> makes a lot of sense to me.

But from a customer standpoint, it makes no sense whatsover.  Putting it another
way....If I am faced with replacing an expensive computer system to interface
with a $2000 plus device, I would be upset at having bought the device...and if
I hadn't already purchased it, I would pass on the whole thing.


>
> OTOH I am strongly of the opinion that USB is still too low-level and
> hardware dependent. Ethernet makes a lot more sense as just about every
> computer made today has ethernet and supports TCP/IP networking. It would
> open up many more applications than would USB and certainly a lot more than
> RS-232. Many hams have either a cable or a DSL connection to the Internet.
> That implies that they have ethernet running already.

But many hams have very old computers....and so that would knock them out of the
box.  From my perspective Elecraft would need to have a USB interface(Not an
adapter), and a serial interface.  Your concept of Ethernet is interesting, but
could be not only a challenge to some, but an impossibility for folks with older
units.

After all, I could use my old Osborne to control the K3....the K3 would fit on
top of the luggable.

73,Thom-k3hrn
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[James A-2]

Windows loads USB drivers based on the vendor id and product id reported by
the device. Are you implying that MacOS and Linux do it differently, by
saying the driver used is based on the chip?

73,

Jim

>
>So, getting USB to work depends on the following:
>
>1. the chip(s) implementing the USB port in your computer;
>2. the driver for the chip implementing the USB port in your computer;
>3. the chip(s) implementing the serial-to-USB adaptor;
>4. the driver provided with the serial-to-USB adaptor.
>
>If you are using a MacOS, Linux, or a flavor of UNIX you will find  that
>there tend to be only a few generic drivers for this since the  drivers are
>based on the chip(s) used. Windows requires a vendor- specific driver for
>each device. The latter means that even if you  get the same hardware
>(serial-to-USB converter) from two different  vendors (generic Taiwanese
>serial-to-USB adaptor), you need two  different drivers for Windows but
>only one generic driver with MacOS,  Linux, or *NIX.
>
>73 de Brian, WB6RQN
>Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com
>

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[Thom LaCosta]

On Sun, 6 May 2007, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Thom,
>
> I guess I should have said *WILL* know - I don't know the answer yet, but I
> have faith that the answer will be available.

Maybe Elecraft will ship me a KUSB....I am trying to find my wrap plug.  I'd
like someway to test the serial/usb convertor.

Or...I could volunteer to be the K3<>Dell USB Beta tester (g).

73,Thom-k3hrn
www.zerobeat.net Home of QRP Web Ring, Drakelist home page,Drake Web Ring,
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[Leigh L. Klotz Jr WA5ZNU]

Linux uses vendor and product id as well, but there is wildcard
matching, so the driver is loaded based on the match.  Linux has a more
flexible architecture for USB hotplug, so it is up to the distribution
or the upstream provider of the USB system to decide what driver to
load, not the manufacturer of the peripheral.  Also, in Windows, what is
called the "driver" is often a driver and an application program to be
autorun when the device is detected.  For RS232 dongles, there is no
application program, but for some device that happens to incorporate the
same chip but wants to autolaunch an app, there is.

For example, the Vector Network Analyzer from Mini Radio Solutions uses
such a chip to provide USB connectivity, although it is inherently a
serial device.  When I plug it in to Windows, it uses a generic driver I
had to manually install, and it maps the device to some random COM port,
using a number that changes from time to time; sometimes it is COM11,
sometimes COM13.  I have to find the init file for the VNA software and
edit it.

When I plug it in to Linux, it gets assigned the next device number, and
for some reason it seems stable, so I can leave the init file set as
/dev/ttyUSB1.  (My K2 is on hardware RS232 port /dev/ttyS0 and my
antenna controller on /dev/ttyUSB0).  If the MiniRadioSolutions people
had gone all out, they could have gotten a special id and written
something that runs their Visual Basic program automatically, but then
upgrading it would have been a constant pain for hams who want to change
it or try out other versions.  Still, not having to look for the COM
port would have been nice, and that is mainly what the USB driver system
in Windows tries to solve with its id system.  The price we all pay,
though, is a complete failure for generic devices such as RS232
converters.

When I put an SD card from my camera into my Linux box, it notices it,
finds that it has a Win32 DOS filesystem on it, finds the driver, and
mounts it as a filesystem.  Thw Gnome window system I run at home then
notices the mounted filesystem, susses out the directory structure and
guesses that is is from a camera (and not a USB memory stick for files
or an MP3 player) and offers to start a photo edit/drag-and-drop tool.  
No manufacturer of camera or SD card was involved.  (I suspect the Mac
does the same thing, only in a more refined way and with prettier
icons.)

73,
Leigh/WA5ZNU
On Mon, 7 May 2007 1:41 pm, James austin wrote:

> Windows loads USB drivers based on the vendor id and product id
> reported by the device. Are you implying that MacOS and Linux do it
> differently, by saying the driver used is based on the chip?
>
> 73,
>
> Jim
>
>>
>> So, getting USB to work depends on the following:
>>
>> 1. the chip(s) implementing the USB port in your computer;
>> 2. the driver for the chip implementing the USB port in your computer;
>> 3. the chip(s) implementing the serial-to-USB adaptor;
>> 4. the driver provided with the serial-to-USB adaptor.
>>
>> If you are using a MacOS, Linux, or a flavor of UNIX you will find  
>> that there tend to be only a few generic drivers for this since the  
>> drivers are based on the chip(s) used. Windows requires a vendor-
>> specific driver for each device. The latter means that even if you  
>> get the same hardware (serial-to-USB converter) from two different  
>> vendors (generic Taiwanese serial-to-USB adaptor), you need two  
>> different drivers for Windows but only one generic driver with MacOS,  
>> Linux, or *NIX.
>>
>> 73 de Brian, WB6RQN
>> Brian Lloyd - brian HYPHEN wb6rqn AT lloyd DOT com
>>
>
>
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