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KX3- laptops for I/Q

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Brian Pepperdine

KX3- laptops for I/Q

I realize we are all still waiting for the KX3... somewhat patiently.In advance of that.. I know there has been some discussion already on soundcards to make use of the I/Q output.
But... I did want to raise the ugly spectre of the 'laptop' computer.I solved my soundcard issue on my home tower computer (real one with slots for a COMM card, sound card, etc) for LP-PAN by using an internal PCIe card chosen from Larry's list of approved cards.
However....

With laptops I believe that it seems there is a real lack of quality in built-in / motherboard integrated soundcards these days. Am I correct? I wonder if anyone is able to suggest what sort of machines would be up to the task? Is there something in the specs that we can be on the look-out for?
I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I want and hope to keep it going.
BrienVE3VAW

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

Brian,

My view of the operation on the gazebo or deck, etc. does not mesh in my
mind with use of the I/Q KX3 output. I think the primary use would be
to support CWskimmer, but could also be used to support a panadapter
function. While a panadapter may be nice in the gazebo, I anticipate
that the uses of the I/Q outputs will be better related to the home
station with greater than casual operating situations.

Those tools are used in serious operating situations rather than the
more casual operation that I envision will be done in the backyard,
gazebo or deck. OK, that is my opinion, others may differ.

The problem with many laptops is that they do not provide stereo line-in
inputs. If indeed that is the situation with your laptop, you will have
to use an external soundcard to make good use of the KX3 I/Q output. If
your laptop has stereo line-level inputs, then you will only need the
application software.
This is NOT a KX3 consideration - the KX3 is providing the I/Q output,
this is a laptop computer problem in that stereo inputs are not
available in many laptops.

The solution that works is to use an external USB soundcard - but then
again, that is an extra piece of gear to cart around to the backyard,
gazebo or deck. In my mind that reinforces my statement that such
operation is better planned for the home station rather than portable or
semi-portable operation away from the tools and resources of the home
station.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/31/2012 5:22 PM, Brian Pepperdine wrote:
> I realize we are all still waiting for the KX3... somewhat patiently.In advance of that.. I know there has been some discussion already on soundcards to make use of the I/Q output.
> But... I did want to raise the ugly spectre of the 'laptop' computer.I solved my soundcard issue on my home tower computer (real one with slots for a COMM card, sound card, etc) for LP-PAN by using an internal PCIe card chosen from Larry's list of approved cards.
> However....
>
> With laptops I believe that it seems there is a real lack of quality in built-in / motherboard integrated soundcards these days. Am I correct? I wonder if anyone is able to suggest what sort of machines would be up to the task? Is there something in the specs that we can be on the look-out for?
> I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I want and hope to keep it going.
> BrienVE3VAW
>
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n9adg

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

EMU-0202 or EMU-0404 may be the choices if you're going to be using a USB interface (most Laptops have mono sound inputs)...

> soundcards capable of working with modern laptops and providing decent performance
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Peter Wollan-2

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

True, but ... there's an iPad app that will produce a panadapter
display from the KX3 audio IQ output. (It needs a Griffin iMic or
equivalent). If I understand correctly. Perhaps not what you want
for picnic table operation, but probably nice for Field Day.

Peter W0LLN

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Brian,
>
> My view of the operation on the gazebo or deck, etc. does not mesh in my
> mind with use of the I/Q KX3 output.
(...)

> Those tools are used in serious operating situations rather than the
> more casual operation that I envision will be done in the backyard,
> gazebo or deck. (...)
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 1/31/2012 5:22 PM, Brian Pepperdine wrote:
>> (...)
>> I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I want and hope to keep it going.
>> BrienVE3VAW
>>

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

Peter,

I can only address what I know - I do not have an iPad (no Smartphone
either), and have not been trying to know or understand any of the apps
available. I can speak about laptops, and that was the content of the
question that was asked if I recall correctly.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/31/2012 6:02 PM, Peter Wollan wrote:

> True, but ... there's an iPad app that will produce a panadapter
> display from the KX3 audio IQ output. (It needs a Griffin iMic or
> equivalent). If I understand correctly. Perhaps not what you want
> for picnic table operation, but probably nice for Field Day.
>
> Peter W0LLN
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 4:44 PM, Don Wilhelm<[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Brian,
>>
>> My view of the operation on the gazebo or deck, etc. does not mesh in my
>> mind with use of the I/Q KX3 output.
> (...)
>> Those tools are used in serious operating situations rather than the
>> more casual operation that I envision will be done in the backyard,
>> gazebo or deck. (...)
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 1/31/2012 5:22 PM, Brian Pepperdine wrote:
>>> (...)
>>> I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I want and hope to keep it going.
>>> BrienVE3VAW
>>>
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Matt Maguire

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

FWIW, Macbook Pro has stereo line-in built in, although it does have a 20kHz LPF, limiting you to a 40KHz view. Normally you run Mac OSX operating system, but you can also run Windows using Bootcamp or Parallels/VMWare.

73, Matt VK2ACL.

On 01/02/2012, at 9:44 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Brian,
>
> My view of the operation on the gazebo or deck, etc. does not mesh in my
> mind with use of the I/Q KX3 output. I think the primary use would be
> to support CWskimmer, but could also be used to support a panadapter
> function. While a panadapter may be nice in the gazebo, I anticipate
> that the uses of the I/Q outputs will be better related to the home
> station with greater than casual operating situations.
>
> Those tools are used in serious operating situations rather than the
> more casual operation that I envision will be done in the backyard,
> gazebo or deck. OK, that is my opinion, others may differ.
>
> The problem with many laptops is that they do not provide stereo line-in
> inputs. If indeed that is the situation with your laptop, you will have
> to use an external soundcard to make good use of the KX3 I/Q output. If
> your laptop has stereo line-level inputs, then you will only need the
> application software.
> This is NOT a KX3 consideration - the KX3 is providing the I/Q output,
> this is a laptop computer problem in that stereo inputs are not
> available in many laptops.
>
> The solution that works is to use an external USB soundcard - but then
> again, that is an extra piece of gear to cart around to the backyard,
> gazebo or deck. In my mind that reinforces my statement that such
> operation is better planned for the home station rather than portable or
> semi-portable operation away from the tools and resources of the home
> station.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 1/31/2012 5:22 PM, Brian Pepperdine wrote:
>> I realize we are all still waiting for the KX3... somewhat patiently.In advance of that.. I know there has been some discussion already on soundcards to make use of the I/Q output.
>> But... I did want to raise the ugly spectre of the 'laptop' computer.I solved my soundcard issue on my home tower computer (real one with slots for a COMM card, sound card, etc) for LP-PAN by using an internal PCIe card chosen from Larry's list of approved cards.
>> However....
>>
>> With laptops I believe that it seems there is a real lack of quality in built-in / motherboard integrated soundcards these days. Am I correct? I wonder if anyone is able to suggest what sort of machines would be up to the task? Is there something in the specs that we can be on the look-out for?
>> I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I want and hope to keep it going.
>> BrienVE3VAW
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Edward R Cole

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

Don,

There are actually a lot of hams that use Elecraft equipment on the
VHF and higher bands with transverters. It is almost a given that
operating microwave ham radio involves hauling equipment up high on a
big hill or mountain. This operation is typically also very
weak-signal operation where software is utilized for either exotic
digital modes or using sw for enhanced super CW reception. Thus the
KX3 (small-light-but fully capable) will, I predict, be used for such
ham activity where a laptop is also convenient due to size/weight.

I do agree that an external USB connected soundcard is most likely
the solution. In fact I use that solution in my home station with a
table-top computer (have two: emu0202 and Delta-44).

I recently took our laptop to a ham club meeting intending to play a
DVD for the program and my soundcard is kaput - no sound out. It is
only a two year old Dell??

73, Ed - KL7UW

------------------------------

Message: 41
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 17:44:54 -0500
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3- laptops for I/Q
To: Brian Pepperdine <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Brian,

My view of the operation on the gazebo or deck, etc. does not mesh in my
mind with use of the I/Q KX3 output. I think the primary use would be
to support CWskimmer, but could also be used to support a panadapter
function. While a panadapter may be nice in the gazebo, I anticipate
that the uses of the I/Q outputs will be better related to the home
station with greater than casual operating situations.

Those tools are used in serious operating situations rather than the
more casual operation that I envision will be done in the backyard,
gazebo or deck. OK, that is my opinion, others may differ.

The problem with many laptops is that they do not provide stereo line-in
inputs. If indeed that is the situation with your laptop, you will have
to use an external soundcard to make good use of the KX3 I/Q output. If
your laptop has stereo line-level inputs, then you will only need the
application software.
This is NOT a KX3 consideration - the KX3 is providing the I/Q output,
this is a laptop computer problem in that stereo inputs are not
available in many laptops.

The solution that works is to use an external USB soundcard - but then
again, that is an extra piece of gear to cart around to the backyard,
gazebo or deck. In my mind that reinforces my statement that such
operation is better planned for the home station rather than portable or
semi-portable operation away from the tools and resources of the home
station.

73,
Don W3FPR

73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
======================================
BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com
EME: 50-1.1kw?, 144-1.4kw, 432-QRT, 1296-?, 3400-?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email]
"Kits made by KL7UW" http://www.kl7uw.com/kits.htm
======================================
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Thomas Horsten

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

Brian,

Some laptops are good, some are bad. This varies even between laptops even
with the same chipset, because the support chips differ. I've found that of
all the laptops I've tried, only a HP 8440 had a really good chipset for
SDR sampling up to 92kHz.

Consider getting an external USB soundcard like the E-MU 0202, which works
great on any laptop, or even the SDR Widget (still in the process of
building mine, but the performance data is amazing even at 192kHz, beating
any built-in or external sound cards on the market for this application!)

You probably won't get any decent 192kHz sampling in any laptop. To get the
noise level acceptable at this sampling rate, very careful design
considerations have to go into it, which would conflict with the space
constraints etc. of a laptop.

So far, I haven't seen a really "bad" HP, nor a really good Dell... But
those are just my experiences, YMMV.

73, Thomas M0TRN

On 31 January 2012 22:22, Brian Pepperdine <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I realize we are all still waiting for the KX3... somewhat patiently.In
> advance of that.. I know there has been some discussion already on
> soundcards to make use of the I/Q output.
> But... I did want to raise the ugly spectre of the 'laptop' computer.I
> solved my soundcard issue on my home tower computer (real one with slots
> for a COMM card, sound card, etc) for LP-PAN by using an internal PCIe card
> chosen from Larry's list of approved cards.
> However....
>
> With laptops I believe that it seems there is a real lack of quality in
> built-in / motherboard integrated soundcards these days. Am I correct? I
> wonder if anyone is able to suggest what sort of machines would be up to
> the task? Is there something in the specs that we can be on the look-out
> for?
> I see the KX3 .... with the I/Q lending a hand on the laptop on the gazebo
> deck (ah, summer).Or... I guess I can start haunting the computer
> re-builders for an oldie with the guts and a slot and PCMCIA soundcard I
> want and hope to keep it going.
> BrienVE3VAW
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Edward R Cole

Ed,

Lesson learned - "DBD" Don;t buy Dell. while Dell computers may offer
good value and function when they are new, my experience is that they
will typically last for 3 years and then go "belly up".
I will not buy an off-lease Dell computer for this very reason. OTOH,
the IBM or Lenovo off-lease computers offer a good value - both laptops
and desktops.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/31/2012 7:20 PM, Edward R. Cole wrote:

> Don,
>
> There are actually a lot of hams that use Elecraft equipment on the
> VHF and higher bands with transverters. It is almost a given that
> operating microwave ham radio involves hauling equipment up high on a
> big hill or mountain. This operation is typically also very
> weak-signal operation where software is utilized for either exotic
> digital modes or using sw for enhanced super CW reception. Thus the
> KX3 (small-light-but fully capable) will, I predict, be used for such
> ham activity where a laptop is also convenient due to size/weight.
>
> I do agree that an external USB connected soundcard is most likely
> the solution. In fact I use that solution in my home station with a
> table-top computer (have two: emu0202 and Delta-44).
>
> I recently took our laptop to a ham club meeting intending to play a
> DVD for the program and my soundcard is kaput - no sound out. It is
> only a two year old Dell??
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>

Bruce Beford-2

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

I believe the SDR Widget is still limited to 48KHz sampling within Windows,
due to driver constraints (no UAC2). The full 192KHz sampling rate is only
available when running under Linux, or in HPSDR emulation mode, with HPSDR
software.

The I/Q output bandwidth of the KX3 is only expected to be somewhere in the
30-48 KHz range anyway. (I don't believe a final number has been announced
yet). So, any "card" that provides decent performance at 48 KHz should be
sufficient.

73,
Bruce, n1RX

> Consider getting an external USB soundcard like the E-MU 0202, which works
> great on any laptop, or even the SDR Widget (still in the process of
> building mine, but the performance data is amazing even at 192kHz, beating
> any built-in or external sound cards on the market for this application!)

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N8LP

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

Most laptops don't have a stereo input, only mono mic input, so they are
worthless for SDR. I haven't tested any pc card type sound cards that
are really good, but some can be acceptable for limited bandwidth if you
can accept the center spike in the display. I have had very good results
with my laptop and E-MU 0204 USB sound card.

The SDR Widget sound card should be good since it uses the AK5394A ADC,
but I completely disagree with their test results of the E-MU 0202. My
tests using the same software testing suite were MUCH better. Also, they
didn't test the E-MU 1212m, which uses the AK5394 and gives spectacular
results.

Even though a lot of emphasis is put on sound cards, I think most casual
users of SDRs would be surprised at the results that can be obtained
with basic sound cards... as long as they have stereo line level inputs.

For basic field use with the KX3, there is an SDR app for iPhone / iPad
/ iPod Touch called iSDR which might be worth looking at. For stereo mic
input, additional hardware is required, and of course a SoftRock or
LP-PAN is still required.

Larry N8LP

On 2/1/2012 11:40 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 00:29:03 +0000
> From: Thomas Horsten<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3- laptops for I/Q
> To: Brian Pepperdine<[hidden email]>
> Cc:[hidden email]
> Message-ID:
> <CAPaRxgR-C=Uege91AkYgi14MH58Z8ebRNNo0ZUWTh+jr+=[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Brian,
>
> Some laptops are good, some are bad. This varies even between laptops even
> with the same chipset, because the support chips differ. I've found that of
> all the laptops I've tried, only a HP 8440 had a really good chipset for
> SDR sampling up to 92kHz.
>
> Consider getting an external USB soundcard like the E-MU 0202, which works
> great on any laptop, or even the SDR Widget (still in the process of
> building mine, but the performance data is amazing even at 192kHz, beating
> any built-in or external sound cards on the market for this application!)
>
> You probably won't get any decent 192kHz sampling in any laptop. To get the
> noise level acceptable at this sampling rate, very careful design
> considerations have to go into it, which would conflict with the space
> constraints etc. of a laptop.
>
> So far, I haven't seen a really "bad" HP, nor a really good Dell... But
> those are just my experiences, YMMV.
>
> 73, Thomas M0TRN

Jim AB3CV

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

Although older and some lowest cost laptops may not have stereo input, I
think you'll find that most laptops that come with webcams builtin do have
stereo mike inputs as part of their speakerphone capability.

My 2 year old Dell has stereo mike and line level inputs. The input jacks
are sensed and the input panel applet pops up to ask how to treat the
connection: line in or mike.

YMMV

Jim ab3cv
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Ross Primrose N4RP

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

I think you'll find that stereo line ins on laptops are VERY much NOT
the norm.

That said, if you can live with 48kHz sampling, I've had very good luck
with the Griffin iMic on both mac and pc.

73, Ross N4RP

On 2/1/2012 12:40 PM, Jim Miller wrote:
> Although older and some lowest cost laptops may not have stereo input, I
> think you'll find that most laptops that come with webcams builtin do have
> stereo mike inputs as part of their speakerphone capability.
>
> My 2 year old Dell has stereo mike and line level inputs. The input jacks
> are sensed and the input panel applet pops up to ask how to treat the
> connection: line in or mike.
>
> support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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Dave KK7SS

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

I just realised that my 4 yr old <$400 ASUS netbook has a seperate stereo mic input and a stereo headphone connection and yet my brand new >$1100 Lenovo laptop has a single socket for both mono mic + stereo headphone phones.
Strange, I paid more and got less !!

Still.... my netbook will be more useful if I engage in portable operation.... <g>

--
Dave G KK7SS
Richland, WA
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Jim AB3CV

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

Again, do a simple test to see if your laptop has a stereo line in before
spending money. It really isn't that hard to do.

Don't make assumptions.

jim ab3cv
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Bruce Beford-2

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

An LP-Pan or SoftRock will NOT be required to make use of the I/Q output of
the KX3. It is designed to drive a stereo soundcard input directly.
73,
Bruce

> For basic field use with the KX3, there is an SDR app for iPhone / iPad
> / iPod Touch called iSDR which might be worth looking at. For stereo mic
> input, additional hardware is required, and of course a SoftRock or
> LP-PAN is still required.

> Larry N8LP

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N8LP

Re: KX3- laptops for I/Q

In reply to this post by Brian Pepperdine

Correction... In the last paragraph of my post I see that I included too
much info from the iSDR web page. The page is aimed at generic SDR use,
and therefore lists as a requirement the need for an SDR like SoftRock
or LP-PAN. This is NOT needed with the KX3, of course. Additional
hardware is required to get a stereo audio input to the mobile device. I
sent a correction message yesterday, but it was apparently blocked by
the Elecraft list server.

Larry N8LP

On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:24:18 -0500
> From: Larry Phipps<[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KX3- laptops for I/Q
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> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
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> Most laptops don't have a stereo input, only mono mic input, so they are
> worthless for SDR. I haven't tested any pc card type sound cards that
> are really good, but some can be acceptable for limited bandwidth if you
> can accept the center spike in the display. I have had very good results
> with my laptop and E-MU 0204 USB sound card.
>
> The SDR Widget sound card should be good since it uses the AK5394A ADC,
> but I completely disagree with their test results of the E-MU 0202. My
> tests using the same software testing suite were MUCH better. Also, they
> didn't test the E-MU 1212m, which uses the AK5394 and gives spectacular
> results.
>
> Even though a lot of emphasis is put on sound cards, I think most casual
> users of SDRs would be surprised at the results that can be obtained
> with basic sound cards... as long as they have stereo line level inputs.
>
> For basic field use with the KX3, there is an SDR app for iPhone / iPad
> / iPod Touch called iSDR which might be worth looking at. For stereo mic
> input, additional hardware is required, and of course a SoftRock or
> LP-PAN is still required.
>
> Larry N8LP