KX1 ATU is resetting from TUN to CAL by itself

[Michael Madden-3]

Hi group,

I have the same problem K3ESE below had with the KX1
ATU.  Same conditions, 12V external, 4-5W, good SWR
match, start sending CW, hear the ATU grind a little,
and then the SWR goes to 5.0 or 9.9.  Then another
tune and it does not grind, but tells me it is back to
1.0.  

I did a little digging and found that when it goes
into this bad state, the ATU mode has gone from TUN to
CAL on its own.  When I do the 2nd tune to get it out,
all that is happening is that it is resetting from CAL
back to TUN.  

I see this with a 28' wire in a tree with two 16' and
one 24' counterpoise.  When it tunes, it tunes to 1.0
on 30M and 20M and about 1.5 on 40M.  Then on all
bands, after I send CW for a few characters, I hear
this clicking and the SWR jumps to a high number and
the power out goes down.  Then double-check the ATU
state, and sure enough, it has been reset from TUN to
CAL.  Basically, the high SWR problem is only because
it is bypassing the ATU and giving me whatever the
random wire shows.

I can reproduce this on a dummy load.  However, the
SWR does not jump up, because the dummy load has 1.0
to begin with, even when it automatically moves itself
from TUN to CAL on its own.  But I hear the same
clicking happen when I start to send CW, and I can
verify that it is resetting to CAL mode.

When I turn the KX1 off in this funny state, and turn
it back on, it has not remembered the last frequency I
was on and starts at a different frequency.

Was there ever a cause/fix to this problem ever found?
 It makes having a QSO really difficult when the SWR
keeps jumping back and forth.

Thanks and 73,
Mike N9OHW


----- (original problem statement) -----

Lately, there have been a bunch of times when I
power my KX1 with a 12V supply, activate the tuner to
get a match, and the result is 4-5W and a good match.
Then, while operating, or just while it's sitting, not
being operated, I'll sometimes hear a few relays
chatter for a split second, and the match seems to
have been lost. When I transmit, I see that the power
out is down to 2W or so. I need to activate TUN again,
which will restore the match and the higher power out.

  Where can I look for the answer to this one...?

  thanks,

  LL/K3ESE
  K1#379,KX1#11,K2#4442(in the works)

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[Michael Madden-3]

Just a follow-up to my previous post...  It does not
always reset from TUN to CAL.  I have seen it reset
from TUN to other ATU settings like G03 or some other
random fixed ATU state.  

When I use only the internal AA's, I don't see this
problem happening.  Only on external 12V from 10
NiMH's.  

But I don't want to have to give up those nice 3dB I
get from the 12V and 4W vs. 2W!

Thanks,
Mike N9OHW

--- Michael Madden <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi group,
>
> I have the same problem K3ESE below had with the KX1
> ATU.  Same conditions, 12V external, 4-5W, good SWR
> match, start sending CW, hear the ATU grind a
> little,
> and then the SWR goes to 5.0 or 9.9.

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

That sounds a lot like RF getting back into the controller in the ATU.
Handling RF around a tuner is tricky. A whole lot depends upon the impedance
presented by the antenna. The higher the impedance (which depends upon the
electrical length of the wire) the more RF voltage and the more easily RF
voltage can be capacitively coupled into the wrong circuits. It doesn't take
a whole lot of RF to cause the controller to misbehave.

Suggest you take a close look at the RF filtering provided in the design
first, to make sure none of it has been bypassed accidentally by a solder
bridge or unsoldered connection. That would include the 6V line filter C4,
RFC1 and C5. If either C4 or C5 isn't grounded, it would greatly reduce the
effectiveness of the filter without interfering with the operation of the
tuner otherwise. A solder bridge across RFC1 would have the same effect.

The other critical item is C11 which bypasses one side of the relay coils to
ground for RF.

Unwanted RF feedback usually goes away when the power is reduced simply
because lower power levels reduce the RF voltages present.

Ron AC7AC

-----Original Message-----
Just a follow-up to my previous post...  It does not
always reset from TUN to CAL.  I have seen it reset
from TUN to other ATU settings like G03 or some other
random fixed ATU state.  

When I use only the internal AA's, I don't see this
problem happening.  Only on external 12V from 10
NiMH's.  

But I don't want to have to give up those nice 3dB I
get from the 12V and 4W vs. 2W!

Thanks,
Mike N9OHW

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[Michael Madden-3]

Hi Ron and the group,

Thanks for the feedback.  I checked C4, C5, RFC1, and
C11 and they all all have good connections.  I can
make this happen to a 300W 50 ohm dummy load, so could
it still be stray RF from the antenna?

Two other builders reported this problem in April
2005, and below I have copied Wayne's reply.  Any
resolution found?  Is the offer to analyze and repair
still good? :)

Thanks!

Mike, N9OHW






The KX1 should definitely not lose power output or the
KXAT1 change its L-network settings under any normal
circumstances. We've tested the tuner and the rig
extensively, and I've never seen this happen.

The first things that come to mind are intermittent
component failures or power supply brownouts that
reset the MCU. However, using the tuner with a very
poor (or non-existent) ground, and/or an antenna that
is close to a half wavelength or a multiple thereof
could also cause trouble. RFI in such cases is a
challenge for almost any ATU. The usual remedies are
(1) better ground counterpoise, (2) adjustment to
antenna length, (3) balun. A 4:1 balun can be quite
effective at reducing high RF voltages that might be
present on the chassis or antenna, in many cases
transforming a difficult match into one that's in
range of the tuner.

If anyone has a KX1 that exhibits a consistent failure
pattern, please contact me directly. I would need to
know exactly how the failure occurs so I can determine
whether it's likely to be due to RFI, a component
failure, or some other cause. I'll also need to know
what L, C, and network selections were in effect at
the time. (The KX1, like the K1 and K2, provide ATU
menu entries that allow you to determine how the tuner
is configured. See the manual for details.) I will
analyze and repair any KX1 that is demonstrated to
have such a problem. But let's discuss it by e-mail
first ;)

I should mention one other possibility. If you have an
antenna that you know presents high RFI to the rig,
but you'd like to use it anyway, or if you just want
to "ruggedize" the KXAT1, you could add a few bypass
capacitors. I would place a very small .01 uF
capacitor from each of the MCU's relay drive pins to
ground. Since relays K1-K3 are so close to the KXAT1's
MCU, you could place capacitors directly across the
relay coil drive pins. The other four relays (K4-K7)
are farther from the MCU, so it would be best to put
the bypass capacitors right at the MCU itself, i.e.
from pins 10, 11, and 12 to pin 5 (ground).

The Elecraft part number for these bypass capacitors
is E530019. Anyone who wants to add these to their
KXAT1 can request seven of them at no charge by
e-mailing [hidden email].

Note that our new T1 ATU has such bypass capacitors on
all relay drive lines (surface-mount capacitors,
pre-installed on the board). We felt that the T1
should have this protection because it is a very
wide-range tuner, capable of operation on 6 meters
where RFI problems can be significantly worse than on
the HF bands. Also, the T1 is rated at 20 watts, and
has been successfully used at twice this level on 40
meters and up (with "backpacker" amps, usually). The
KXAT1, in contrast, is never going to be operated at
high power levels and is only intended to cover 40,
30, and 20 meters. But in extreme cases, it too could
benefit from the extra bypassing.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That sounds a lot like RF getting back into the
> controller in the ATU.
> Handling RF around a tuner is tricky. A whole lot
> depends upon the impedance
> presented by the antenna. The higher the impedance
> (which depends upon the
> electrical length of the wire) the more RF voltage
> and the more easily RF
> voltage can be capacitively coupled into the wrong
> circuits. It doesn't take
> a whole lot of RF to cause the controller to
> misbehave.
>
> Suggest you take a close look at the RF filtering
> provided in the design
> first, to make sure none of it has been bypassed
> accidentally by a solder
> bridge or unsoldered connection. That would include
> the 6V line filter C4,
> RFC1 and C5. If either C4 or C5 isn't grounded, it
> would greatly reduce the
> effectiveness of the filter without interfering with
> the operation of the
> tuner otherwise. A solder bridge across RFC1 would
> have the same effect.
>
> The other critical item is C11 which bypasses one
> side of the relay coils to
> ground for RF.
>
> Unwanted RF feedback usually goes away when the
> power is reduced simply
> because lower power levels reduce the RF voltages
> present.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Just a follow-up to my previous post...  It does not
> always reset from TUN to CAL.  I have seen it reset
> from TUN to other ATU settings like G03 or some
> other
> random fixed ATU state.  
>
> When I use only the internal AA's, I don't see this
> problem happening.  Only on external 12V from 10
> NiMH's.  
>
> But I don't want to have to give up those nice 3dB I
> get from the 12V and 4W vs. 2W!
>
> Thanks,
> Mike N9OHW
>
>

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Hi, Mike:

No, you should *not* be seeing RF feedback delivering power into a good 50
ohm dummy load, external ground or not!

The only other thing that I can think of is whether you are getting any
glitches in the external power supply. A loose connection or something that
interrupts power for too short of a period of time to see can still cause
the controller to "reset". My KX1 has that problem occasionally because I
don't have the right size barrel connector for it. There are two sizes
around that are so close it's not obvious which is which unless one puts the
little barrel into the larger jack. Then wiggling the wire will cause the
connection to be intermittent. I suppose it's possible that noise on the dc
could do it as well. If you have some other power supply that you can
connect temporarily I'd suggest trying that to eliminate anything external
to the KX1 itself.

If those things don't do it, I recommend contacting Wayne directly as he
asked. If something is marginal in the KXAT1 that allows even one unit to
act up for no reason, he'll want to know about it!

Ron AC7AC



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Madden [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:07 PM
To: Ron D'Eau Claire; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] KX1 ATU is resetting from TUN to CAL by itself


Hi Ron and the group,

Thanks for the feedback.  I checked C4, C5, RFC1, and
C11 and they all all have good connections.  I can
make this happen to a 300W 50 ohm dummy load, so could
it still be stray RF from the antenna?

Two other builders reported this problem in April
2005, and below I have copied Wayne's reply.  Any
resolution found?  Is the offer to analyze and repair
still good? :)

Thanks!

Mike, N9OHW




The KX1 should definitely not lose power output or the
KXAT1 change its L-network settings under any normal circumstances. We've
tested the tuner and the rig extensively, and I've never seen this happen.

The first things that come to mind are intermittent
component failures or power supply brownouts that
reset the MCU. However, using the tuner with a very
poor (or non-existent) ground, and/or an antenna that
is close to a half wavelength or a multiple thereof
could also cause trouble. RFI in such cases is a
challenge for almost any ATU. The usual remedies are
(1) better ground counterpoise, (2) adjustment to
antenna length, (3) balun. A 4:1 balun can be quite
effective at reducing high RF voltages that might be
present on the chassis or antenna, in many cases
transforming a difficult match into one that's in
range of the tuner.

If anyone has a KX1 that exhibits a consistent failure
pattern, please contact me directly. I would need to
know exactly how the failure occurs so I can determine
whether it's likely to be due to RFI, a component
failure, or some other cause. I'll also need to know
what L, C, and network selections were in effect at
the time. (The KX1, like the K1 and K2, provide ATU
menu entries that allow you to determine how the tuner
is configured. See the manual for details.) I will
analyze and repair any KX1 that is demonstrated to
have such a problem. But let's discuss it by e-mail
first ;)

I should mention one other possibility. If you have an
antenna that you know presents high RFI to the rig,
but you'd like to use it anyway, or if you just want
to "ruggedize" the KXAT1, you could add a few bypass capacitors. I would
place a very small .01 uF capacitor from each of the MCU's relay drive pins
to ground. Since relays K1-K3 are so close to the KXAT1's MCU, you could
place capacitors directly across the relay coil drive pins. The other four
relays (K4-K7) are farther from the MCU, so it would be best to put the
bypass capacitors right at the MCU itself, i.e. from pins 10, 11, and 12 to
pin 5 (ground).

The Elecraft part number for these bypass capacitors
is E530019. Anyone who wants to add these to their
KXAT1 can request seven of them at no charge by
e-mailing [hidden email].

Note that our new T1 ATU has such bypass capacitors on
all relay drive lines (surface-mount capacitors,
pre-installed on the board). We felt that the T1
should have this protection because it is a very
wide-range tuner, capable of operation on 6 meters
where RFI problems can be significantly worse than on
the HF bands. Also, the T1 is rated at 20 watts, and
has been successfully used at twice this level on 40
meters and up (with "backpacker" amps, usually). The
KXAT1, in contrast, is never going to be operated at
high power levels and is only intended to cover 40,
30, and 20 meters. But in extreme cases, it too could
benefit from the extra bypassing.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That sounds a lot like RF getting back into the
> controller in the ATU.
> Handling RF around a tuner is tricky. A whole lot
> depends upon the impedance
> presented by the antenna. The higher the impedance
> (which depends upon the
> electrical length of the wire) the more RF voltage
> and the more easily RF
> voltage can be capacitively coupled into the wrong
> circuits. It doesn't take
> a whole lot of RF to cause the controller to
> misbehave.
>
> Suggest you take a close look at the RF filtering
> provided in the design
> first, to make sure none of it has been bypassed
> accidentally by a solder
> bridge or unsoldered connection. That would include
> the 6V line filter C4,
> RFC1 and C5. If either C4 or C5 isn't grounded, it
> would greatly reduce the
> effectiveness of the filter without interfering with
> the operation of the
> tuner otherwise. A solder bridge across RFC1 would
> have the same effect.
>
> The other critical item is C11 which bypasses one
> side of the relay coils to
> ground for RF.
>
> Unwanted RF feedback usually goes away when the
> power is reduced simply
> because lower power levels reduce the RF voltages
> present.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Just a follow-up to my previous post...  It does not
> always reset from TUN to CAL.  I have seen it reset
> from TUN to other ATU settings like G03 or some
> other
> random fixed ATU state.
>
> When I use only the internal AA's, I don't see this
> problem happening.  Only on external 12V from 10
> NiMH's.
>
> But I don't want to have to give up those nice 3dB I
> get from the 12V and 4W vs. 2W!
>
> Thanks,
> Mike N9OHW
>
>

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[Michael Madden-3]

Hi Ron and the group,

I took the KX1 out yesterday for more field testing.
This time, I wrapped with a torroid the 6" unshielded
lead from the external battery holder.  The idea here
was that RF was getting into the 6" battery lead and
somehow the dirty DC was tripping the ATU controller.

Well, at first, it seemed like the problem was solved.
 But after about 1 hr of having the KX1 on, I started
getting the problem again.  (The problem with the ATU
switching from TUN to CAL by itself when I start
transmitting.)  This time, I only saw it on 30M.  But
it was intermittent:  when it started happening, I
shut the rig off, turned it back on, switched bands,
and then I wouldn't get it for a while.

Again, I can make this happen when transmitting into a
300W 50 ohm dummy load.  It only happend when I am on
my external battery pack at 4W.  

I went to Halted and got a beefier power cord with a
built-in torroid (from a computer power supply), and I
plan to ruggedize my battery supply.  Perhaps the
dinky leads from the external battery to the KX1
couldn't handle the current?

In any case, the problem still exists.  The only thing
I can do to use the KX1 reliably is to not use my
external battery pack.  

Thanks,
Mike N9OHW

--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, Mike:
>
> No, you should *not* be seeing RF feedback
> delivering power into a good 50
> ohm dummy load, external ground or not!


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[Michael Madden-3]

Hi Ron and the group,

I took the KX1 out yesterday for more field testing.
This time, I wrapped with a torroid the 6" unshielded
lead from the external battery holder.  The idea here
was that RF was getting into the 6" battery lead and
somehow the dirty DC was tripping the ATU controller.

Well, at first, it seemed like the problem was solved.
 But after about 1 hr of having the KX1 on, I started
getting the problem again.  (The problem with the ATU
switching from TUN to CAL by itself when I start
transmitting.)  This time, I only saw it on 30M.  But
it was intermittent:  when it started happening, I
shut the rig off, turned it back on, switched bands,
and then I wouldn't get it for a while.

Again, I can make this happen when transmitting into a
300W 50 ohm dummy load.  It only happend when I am on
my external battery pack at 4W.  

I went to Halted and got a beefier power cord with a
built-in torroid (from a computer power supply), and I
plan to ruggedize my battery supply.  Perhaps the
dinky leads from the external battery to the KX1
couldn't handle the current?

In any case, the problem still exists.  The only thing
I can do to use the KX1 reliably is to not use my
external battery pack.  

Thanks,
Mike N9OHW

--- Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi, Mike:
>
> No, you should *not* be seeing RF feedback
> delivering power into a good 50
> ohm dummy load, external ground or not!


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[David Pratt]

Hello Mike -
I had a similar problem a while ago and Wayne suggested fitting some
bypass capacitors in various places around the processor on the ATU
board. Unfortunately I am unable to get to either the information or the
rig at the moment as the contents of the shack are in storage due to
building repairs.

In my case, during an over while I was transmitting, the KX1 started
retuning the antenna and ended up with a very low power and a high SWR.
Fitting the capacitors as Wayne suggested totally cured the problem.

73

David G4DMP

In a recent message, Michael Madden <[hidden email]> wrote ...

>I took the KX1 out yesterday for more field testing.
>This time, I wrapped with a torroid the 6" unshielded
>lead from the external battery holder.  The idea here
>was that RF was getting into the 6" battery lead and
>somehow the dirty DC was tripping the ATU controller.
>
>Well, at first, it seemed like the problem was solved.
> But after about 1 hr of having the KX1 on, I started
>getting the problem again.  (The problem with the ATU
>switching from TUN to CAL by itself when I start
>transmitting.)  This time, I only saw it on 30M.  But
>it was intermittent:  when it started happening, I
>shut the rig off, turned it back on, switched bands,
>and then I wouldn't get it for a while.

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[Michael Madden-3]

Hi David and the group,

I am on my way to ruling things out as to the source
of the bug I am seeing:

1) I can make it happen with a commercial power supply
and dummy load.  The power supply has nothing homebrew
about it, and I checked that the plug fit correctly
into the KX1.

2) I took the internal batteries out while testing to
rule out that the plug was bad and the power was
intermittently reverting back to the 9V internal.  I
did not see anything reset or power cycle, just the
TUN->CAL bug described earlier.

3) When the rig does automatically go from TUN to CAL
when I transmit, if I turn the rig off, and then turn
it back on, it goes back to TUN, with the correct L
and C values from before the glitch.  

If I purposely turn the ATU to from TUN to CAL and
then turn the rig off and on, it stays in CAL mode, as
expected.  This leads me to believe it is not a
problem with the MCU going to a bogus state, but a
glitch in a relay control line that is causing a relay
to flip.  

4) Similar to 3, when I see it switch from TUN to CAL
on a transmit, and I switch bands, and then switch
back to the original band, the ATU state returns back
to the correct TUN state with the correct L and C
values.

5) I re-soldered all the caps on the ATU board and any
other connections that looked suspect.  No change.

My next step is to try the add'l bypass caps on the
relay control lines, as Wayne suggested.  I'm leaving
that till last to see if I can pinpoint the cause of
the problem before adding extra hardware to mask it.  

David, G4DMP, thanks for your feedback on the good
result from adding the bypass caps.  That encourages
me that this will solve (mask) the problem.

Thanks to all who sent me suggestions so far.

73,
Mike N9OHW

--- David Pratt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Mike -
> I had a similar problem a while ago and Wayne
> suggested fitting some
> bypass capacitors in various places around the
> processor on the ATU
> board. Unfortunately I am unable to get to either
> the information or the
> rig at the moment as the contents of the shack are
> in storage due to
> building repairs.
>
> In my case, during an over while I was transmitting,
> the KX1 started
> retuning the antenna and ended up with a very low
> power and a high SWR.
> Fitting the capacitors as Wayne suggested totally
> cured the problem.
>
> 73
>
> David G4DMP
>
> In a recent message, Michael Madden
> <[hidden email]> wrote ...
> >I took the KX1 out yesterday for more field
> testing.
> >This time, I wrapped with a torroid the 6"
> unshielded
> >lead from the external battery holder.  The idea
> here
> >was that RF was getting into the 6" battery lead
> and
> >somehow the dirty DC was tripping the ATU
> controller.
> >
> >Well, at first, it seemed like the problem was
> solved.
> > But after about 1 hr of having the KX1 on, I
> started
> >getting the problem again.  (The problem with the
> ATU
> >switching from TUN to CAL by itself when I start
> >transmitting.)  This time, I only saw it on 30M.
> But
> >it was intermittent:  when it started happening, I
> >shut the rig off, turned it back on, switched
> bands,
> >and then I wouldn't get it for a while.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com