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KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

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IZ4MJP.com

KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

Hi,
i own a KX3 since June 2012 (one of the first arrived in Italy) .
I mainly use my KX3 in Phone and CW modes.

Some weeks ago i've bought a SignaLink USB II interface + KX3 cables.

After the initial setup all worked fine in PSK31 and RTTY but i have some doubts about the right Mode to use: USB, AFSK A or DATA A

With AFSK A mode the bandwith is too narrow (the waterfall of MixW shows only 300 Hz more/less) so is usefull only when i've centered the RTTY signal of the correspondance.
Not usefull during normal DX operation (IMHO).

Data A is also OK but i can't decode RTTY (only PSKxx modes). In this Mode i could narrow the BW but there is no way to decode RTTY correctly.

USB is the Mode i currently use with RTTY but i think is not the right Mode for digital communication (i have to manually disable compression and TX Eq. every time and setup ALC levels).

I've read and re-read the user manual at Page 18 but i not understand why i can't decode RTTY.

So please can someone help me to resolve the problem?

Another question: is there a way to widen the BandWith in AFSK-A Mode ? (my display show 0,50 Max).

My KX3 is equipped of the roofing filters.

Many thanks for any help.

73
Franco, IZ4MJP

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vk2rq

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

Use DATA-A mode.

Normally DATA-A modfe defaults to upper sideband, whereas the convention for RTTY seems to be lower sideband. This means that the RTTY signals wil lappear "inverted" and this may explain why you have problems to decode the RTTY.

The best solution is to select RTTY-reverse in your RTTY program, so that the software will know to invert the signal as it decodes it. Otherwise, it is possible to put the KX3 in DATA-A REV mode in order to invert the signal, but this may cause you problems later if you try to decode other asymetric digital signals (such as MFSK).

AFSK-A mode is designed to by used only with RTTY, and uses the KX3 to do narrow DSP filtering, as you have seen. If you want a wider bandwidth, use DATA-A mode, and let your digital mode software do any required DSP filtering itself.

In general, USB mode should not be used for digital modes at all (of course it can be made to work, with some caveats like those you already mentioned, but it's generally best to steer clear of it).

73, Matt VK2RQ

On 11/06/2013, at 9:12 PM, "IZ4MJP.com" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> i own a KX3 since June 2012 (one of the first arrived in Italy) .
> I mainly use my KX3 in Phone and CW modes.
>
> Some weeks ago i've bought a SignaLink USB II interface + KX3 cables.
>
> After the initial setup all worked fine in PSK31 and RTTY but i have some doubts about the right Mode to use: USB, AFSK A or DATA A
>
> With AFSK A mode the bandwith is too narrow (the waterfall of MixW shows only 300 Hz more/less) so is usefull only when i've centered the RTTY signal of the correspondance.
> Not usefull during normal DX operation (IMHO).
>
> Data A is also OK but i can't decode RTTY (only PSKxx modes). In this Mode i could narrow the BW but there is no way to decode RTTY correctly.
>
> USB is the Mode i currently use with RTTY but i think is not the right Mode for digital communication (i have to manually disable compression and TX Eq. every time and setup ALC levels).
>
> I've read and re-read the user manual at Page 18 but i not understand why i can't decode RTTY.
>
> So please can someone help me to resolve the problem?
>
> Another question: is there a way to widen the BandWith in AFSK-A Mode ? (my display show 0,50 Max).
>
> My KX3 is equipped of the roofing filters.
>
> Many thanks for any help.
>
> 73
> Franco, IZ4MJP
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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IZ4MJP.com

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

Hello Mat.
Many thanks for the answer.

I've already tried with RTTY-R but with no luck. In USB Mode or ASFK A no problem at all with the same settings.

I'll give a try using MMTTY (maybe MixW 3.xx doesn't love DATA-A, hi hi).

73
Franco, IZ4MJP

Il giorno 11/giu/2013, alle ore 13:42, Matt VK2RQ <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Use DATA-A mode.
>
> Normally DATA-A modfe defaults to upper sideband, whereas the convention for RTTY seems to be lower sideband. This means that the RTTY signals wil lappear "inverted" and this may explain why you have problems to decode the RTTY.
>
> The best solution is to select RTTY-reverse in your RTTY program, so that the software will know to invert the signal as it decodes it. Otherwise, it is possible to put the KX3 in DATA-A REV mode in order to invert the signal, but this may cause you problems later if you try to decode other asymetric digital signals (such as MFSK).
>
> AFSK-A mode is designed to by used only with RTTY, and uses the KX3 to do narrow DSP filtering, as you have seen. If you want a wider bandwidth, use DATA-A mode, and let your digital mode software do any required DSP filtering itself.
>
> In general, USB mode should not be used for digital modes at all (of course it can be made to work, with some caveats like those you already mentioned, but it's generally best to steer clear of it).
>
> 73, Matt VK2RQ
>
> On 11/06/2013, at 9:12 PM, "IZ4MJP.com" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> i own a KX3 since June 2012 (one of the first arrived in Italy) .
>> I mainly use my KX3 in Phone and CW modes.
>>
>> Some weeks ago i've bought a SignaLink USB II interface + KX3 cables.
>>
>> After the initial setup all worked fine in PSK31 and RTTY but i have some doubts about the right Mode to use: USB, AFSK A or DATA A
>>
>> With AFSK A mode the bandwith is too narrow (the waterfall of MixW shows only 300 Hz more/less) so is usefull only when i've centered the RTTY signal of the correspondance.
>> Not usefull during normal DX operation (IMHO).
>>
>> Data A is also OK but i can't decode RTTY (only PSKxx modes). In this Mode i could narrow the BW but there is no way to decode RTTY correctly.
>>
>> USB is the Mode i currently use with RTTY but i think is not the right Mode for digital communication (i have to manually disable compression and TX Eq. every time and setup ALC levels).
>>
>> I've read and re-read the user manual at Page 18 but i not understand why i can't decode RTTY.
>>
>> So please can someone help me to resolve the problem?
>>
>> Another question: is there a way to widen the BandWith in AFSK-A Mode ? (my display show 0,50 Max).
>>
>> My KX3 is equipped of the roofing filters.
>>
>> Many thanks for any help.
>>
>> 73
>> Franco, IZ4MJP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

vk2rq

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

I would recommend Fldigi software for digital modes:
http://www.w1hkj.com/Fldigi.html

It seems very strange that you can decode ok using USB or AFSK-A, but have problems with DATA-A mode. Do you observe any differences on the waterfall between these modes?

73,
Matt VK2RQ

On 12/06/2013, at 2:02 AM, "IZ4MJP.com" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Mat.
> Many thanks for the answer.
>
> I've already tried with RTTY-R but with no luck. In USB Mode or ASFK A no problem at all with the same settings.
>
> I'll give a try using MMTTY (maybe MixW 3.xx doesn't love DATA-A, hi hi).
>
> 73
> Franco, IZ4MJP
>
>
>
> Il giorno 11/giu/2013, alle ore 13:42, Matt VK2RQ <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
>> Use DATA-A mode.
>>
>> Normally DATA-A modfe defaults to upper sideband, whereas the convention for RTTY seems to be lower sideband. This means that the RTTY signals wil lappear "inverted" and this may explain why you have problems to decode the RTTY.
>>
>> The best solution is to select RTTY-reverse in your RTTY program, so that the software will know to invert the signal as it decodes it. Otherwise, it is possible to put the KX3 in DATA-A REV mode in order to invert the signal, but this may cause you problems later if you try to decode other asymetric digital signals (such as MFSK).
>>
>> AFSK-A mode is designed to by used only with RTTY, and uses the KX3 to do narrow DSP filtering, as you have seen. If you want a wider bandwidth, use DATA-A mode, and let your digital mode software do any required DSP filtering itself.
>>
>> In general, USB mode should not be used for digital modes at all (of course it can be made to work, with some caveats like those you already mentioned, but it's generally best to steer clear of it).
>>
>> 73, Matt VK2RQ
>>
>> On 11/06/2013, at 9:12 PM, "IZ4MJP.com" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> i own a KX3 since June 2012 (one of the first arrived in Italy) .
>>> I mainly use my KX3 in Phone and CW modes.
>>>
>>> Some weeks ago i've bought a SignaLink USB II interface + KX3 cables.
>>>
>>> After the initial setup all worked fine in PSK31 and RTTY but i have some doubts about the right Mode to use: USB, AFSK A or DATA A
>>>
>>> With AFSK A mode the bandwith is too narrow (the waterfall of MixW shows only 300 Hz more/less) so is usefull only when i've centered the RTTY signal of the correspondance.
>>> Not usefull during normal DX operation (IMHO).
>>>
>>> Data A is also OK but i can't decode RTTY (only PSKxx modes). In this Mode i could narrow the BW but there is no way to decode RTTY correctly.
>>>
>>> USB is the Mode i currently use with RTTY but i think is not the right Mode for digital communication (i have to manually disable compression and TX Eq. every time and setup ALC levels).
>>>
>>> I've read and re-read the user manual at Page 18 but i not understand why i can't decode RTTY.
>>>
>>> So please can someone help me to resolve the problem?
>>>
>>> Another question: is there a way to widen the BandWith in AFSK-A Mode ? (my display show 0,50 Max).
>>>
>>> My KX3 is equipped of the roofing filters.
>>>
>>> Many thanks for any help.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Franco, IZ4MJP
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

In reply to this post by IZ4MJP.com

Franco,

Have you tried setting MixW to RTTY normal and setting the K3 DATA A
mode to reverse? DATA A is normally LSB, if you hold ALT (left side of
MODE button) it will go to USB.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/11/2013 12:02 PM, IZ4MJP.com wrote:
> Hello Mat.
> Many thanks for the answer.
>
> I've already tried with RTTY-R but with no luck. In USB Mode or ASFK A no problem at all with the same settings.
>
> I'll give a try using MMTTY (maybe MixW 3.xx doesn't love DATA-A, hi hi).
>
>

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Richard Ferch

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

In reply to this post by IZ4MJP.com

Actually, Don, DATA A is upper sideband. AFSK A and FSK D are lower
sideband.

I believe the problem is that MixW (or some versions of MixW, at least)
treats all of the K3's data modes are the same; I believe it treats them
the same as the Kenwood FSK mode, i.e. as lower sideband. This would
work correctly with AFSK A and FSK D, but not with DATA A. Switching to
DATA A-REV would not help, because MixW would then think the radio is in
USB (Kenwood's FSK-R) when it is actually in lower sideband. When the K3
is in USB (voice mode) as distinct from DATA A, MixW gets it right.

You can always force MixW to use the correct sideband by changing its
sideband control from Auto to manual control: USB or LSB, depending on
which sub-mode you are using.

There is another potential problem with data modes as well, and that is
accurate reporting of frequencies. In AFSK A and FSK D, the K3 dial
displays the mark frequency, in agreement with standard amateur
convention. My recollection is that MixW expects this, in agreement with
the Kenwood FSK mode. Apart from a possible 85 Hz offset (I believe MixW
logs the center frequency, not the mark frequency), this is correct in
the K3's AFSK A and FSK D, but incorrect in DATA A, where the correct
frequency is found by adding the audio mark pitch to the displayed
(suppressed carrier) frequency (as in USB).

MixW is not the only program that has trouble with the K3's data modes.
I believe Fldigi has similar problems. Using RigCAT, depending on what
is in your rig control .xml file you can persuade Fldigi to treat the
K3's data modes either as USB (correct for DATA A) or as LSB (correct
for AFSK A), but not both. I believe there may be similar problems with
frequency offsets (correct either for DATA A or for AFSK A, but not for
both).

As for MMTTY, it assumes the radio is in lower sideband (correct for FSK
D and AFSK A). If you use DATA A with MMTTY, you have to press MMTTY's
Reverse button. You can also tell MMTTY whether to use a frequency
offset (yes for DATA A, no for FSK D and AFSK A).

N1MM Logger understands the K3's various data submodes correctly as far
as the sideband is concerned, but you still have to control whether or
not it applies an offset by using a configuration switch.

73,
Rich VE3KI

Don W3FPR wrote:

> Franco,
>
> Have you tried setting MixW to RTTY normal and setting the K3 DATA A
> mode to reverse? DATA A is normally LSB, if you hold ALT (left side of
> MODE button) it will go to USB.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/11/2013 12:02 PM, IZ4MJP.com wrote:
>> Hello Mat.
>> Many thanks for the answer.
>>
>> I've already tried with RTTY-R but with no luck. In USB Mode or ASFK A no problem \
>> at all with the same settings.
>> I'll give a try using MMTTY (maybe MixW 3.xx doesn't love DATA-A, hi hi).
>>
>>

Dave B

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

In reply to this post by IZ4MJP.com

On 11 Jun 2013 at 11:31, [hidden email] wrote:

> Message: 20
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help
>
> Use DATA-A mode.
>

Snipped

>
> In general, USB mode should not be used for digital modes at all (of
> course it can be made to work, with some caveats like those you
> already mentioned, but it's generally best to steer clear of it).
>
> 73, Matt VK2RQ

Sorry, I beg to differ.

USB is the default standard on all bands/frequencies for PC/souncard
based digimodes. It's just heck of a lot easier to let the software
handle any needed inversion for RTTY or whatever.

Plus, if your software doesn't do the needed math to show the "RF signal
frequency" on a waterfall, just the audio frequency, then it's a lot
easier for the wetware behind the eyes to handle too.

The common use of LSB for voiced/phone below 10MHz was an artifiact
caused by some would say "sloppy design" in early commercialy made Ham
SSB rigs, that used crystal filters and simple mixing (a legacy from AM
designs) It was just cheaper for them to engineer them that way.

There is no reason on earth these days why you *NEED* to use LSB for
PC/Soundcard based digimodes. (Or any other mode, it's just what
everyone got used to with voice mode. Few if any commercial services use
LSB at all.)

73 & Flame suit on! :)

Dave G0WBX.

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

I would like to differ with Dave and say that DATA A should be used for
soundcard digital modes rather than using a SSB mode on the K3 and KX3
(may not apply to other brand transceivers). DATA A is really a SSB mode.
The advantage are that compression is turned off, and the RX EQ is set
flat, and for the K3 - if the Line In input is used, the switch is
automatic once set up, no switching cables or fussing with the menu to
select the proper input.

Yes, DATA A defaults to USB, and the proper use of many data mode
applications expect that.
The only "problem" is that the RTTY convention is to use LSB, so if the
software application expects LSB when set for RTTY, then you may have to
switch sidebands with a hold of the ALT button. Whether the software
will do that automatically for you is application dependent.

The alternative for RTTY is to use the MMTTY software and on the KX3/K3
use AFSK A rather than using a waterfall type software application to
run RTTY - AFSK A defaults to LSB which is the RTTY convention. With
MMTTY, one tunes to the signal with the VFO knob just like the older
users of RTTY had to do when there was no waterfall displays to click on.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/12/2013 8:57 AM, Dave B wrote:

> On 11 Jun 2013 at 11:31, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Message: 20
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help
>>
>> Use DATA-A mode.
>>
> Snipped
>
>> In general, USB mode should not be used for digital modes at all (of
>> course it can be made to work, with some caveats like those you
>> already mentioned, but it's generally best to steer clear of it).
>>
>> 73, Matt VK2RQ
> Sorry, I beg to differ.
>
> USB is the default standard on all bands/frequencies for PC/souncard
> based digimodes. It's just heck of a lot easier to let the software
> handle any needed inversion for RTTY or whatever.
>
> Plus, if your software doesn't do the needed math to show the "RF signal
> frequency" on a waterfall, just the audio frequency, then it's a lot
> easier for the wetware behind the eyes to handle too.
>
> The common use of LSB for voiced/phone below 10MHz was an artifiact
> caused by some would say "sloppy design" in early commercialy made Ham
> SSB rigs, that used crystal filters and simple mixing (a legacy from AM
> designs) It was just cheaper for them to engineer them that way.
>
> There is no reason on earth these days why you *NEED* to use LSB for
> PC/Soundcard based digimodes. (Or any other mode, it's just what
> everyone got used to with voice mode. Few if any commercial services use
> LSB at all.)
>

IZ4MJP.com

Re: KX3 Data A and AFSK-A Mode need help

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

After some trials i've found where the problem reside.

Put the KX3 in Data A Mode and Mix W in RTTY (with the use of AFSK instead of FSK) then in the menu "Mode" select the voice "Inverted".
In the status bar at the bottom of the window appear the word "iRTTY" instead of "RTTY"

Now i can correctly decode RTTY in Data A Mode USB and use the right BW.

Many thanks for your help.

73
Franco, IZ4MJP

Il giorno 12/giu/2013, alle ore 00:08, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Franco,
>
> Have you tried setting MixW to RTTY normal and setting the K3 DATA A mode to reverse? DATA A is normally LSB, if you hold ALT (left side of MODE button) it will go to USB.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/11/2013 12:02 PM, IZ4MJP.com wrote:
>> Hello Mat.
>> Many thanks for the answer.
>>
>> I've already tried with RTTY-R but with no luck. In USB Mode or ASFK A no problem at all with the same settings.
>>
>> I'll give a try using MMTTY (maybe MixW 3.xx doesn't love DATA-A, hi hi).
>>
>>
>