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[KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

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gmaxwell

[KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

I am quite excited by the KX3's overall design and form-factor but there were a couple points I found surprisingly disappointing:

It sounds like people are saying that getting I/Q interface will require a soundcard. Why not simply make a USB connection available that gives an external SDR access to the IF ADC/DAC? I'd assume the internal converters will be high quality and better matched electrically than any analog soundcard interface people are likely to use. Even if the converters run at an odd sampling rate SDR software could easily be adapted.

Likewise, I was surprised at the lack of a usb host interface for plugging in a keyboard to use instead of a paddle. There is a pretty large population of folks who enjoy using digital modes (including CW) who aren't proficient with the paddle, and the various non-cw modes offer character sets which far broader than than cw. USB keyboard of diverse form-factors are widely and cheaply available.

Perhaps there are some plans that I've missed?

Tony Estep

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 8:10 AM, gmaxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> ...Why not simply make a USB connection available that gives an
> external SDR access to the IF...

=========
IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC, as is found on the back
of the K3. Like many others on this list, I feed the IF output from that
into an external SDR (I'm using LP-Pan, but I also have tried a Flex 1500
and a Softrock). Of course, that too requires a sound card after the
down-conversion done by the SDR. Those of us who have been using this setup
are excited about getting direct I-Q output from the receiver.

There's zero to be gained by having an outboard SDR box that would duplicate
the down-conversion circuits in the KX3. My bet is that Elecraft would do a
better job with that circuitry than today's SDR makers. And the output of
that goes to a sound card anyway, whether it's inside your SDR or in a
separate box or in your computer. The sound-card circuitry inside today's
commercially available SDRs is nothing special and in many cases is no
better than what's already inside your computer.

Tony KT0NY

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gmaxwell

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

Tony Estep wrote

IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,

No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for example).

I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to add noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and leave me with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it. (What netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of spurious tones from the computer?)

Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB client connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.

There's zero to be gained by having an outboard SDR box that would duplicate
the down-conversion circuits in the KX3. My bet is that Elecraft would do a
better job with that circuitry than today's SDR makers.

Exactly.

Tony Estep

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:15 AM, gmaxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> > There's zero to be gained by having an outboard SDR box that would
> > duplicate
> > the down-conversion circuits in the KX3. My bet is that Elecraft would do
> > a
> > better job with that circuitry than today's SDR makers.
> >
>
> Exactly.
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
That does not seem reasonable to me.
Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.

Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.

Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
- how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
buttons!

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:

> Tony Estep wrote:
>> IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,
>>
> No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for example).
>
> I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to add
> noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and leave me
> with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it. (What
> netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of
> spurious tones from the computer?)
>
> Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB client
> connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be
> [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.
>
>

gmaxwell

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Tony Estep

Tony Estep wrote

Which is why you don't want the I-Q created by an outboard box, you want to
get it out of the KX3.

I think you may be fixated on an initial misreading of my message. I never said I wanted I/Q created by an outboard box.

I said I wanted access to the digitized quadrature signal of the IF which the KX3 is using internally, instead of an analog quadrature signal which I'm going to have to have additional hardware to digitize (with accompanying additional hardware, and/or issues with noise, DC offsets, and high pass filters which are common on sound hardware which leave an annoying hole right in the middle of the band)

gmaxwell

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don Wilhelm-4 wrote

I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
That does not seem reasonable to me.
Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
for it?

Holy crap. I just want the digital signal that the radio is already digitizing. I don't want "soundcard functionality" just the signal that is already there.

I'm going to unsubscribe now. I was interested in a radio, not joining a cult.

Tony Estep

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
> That does not seem reasonable to me.
>
=========
I agree, it's not. But actually the request was for the IF to come out, so
that the I-Q could be generated twice, once by the KX3 and once by an
outboard SDR. This seems even more unreasonable.

I am excited by the prospect of I-Q coming out of the KX3 and can't wait to
get one just as it has been described.

Tony KT0NY

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Christian KJ4VPK

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

? If the SDR in the KX3 is presenting analog stereo I/Q why can't this be simply USB to make the KX3 look like an external sound card to present the same I/Q as an all digital path to the USB host (PC). No need for outboard SDR, we aren't talking about IF.

73,
Christian
KJ4VPK

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Estep
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:33 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 9:15 AM, gmaxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

============
Which is why you don't want the I-Q created by an outboard box, you want to
get it out of the KX3. And that's just what the Elecrafters have done for us
in the KX3's design, in response to requests from those who now have
outboard SDR boxes.

Tony KT0NY

--
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Christian KJ4VPK

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

Sound card USB chips are tiny... Plenty of them, too. Volume cost is very very low, too. Making it an optional feature if it really breaks the bank..

Not needing shielded analog cables seems like a beautiful thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:55 AM
To: gmaxwell
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
That does not seem reasonable to me.
Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.

Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.

Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
- how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
buttons!

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:

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Phil Hystad-3

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

Actually, I can see how Elecraft might consider making their own separately boxed sound card interface to do what the original requestor wanted to do. That is, take in the I/Q signal, digitize via the sound card, and present a USB interfaced digital number stream to the computer.

So, Elecraft can do this but would they. I am thinking if they are smart about business they would not bother. I mean, who is going to buy this "box" when they have a sound card already built into their computer that would likely do the same job. Or, there are a myriad of other external high-quality sound cards you can buy to do this job.

Or, am I missing something -- easy to miss something because I am not sure I understood the purpose in the original question.

Personally, I want my KX3 just the way that Eric and Wayne make it since they seem to be smart about this sort of thing.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Christian KJ4VPK wrote:

> Sound card USB chips are tiny... Plenty of them, too. Volume cost is very very low, too. Making it an optional feature if it really breaks the bank..
>
> Not needing shielded analog cables seems like a beautiful thing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:55 AM
> To: gmaxwell
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input
>
> I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
> That does not seem reasonable to me.
> Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
> for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
> portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
> display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.
>
> Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
> have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.
>
> Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
> are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
> - how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
> buttons!
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:
>> Tony Estep wrote:
>>> IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,
>>>
>> No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for example).
>>
>> I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to add
>> noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and leave me
>> with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it. (What
>> netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of
>> spurious tones from the computer?)
>>
>> Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB client
>> connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be
>> [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Christian KJ4VPK

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

Other than ease of use and less complexity for end users, noise in the analog cable which can interfere with weak signal work. It could also integrate rig control like other devices have. One cable to rule them all. Makes for a beautiful, very effective and extremely user friendly configuration.

(To me USB charging would be cool but at the bottom of the list if at all; I would prefer to not tax the battery on a laptop)

73,
Christian
KJ4VPK

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Hystad
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 11:37 AM
To: Christian KJ4VPK
Cc: [hidden email]; gmaxwell; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

Actually, I can see how Elecraft might consider making their own separately boxed sound card interface to do what the original requestor wanted to do. That is, take in the I/Q signal, digitize via the sound card, and present a USB interfaced digital number stream to the computer.

So, Elecraft can do this but would they. I am thinking if they are smart about business they would not bother. I mean, who is going to buy this "box" when they have a sound card already built into their computer that would likely do the same job. Or, there are a myriad of other external high-quality sound cards you can buy to do this job.

Or, am I missing something -- easy to miss something because I am not sure I understood the purpose in the original question.

Personally, I want my KX3 just the way that Eric and Wayne make it since they seem to be smart about this sort of thing.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Christian KJ4VPK wrote:

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Phil,

Is there an existing software application that would accept such a
digital stream over USB?
Yes, I know that is what logically happens when using a USB soundcard,
but all the applications I know about require that the soundcard be
defined - I for one am not up to writing my own application to process
that digital stream.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2011 11:37 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Actually, I can see how Elecraft might consider making their own separately boxed sound card interface to do what the original requestor wanted to do. That is, take in the I/Q signal, digitize via the sound card, and present a USB interfaced digital number stream to the computer.
>
> So, Elecraft can do this but would they. I am thinking if they are smart about business they would not bother. I mean, who is going to buy this "box" when they have a sound card already built into their computer that would likely do the same job. Or, there are a myriad of other external high-quality sound cards you can buy to do this job.
>
> Or, am I missing something -- easy to miss something because I am not sure I understood the purpose in the original question.
>
> Personally, I want my KX3 just the way that Eric and Wayne make it since they seem to be smart about this sort of thing.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
>
>
> On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Christian KJ4VPK wrote:
>
>> Sound card USB chips are tiny... Plenty of them, too. Volume cost is very very low, too. Making it an optional feature if it really breaks the bank..
>>
>> Not needing shielded analog cables seems like a beautiful thing.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:55 AM
>> To: gmaxwell
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input
>>
>> I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
>> That does not seem reasonable to me.
>> Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
>> for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
>> portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
>> display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.
>>
>> Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
>> have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.
>>
>> Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
>> are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
>> - how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
>> buttons!
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:
>>> Tony Estep wrote:
>>>> IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,
>>>>
>>> No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for example).
>>>
>>> I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to add
>>> noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and leave me
>>> with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it. (What
>>> netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of
>>> spurious tones from the computer?)
>>>
>>> Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB client
>>> connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be
>>> [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Christian KJ4VPK

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

It looks like a soundcard to a PC. Plug and play. Same to software on host as if you had analog cables into an onboard sound card. You just gain some additional goesintas and goesoutas over which the I/Q are presented. Think of it like a SignaLink without the box. If done correctly it shouldn't even additional require drivers to be installed on somewhat recent OS.

73,
Christian
KJ4VPK

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 11:52 AM
To: Phil Hystad
Cc: Christian KJ4VPK; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

Phil,

Is there an existing software application that would accept such a
digital stream over USB?
Yes, I know that is what logically happens when using a USB soundcard,
but all the applications I know about require that the soundcard be
defined - I for one am not up to writing my own application to process
that digital stream.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2011 11:37 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:

Phil Hystad-3

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,

Actually, processing the digital stream would be my only interest. My software of choice is Mathematica and this would be to experiment with various DSP algorithms, filters, and so on. As far as using the KX3 as a radio, I prefer using the radio -- no computers involved. I am not interested in software interfaces such as PowerSDR. But, I would use the sound card on my Mac computer and I would not bother buying an external sound card -- well, actually I already have two external sound cards but I would still use the Mac directly.

My comment is mostly about the original post as I do not understand what they wanted to do.

73, phil, K7PEH

On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Phil,
>
> Is there an existing software application that would accept such a digital stream over USB?
> Yes, I know that is what logically happens when using a USB soundcard, but all the applications I know about require that the soundcard be defined - I for one am not up to writing my own application to process that digital stream.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/19/2011 11:37 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
>> Actually, I can see how Elecraft might consider making their own separately boxed sound card interface to do what the original requestor wanted to do. That is, take in the I/Q signal, digitize via the sound card, and present a USB interfaced digital number stream to the computer.
>>
>> So, Elecraft can do this but would they. I am thinking if they are smart about business they would not bother. I mean, who is going to buy this "box" when they have a sound card already built into their computer that would likely do the same job. Or, there are a myriad of other external high-quality sound cards you can buy to do this job.
>>
>> Or, am I missing something -- easy to miss something because I am not sure I understood the purpose in the original question.
>>
>> Personally, I want my KX3 just the way that Eric and Wayne make it since they seem to be smart about this sort of thing.
>>
>> 73, phil, K7PEH
>>
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Christian KJ4VPK wrote:
>>
>>> Sound card USB chips are tiny... Plenty of them, too. Volume cost is very very low, too. Making it an optional feature if it really breaks the bank..
>>>
>>> Not needing shielded analog cables seems like a beautiful thing.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Don Wilhelm
>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:55 AM
>>> To: gmaxwell
>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input
>>>
>>> I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the KX3.
>>> That does not seem reasonable to me.
>>> Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
>>> for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
>>> portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
>>> display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.
>>>
>>> Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
>>> have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.
>>>
>>> Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
>>> are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
>>> - how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
>>> buttons!
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:
>>>> Tony Estep wrote:
>>>>> IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,
>>>>>
>>>> No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for example).
>>>>
>>>> I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to add
>>>> noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and leave me
>>>> with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it. (What
>>>> netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of
>>>> spurious tones from the computer?)
>>>>
>>>> Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB client
>>>> connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be
>>>> [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>

Thomas Horsten

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

The digital stream could be provided in the form of a (logical) USB sound
card inside the K3, there is no need for a physical sound card as most USB
device controllers support defining your own endpoints etc. in the
software/firmware.

73, Thomas M0TRN

On 19 August 2011 16:52, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Phil,
>
> Is there an existing software application that would accept such a
> digital stream over USB?
> Yes, I know that is what logically happens when using a USB soundcard,
> but all the applications I know about require that the soundcard be
> defined - I for one am not up to writing my own application to process
> that digital stream.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/19/2011 11:37 AM, Phil Hystad wrote:
> > Actually, I can see how Elecraft might consider making their own
> separately boxed sound card interface to do what the original requestor
> wanted to do. That is, take in the I/Q signal, digitize via the sound card,
> and present a USB interfaced digital number stream to the computer.
> >
> > So, Elecraft can do this but would they. I am thinking if they are smart
> about business they would not bother. I mean, who is going to buy this
> "box" when they have a sound card already built into their computer that
> would likely do the same job. Or, there are a myriad of other external
> high-quality sound cards you can buy to do this job.
> >
> > Or, am I missing something -- easy to miss something because I am not
> sure I understood the purpose in the original question.
> >
> > Personally, I want my KX3 just the way that Eric and Wayne make it since
> they seem to be smart about this sort of thing.
> >
> > 73, phil, K7PEH
> >
> >
> > On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Christian KJ4VPK wrote:
> >
> >> Sound card USB chips are tiny... Plenty of them, too. Volume cost is
> very very low, too. Making it an optional feature if it really breaks the
> bank..
> >>
> >> Not needing shielded analog cables seems like a beautiful thing.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Don Wilhelm
> >> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 10:55 AM
> >> To: gmaxwell
> >> Cc: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input
> >>
> >> I believe what you are asking for means full soundcard function in the
> KX3.
> >> That does not seem reasonable to me.
> >> Why should others who do not desire that internal function have to pay
> >> for it? There are many (I would even say most) who want the KX3 for
> >> portable use (without dragging along a computer for a panadapter
> >> display), and that is its major design point as far as I can determine.
> >>
> >> Your "trickle charge" suggestion means a voltage booster circuit would
> >> have to be added, and many of them generate RF hash.
> >>
> >> Besides, I don't think there is room inside the KX3 for those things you
> >> are asking. We are approaching the "Dick Tracy wrist radio" in the KX3
> >> - how much smaller can it get? Many complain about the size of the K3
> >> buttons!
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 8/19/2011 10:15 AM, gmaxwell wrote:
> >>> Tony Estep wrote:
> >>>> IF output connected over USB? Maybe you mean a BNC,
> >>>>
> >>> No. I mean USB, as in digital output, as is found on the USRP (for
> example).
> >>>
> >>> I see no attraction in yet another analog step that is only going to
> add
> >>> noise and interference, complicate PTT and control signaling, and
> leave me
> >>> with a mess of more cables and boxes in order to interconnect it.
> (What
> >>> netbook has stereo inputs? what netbook has inputs that aren't full of
> >>> spurious tones from the computer?)
> >>>
> >>> Conceivably the KX3 could be trickle charged (500ma at 5v) via a USB
> client
> >>> connection, meaning a complete computer-enabled mobile station could be
> >>> [antenna]-[kx3]-[netbook]-[power] which would be clean indeed.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
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> >>
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> >>
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> > ______________________________________________________________
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Don,

Second time around. I don't think I understood your question the first time. The external sound card appears as a sound card to the computer so that the digital stream from the external sound card, over the USB interface, is presented using the same audio interface software in the computer as an internal sound card would use. In the case of my Mac, that would be the Core Audio framework that is used. My use of Mathematica though interfaces to data using the audio software interface and it does not krack the USB protocol directly.

phil

On Aug 19, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Edward R Cole

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by gmaxwell

HUGE FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE, guys!!!

The originator wanted a IF, shorthand for interface. He should have
written it I/F and then all this extraneous e-mail would have been avoided.

The KX3, like the K3 is a SDR, meaning it has a IQ mixer to produce
the quadrature data streams for the internal micro-processor to use
for recovering modulation of multiple kinds of modes. He is just
wanting access at the digital level to the IQ data for use outside
the radio. This is what is not available in the K3 design.

I understand the K3 was designed several years ago and wasn't
intended to run anything but Elecraft's proprietory sw. But times
they do change - its 2011 and a whole lot is changing on the SDR
scene if you really look. What some of us are asking is for it to be
able to run other sw outside the box. It should not be that
complicated to provide a digital port for exporting the IQ signal
pair to an external computer. No body wants more soundcards...the
request is exactly to avoid them.

The other wish for a keyboard port would be nice for a lot of us that
might use the KX3 for CW and internally supported DATA modes (Psk,
RTTY are a couple that come to mind). I haven't read up on details
that are out on the KX3, but now seems a good time to get any last
minute design wishes expressed (for a radio going into production in 5-mo.).
-----------------
I am still on the fence on what direction I want to go regarding the
KX3. I have a FT-817 which was bought expressly for use as a 144-MHz
IF for portable mw operations. It also can operate on ham
satellites, though not crossband duplex, which is desirable. I may
decide to sell off my FT-817 and some other stuff to raise cash for a
KX3+2m transverter (embedded would be a nicety). But I l already
have a 144-28 transverter for using my SDR-IQ, which can be used with
the KX3. Only problem is it outputs 20mw for mw transverter I/F, so
an upgrade would be needed for 5w. I am assuming the KX3 will have a
transverter I/F.

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
======================================

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Tony Estep

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Edward R. Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The originator wanted a IF, shorthand for interface. He should have
> written it I/F....

Ahhhhh, you're right, Ed!

Tony KT0NY
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Jessie Oberreuter-2

Re: [KX3] ADC/DAC access, keyer input

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

Yes, the I/Q data is already in digital form inside the KX3, so -- in
theory -- it should be easy to just pump it to the outside world in
digital form. The challenges are with the standards for that transfer.
If you could accept real-time digital data at the same speed the DSP
is running at (say, via an optical port), this would be a no-brainer.
Were such a protocol common-place, Elecraft may well have used it.
Unfortunately, it isn't. USB, ethernet, S/PDIF, etc. all have some
sort of data framing, which means the KX3 would need to have additional
buffer and protocol circuitry to negotiate the link and then frame the
otherwise real-time I/Q data into packets that would then need to be
transfered at considerably higher than audio rates to prevent drop-outs.
As a designer, you have three choices: you can create your own ad-hoc
lossless real-time digital protocol that almost no one will be able to
use, you can dramatically increase costs and complexity by implementing to
a more complex standard that many people still won't be able to use, or
you can take advantage of a commonly available protocol for transfering
real-time audio data that's perfectly adequate for the expected
applications: analog stereo.

On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Edward R. Cole wrote:

> HUGE FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE, guys!!!
>
> The originator wanted a IF, shorthand for interface. He should have
> written it I/F and then all this extraneous e-mail would have been avoided.
>
> The KX3, like the K3 is a SDR, meaning it has a IQ mixer to produce
> the quadrature data streams for the internal micro-processor to use
> for recovering modulation of multiple kinds of modes. He is just
> wanting access at the digital level to the IQ data for use outside
> the radio. This is what is not available in the K3 design.
>
> I understand the K3 was designed several years ago and wasn't
> intended to run anything but Elecraft's proprietory sw. But times
> they do change - its 2011 and a whole lot is changing on the SDR
> scene if you really look. What some of us are asking is for it to be
> able to run other sw outside the box. It should not be that
> complicated to provide a digital port for exporting the IQ signal
> pair to an external computer. No body wants more soundcards...the
> request is exactly to avoid them.
>
> The other wish for a keyboard port would be nice for a lot of us that
> might use the KX3 for CW and internally supported DATA modes (Psk,
> RTTY are a couple that come to mind). I haven't read up on details
> that are out on the KX3, but now seems a good time to get any last
> minute design wishes expressed (for a radio going into production in 5-mo.).
> -----------------
> I am still on the fence on what direction I want to go regarding the
> KX3. I have a FT-817 which was bought expressly for use as a 144-MHz
> IF for portable mw operations. It also can operate on ham
> satellites, though not crossband duplex, which is desirable. I may
> decide to sell off my FT-817 and some other stuff to raise cash for a
> KX3+2m transverter (embedded would be a nicety). But I l already
> have a 144-28 transverter for using my SDR-IQ, which can be used with
> the KX3. Only problem is it outputs 20mw for mw transverter I/F, so
> an upgrade would be needed for 5w. I am assuming the KX3 will have a
> transverter I/F.
>
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
> ======================================
> BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
> EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-?
> DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
> ======================================
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>