Elecraft

[KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Classic

List

Threaded

30 messages Options

Bill Frantz

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

I think the correct acronym expansion of DTE is "Data Carrier
Equipment". Remember, this whole area was designed by telephone
companies who thought they would be a part of every connection.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/9/18 at 10:20 AM, [hidden email] (Fred Jensen) wrote:

>The flaw is naming them "transmit" and "receive." "DTE2DCE"
>and vice versa might have been a better choice so many years
>ago. "Data Terminal" and "Data Communications" were probably
>equally poor naming choices, but it seemed so obvious then.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Truth and love must prevail | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | over lies and hate. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | - Vaclav Havel | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Bill,

No, DCE is Data Communications Equipment and that means Modem which does
connect to a phone line or other communications carrier medium.
DTE means Data Terminal Equipment and connects to a modem.

Those designations have been in place since 1960 or earlier.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/9/2018 5:12 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> I think the correct acronym expansion of DTE is "Data Carrier
> Equipment". Remember, this whole area was designed by telephone
> companies who thought they would be a part of every connection.
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

George Danner-2

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

In broadcasting - we learned very quickly interfacing equipment with RS232,
that if it worked once it would continue to work.

Back in the beginning of using RS232 interfaces (cira. 70s) one of our the
engineers made a box with input/output pigtails in both male and female with
a rotary switch that switched between straight through and "reverse" for all
the various signals. Later we added 9 pin pigtails. Using that box quickly
let us know what would work and how to make the interface cable.

73
George AI4VZ

-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Underwood
I never really understood RS-232 until I read “Technical Aspects of Data
Communication” by John McNamara. Very clear. Not sure it is worth getting
the book just for that, but you might check a library.

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Ken Winterling

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

Get an inexpensive RS-232 breakout box. The LEDs and jumpers will help you
see what is happening on the data and control lines and enable you to
make/verify any cable you need. Compact gender changers address the
male/female connector issue as well as the 25 pin/9 pin conversion. I
still have a couple boxes that I used back in the 70s.

Ken
WA2LBI

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 08:30 George Danner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In broadcasting - we learned very quickly interfacing equipment with
> RS232,
> that if it worked once it would continue to work.
>
> Back in the beginning of using RS232 interfaces (cira. 70s) one of our the
> engineers made a box with input/output pigtails in both male and female
> with
> a rotary switch that switched between straight through and "reverse" for
> all
> the various signals. Later we added 9 pin pigtails. Using that box quickly
> let us know what would work and how to make the interface cable.
>
> 73
> George AI4VZ
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Walter Underwood
> I never really understood RS-232 until I read “Technical Aspects of Data
> Communication” by John McNamara. Very clear. Not sure it is worth getting
> the book just for that, but you might check a library.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

--

Ken
WA2LBI

Sent from one of my mobile devices
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

KENT TRIMBLE

RS232 DEVICES VIA KIO3B BOARD

The RS-232 thread comes coincidentally at a time when I have just
experienced an RS-232 "gotcha."

If you own a Palstar AT-AUTO you need to remember that the RS-232 cable
(null modem) originally supplied with the tuner is cross-wired (pin 2 to
pin 3, and pin 3 to pin 2). This is the correct wiring that allows the
tuner to follow frequency excursions by the K3.

Recently I returned my K3 (sn 21) to Watsonville for hardware upgrades
that included replacing the KIO3A board with the new KIO3B board (now
standard on the K3S). However, this new board no longer utilizes a DB-9
connector for RS-232 functions, but instead uses a female RJ-45 socket
for RS-232 functions. This now renders obsolete the original
DB9-equipped cable that came with the AT-AUTO. Fortunately, Elecraft
includes with the upgraded KIO3B board a pre-wired 30-inch RS-232
cable. This cable has an RJ-45 plug on one end and a DE9S plug on the
other end. Unfortunately, this cable is wired straight-through . . . no
cross-wiring . . . which means no QSY following by the Palstar.

After spending more time than I care to admit in testing cable
continuity, serial baud settings, and configuration menus in both the K3
and the Palstar, I suddenly tumbled to the fact that the Palstar cable
is cross-wired while the Elecraft cable is not.

Home-brewing a new cable with the proper wiring now permits the AT-AUTO
to follow band and frequency changes in the K3. Unfortunately, the
Elecraft cable uses molded connectors which prevented an easy and quick fix.

Just a tip for those who own either the original Palstar AT-AUTO or the
newer HF-AUTO (which I presume is wired the same), or for anyone using
RS-232 peripheral devices who want to upgrade to the new KIO3B board.
Those pin-outs in the manuals are there for a reason!

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, Missouri

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Nr4c

Re: RS232 DEVICES VIA KIO3B BOARD

Either plug the two cables together or with a “GenderChanger”.

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Jul 10, 2018, at 12:10 PM, KENT TRIMBLE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The RS-232 thread comes coincidentally at a time when I have just experienced an RS-232 "gotcha."
>
> If you own a Palstar AT-AUTO you need to remember that the RS-232 cable (null modem) originally supplied with the tuner is cross-wired (pin 2 to pin 3, and pin 3 to pin 2). This is the correct wiring that allows the tuner to follow frequency excursions by the K3.
>
> Recently I returned my K3 (sn 21) to Watsonville for hardware upgrades that included replacing the KIO3A board with the new KIO3B board (now standard on the K3S). However, this new board no longer utilizes a DB-9 connector for RS-232 functions, but instead uses a female RJ-45 socket for RS-232 functions. This now renders obsolete the original DB9-equipped cable that came with the AT-AUTO. Fortunately, Elecraft includes with the upgraded KIO3B board a pre-wired 30-inch RS-232 cable. This cable has an RJ-45 plug on one end and a DE9S plug on the other end. Unfortunately, this cable is wired straight-through . . . no cross-wiring . . . which means no QSY following by the Palstar.
>
> After spending more time than I care to admit in testing cable continuity, serial baud settings, and configuration menus in both the K3 and the Palstar, I suddenly tumbled to the fact that the Palstar cable is cross-wired while the Elecraft cable is not.
>
> Home-brewing a new cable with the proper wiring now permits the AT-AUTO to follow band and frequency changes in the K3. Unfortunately, the Elecraft cable uses molded connectors which prevented an easy and quick fix.
>
> Just a tip for those who own either the original Palstar AT-AUTO or the newer HF-AUTO (which I presume is wired the same), or for anyone using RS-232 peripheral devices who want to upgrade to the new KIO3B board. Those pin-outs in the manuals are there for a reason!
>
> 73,
>
> Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
> Jefferson City, Missouri
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm

Re: RS232 DEVICES VIA KIO3B BOARD

In reply to this post by KENT TRIMBLE

Kent,

You should be able to plug the Palstar cable into the cable from the K3
RJ-45 to RS-232 dongle. A gender changer may be needed.
Worth a try anyway.

Or you could purchase a short RS-232 Crossover cable to replace the one
to the tuner.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/10/2018 12:10 PM, KENT TRIMBLE wrote:

> The RS-232 thread comes coincidentally at a time when I have just
> experienced an RS-232 "gotcha."
>
> If you own a Palstar AT-AUTO you need to remember that the RS-232 cable
> (null modem) originally supplied with the tuner is cross-wired (pin 2 to
> pin 3, and pin 3 to pin 2). This is the correct wiring that allows the
> tuner to follow frequency excursions by the K3.
>
> Recently I returned my K3 (sn 21) to Watsonville for hardware upgrades
> that included replacing the KIO3A board with the new KIO3B board (now
> standard on the K3S). However, this new board no longer utilizes a DB-9
> connector for RS-232 functions, but instead uses a female RJ-45 socket
> for RS-232 functions. This now renders obsolete the original
> DB9-equipped cable that came with the AT-AUTO. Fortunately, Elecraft
> includes with the upgraded KIO3B board a pre-wired 30-inch RS-232
> cable. This cable has an RJ-45 plug on one end and a DE9S plug on the
> other end. Unfortunately, this cable is wired straight-through . . . no
> cross-wiring . . . which means no QSY following by the Palstar.
>

k6dgw

Re: RS232 DEVICES VIA KIO3B BOARD

You can get "null modems" that are just two back to back connectors.
Amazon, search on "null modem". They're small, cheap, and last a long
time. [:-)

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/10/2018 11:32 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Kent,
>
> You should be able to plug the Palstar cable into the cable from the
> K3 RJ-45 to RS-232 dongle. A gender changer may be needed.
> Worth a try anyway.
>
> Or you could purchase a short RS-232 Crossover cable to replace the
> one to the tuner.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

Elecraft mailing list

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I'm following up here with the verified solution to my issue.

To recap - When I used a KXSER cable to connect my KXPA/KX3 to my Ciro Mazzoni Magloop antenna controller, that left no port available for me to control the KX3 with RS232 using the program FLRig. The best solution I found was to use a DB9 Y-connector in conjunction with a breakout board for the DB9 branch going to the antenna controller. On that board, I patched only the RXD and ground lines: pins 2 and 5, from input to output.

With this configuration, the Antenna controller has its TXD pin left unconnected. As many here noted, this is of necessity since only one TXD driver can exist on a common TXD line. So, for the controller to work, FLRig must be running and connected to the radio. Since FLRig polls the KX3 control parameters, the Antenna controller receives the VFO data it needs on its RXD line. Apparently it doesn't matter that the controller is not doing the polling, as long as something else is.

If I wanted to return polling autonomy to the antenna controller, I would have to disconnect the Y-junction. But I think I will keep things in place. Just because FLRig is running on the computer, doesn't mean that I can't use the KX3 standalone as I usually have in the past. So this is an acceptable solution. I'll probably post it on Ciro Mazzoni's user site for others' benefit.

Thanks all for the help and pointers!

73,

Steve, NU7B

> On Jul 8, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
> Sorry about the pin typo. Look at the cable link for the steppIR that Dick K6KR sent and that will be obvious. I was looking at that diagram when I typed my response, but did not proof it.
> TXD is really pin 3.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 7/8/2018 7:24 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:
>> Don:
>> I tried a 3.5mm Y-connector at the KXPA and this did not work. But based on your feedback and also that of N6TV, I see that I have multiple TX drivers on the TXD line. Even if there is no TX from the antenna controller, the low-impedance of its TXD driver will load the line. Bob also thinks the controller may be polling for info, much like the program FLRIG does. One correction to your info Don, I think TXD is pin 3 on the DB-9, and not pin 2.
>> The KXSER cable DB9 shell appears to be molded - it's not obvious how to disassemble it. So I will need to go into the controller to disconnect TXD there. I'll report back on whether or not that works, next weekend.
>> 73,
>> Steve, NU7B
>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>> Yes, since you are using both the KXUSB and the KXSER cables, a "Y" at the KXPA100 would serve you well.
>>> If your magloop controller also attempts to transmit, you can remove the connection to pin 2 on the DE9 end of the KXSER cable (just remove the backshell and disconnect the wire).
>>>
>>> RS-232 multiplexors are complicated devices and require the use of the full RS-232 bus (mainly DTR and CTS signals) to handle the handshaking signals. The 3 conductor KX3/KXPA100 wiring will not provide the proper handshaking signals.
>>> The handshaking signals are not provided from the data stream (as they are in Ethernet and other communications protocols), but from the explicit signals separate from TXD and RTS.
>>>
>>> Note that the KX3 (and most other Elecraft products) rely only on TXD and RTS, which are reserved for data transmission only in the RS-232 scheme of things.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 7/8/2018 4:56 PM, Stephen Rector wrote:
>>>> Hi Don:
>>>> Yes - it occurred to me after sending the post that I might be able to create the split at the KXPA with a stereo Y-cable/connector. I am using a KXUSB to the computer, with a KXSER cable going from the the antenna controller to the KXPA. It is the KXUSB that presently has no place to connect to.
>>>> So - I think I can try a 3.5mm stereo y-junction at the KXPA. Hopefully impedances won't be an issue at 38400 baud...
>>>> I did look for RS232 multiplexers - they seem to exist for industrial applications. The documentation seemed to be sparse on the web.
>>>> Anyway - thanks for the pointer :)
>>>> 73,
>>>> Steve NU7B
>>>>> On Jul 8, 2018, at 1:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve,
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you using the KXUSB to connect with the KXPA100/KX3, or are you using the KXSER with a real computer serial port or a USB to serial adapter?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since your magloop controller only 'sniffs', it means it should only listen and never try to transmit on the RS-232 signal lines. If it only listens, there will be no collisons (RS-232 is not packet oriented, but an asynchronous communications system).
>>>>>
>>>>> If the magloop controller also transmits on the RS-232 bus, you will need some external device to act as "traffic cop" - note that RS-232 is a point to point system (unlike Ethernet and others) where there is one driver device and one receiver at each end.
>>>>>
>>>>> So yes, you can use a splitter - one with a 3.5mm stereo plug and two 3.5mm stereo jacks if using the KXUSB.
>>>>> If you are using the KXSER cable instead, yes, you can connect a "Y" DB9 splitter to the DB9 end of the KXSER cable - the computer connects to one side and the magloop controller connects to the other side of the "Y".
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/8/2018 3:31 PM, Stephen Rector via Elecraft wrote:
>>>>>> Hy home station is a KX3 + KPXA100, and I can control the radio via the RS232 port on the KXPA. However, recently I added a Ciro Mazzoni magloop to the station, and its controller plugs in to the KXPA serial port to sniff for frequency information, allowing re-tuning on the fly. This leaves no RS232 port left for remote control of the radio.
>>>>>> How do I modify this arrangement to add an extra serial port for KX3 control? My first thought is that, since the antenna controller just sniffs for data, I could add a DB-9 Y-cable to provide the extra port at the controller serial port location. However, packets could still collide ...does the protocol handle this? Is there some sort of multiplexer available?

Bill Frantz

Re: [KX3] RS232 xcvr control when serial ports are occupied

The AUTOINF (Tech mode) switch can have the K3(S) automatically
send frequency data on the RS-232 interface. The manual warns
that turning this on may not be compatible with all PC software,
but everything I run seems happy with it being on. With this on,
you don't need to have a program polling for this information.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/15/18 at 2:00 AM, [hidden email] (Stephen Rector
via Elecraft) wrote:

>With this configuration, the Antenna controller has its TXD pin
>left unconnected. As many here noted, this is of necessity
>since only one TXD driver can exist on a common TXD line. So,
>for the controller to work, FLRig must be running and connected
>to the radio. Since FLRig polls the KX3 control parameters, the
>Antenna controller receives the VFO data it needs on its RXD
>line. Apparently it doesn't matter that the controller is not
>doing the polling, as long as something else is.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Can't fix stupid, but duct | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | tape can muffle the sound... | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | - Bill Liebman | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]