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KXBC3 clock drift

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Re: KXBC3 clock drift

Funnily enough the IC-7300 guys were complaining about the same thing ;-)

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 28 Aug 2016, at 17:46, GRANT YOUNGMAN <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Re: "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
>
> You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>
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Joe Stone (KF5WBO)

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Mike,

> The manufacturer specs for all the Elecraft RTC chips promise much better.

What Elecraft RTC chips are you referring to? The KXBC3 keeps time using a PIC microcontroller.

> ... a customer does indeed have every right to expect a competent RTC implementation when he purchases the option. No???

I would say a customer has every right to see the schematic. He/she can then judge for him/herself whether the RTC implementation is competent,

http://www.elecraft.com/manual/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf

Speaking of which ... when can we expect to see the KX2 schematics?

73's

Joe
KF5WBO

Clay Autery

Re: KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

In reply to this post by Peter Pauly

Jackson Labs makes REALLY nice stuff... And THAT is not expensive in
the grand scheme of things... LOTS of GPSDOs et al time/freq standards
costing many multiples of that price... :)

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:17 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:

> Flexradio offers a GPSDO option for their receivers. It's made by Jackson
> Labs (and it isn't cheap):
>
> http://cart.flexradio.com/FLEX-65006700-GPSDO-Upgrade_p_899.html
>
> It's internal to the radio.
>
> On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any
>> ham transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>>
>> Phil W7OX

Alan. G4GNX

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Rose

I can't see what all the fuss is about. I like my time to be very accurate -
1 second in 10million years, so I wear a cheap radio controlled watch, which
is accurate once a day, but isn't even inaccurate by one second until the
next update. FWIW my friends expensive Rolex tracks with it very well too.
:-)

I don't expect a radio of any sort to show that accuracy and I must admit to
hardly ever checking the K3's time. It would only be important to me if I
had to set alarms by it.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-----Original Message-----
From: Rose
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:46 PM
To: Clay Autery ; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

No need ... my eyes can view a cellphone as easily as on a radio's display
... maybe easier / quicker if I have to call it up into the display.
(Mine has about a half inch high display.)

That's assuming that the name of the game is simply knowing what time it
is, as opposed to "playing" with a radio's features......

73

K0PP

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Clay Autery

Re: KXBC3 Clock Drift

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Yes and no... the utility will sync time with whatever computer/laptop
that is running the utility... The accuracy of the computer is
independent of the utility.

This is what I am currently doing... I have an NTP client running that
is keeping my laptop to within a few milliseconds....
Periodically, I shut down Win4K3 Suite and crank up the K3 Utility, and
sync the time...

It's a bit fidgety... don't always get a good sync... So the radio is
never more accurate than the computer, and seldom matches the computer
on sync to less than 1/10th of a second or so best case... luck of the
draw/random as to how close the sync ends up...

RIght now, not a big deal... but on some of the digital modes, I am
given to understand that having the time sync pretty close is key to
function...

73,

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:43 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:

> Doesn’t the K3 Utility have a one-click process for setting the K3’s on-board clock time to UTC Internet time? It doesn’t make the clock any more accurate, but it does offer a way of resetting without getting into the configuration menu. As I recall it’s in the KX3 Utility as well.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:34:22 -0600
> From: Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
> Message-ID:
> <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
> accurate time commonly available.
>
> 73!
>
> K0PP
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Clay Autery

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Rose

Never mind... ;-)

______________________
Clay Autery, KY5G
MONTAC Enterprises
(318) 518-1389

On 8/28/2016 12:46 PM, Rose wrote:

>
> No need ... my eyes can view a cellphone as easily as on a radio's
> display ... maybe easier / quicker if I have to call it up into the
> display. (Mine has about a half inch high display.)
>
> That's assuming that the name of the game is simply knowing what time
> it is, as opposed to "playing" with a radio's features......
>
> 73
>
> K0PP
>

kstover

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Grant Youngman-2

Well that's it darn it!

I won't be happy with my radio till there's and actual cesium clock
built in or available as an add on option. That'll make my JT65/JT9
signals hyper accurate...Oh wait...that's the computer clock. I *demand*
while Elecraft is fixing my radio's clock they also offer a fix for my
computer clock. Oh wait...I'm already running Dimension 4 that adjusts
my computer to NIST time every 15 minutes. There's the answer. I
*demand* Elecraft make available as an option a motherboard, processor,
and sufficient memory to run Windows 10 and D4 on my radio. Of course
the video from said radio will need to be displayed directly on a P3.

Never mind. I can change the time on the radio manually every couple of
months.

The above was sarcasm for those who just don't get it.

On 8/28/2016 11:46 AM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

>> Re: "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
>>
> You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)
>
> Grant NQ5T
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Erik Tkal

Re: "You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)"

That is why I have never complained about it, and I only offered my experience with it as a data point. I do, however, need to run controlled tests and spend some time with the schematics to better understand if voltage is a factor, or if something else is causing the differences in time swing.

In any case, I have been extremely pleased with my KX3 for over 3 years and I haven't spent much time investigating this yet, so it obviously isn't high on my priority list. I usually use my cell phone for time so the KX3 display remains free for other things ( VFO B, batt, current, PA temp, etc.).

Mark
KE6BB
-------- Original message --------From: GRANT YOUNGMAN <[hidden email]> Date: 8/28/16 9:46 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Elecraft Reflector Reflector <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift

>
> Re: "...the clock seems to lose a couple of minutes per month.”
>

You know a radio must be pretty good when the complaints start drifting off to how accurate (or not) it is as a timepiece ;-)

Grant NQ5T

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Don Wilhelm

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by kstover

I have a Seiko watch that is extremely accurate twice a day! You just
have to know when to look at it.
One day I will put a new battery in it.:-)

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 2:25 PM, Kevin wrote:

> Well that's it darn it!
>
> I won't be happy with my radio till there's and actual cesium clock
> built in or available as an add on option. That'll make my JT65/JT9
> signals hyper accurate...Oh wait...that's the computer clock. I
> *demand* while Elecraft is fixing my radio's clock they also offer a
> fix for my computer clock. Oh wait...I'm already running Dimension 4
> that adjusts my computer to NIST time every 15 minutes. There's the
> answer. I *demand* Elecraft make available as an option a motherboard,
> processor, and sufficient memory to run Windows 10 and D4 on my radio.
> Of course the video from said radio will need to be displayed directly
> on a P3.
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Raymond Sills

You are both correct -- I live about 20 miles from Eric, 3 miles from
K6XX, and know Wayne from many conversations both on and off the
reflector, including several in the bar at ham events. These guys are
VERY clear-eyed observers of the scene, and I've never seen "worship" of
their product line. No question -- Elecraft products are as good as they
are because Eric and Wayne read this reflector every day, because they
carefully study the needs/desires of their customers, and because they
incorporate many customer suggestions and design advice into their
products.

And, as a long time member of this reflector (about 12 years) have seen
WAY too much "fan worship." But if you think it's bad here, spend a week
reading the Ten Tec reflector, where the company and product they still
worship no longer exists. :)

No product is perfect, but perfection usually comes with increased cost.
N7WS has found issues with some products, including his K3, and I've
found issues as well. When I was a kid growing up in WV in the '50s, I
didn't know anyone who could afford Collins gear, but I saw a lot of
Heathkit, Hallicrafters, Hammerlund, Globe, and Viking. One of the great
thing about Elecraft is that the gear is as good as it is at far lower
cost than competitive products that cost a lot more. And I really love
their design concept that a bigger heavier radio is not a better radio.
I am SO happy to have those huge FT1000MPs gone from my operating desk. :)

73, Jim K9YC

On Sun,8/28/2016 8:21 AM, Ray Sills wrote:

> OTOH, many criticisms have resulted in improvements in the products. Wayne and Eric are quite capable of tolerating criticism, so owners are more than welcome to point out any deficiency or problem. That’s why people like Elecraft products: having the ear of the company.
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 11:06 AM, Wes Stewart <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> QSL
>>
>> On 8/28/2016 7:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>>> Elecraft fans often have a great tendency to dismiss without substantive basis any non-worshipful criticism...at least as far as I've observed in 16 years as an owner and list member. :-)
>>> Mike / KK5F

Jim Brown-10

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Joe Stone (KF5WBO)

On Sun,8/28/2016 11:12 AM, Joe Stone (KF5WBO) wrote:
> I would say a customer has every right to see the schematic.

I think so too, but Elecraft is one of the few mfrs that provides
schematics for most, if not all, of their products.

73, Jim K9YC

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Alan. G4GNX

Re: KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

I believe that the IC7100 has the facility, but it's an option.

73,

Alan. G4GNX

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Wheeler
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 6:06 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked
into it: Are there any ham transceivers with
on-board GPS receivers?

Phil W7OX
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kstover

Re: KXBC3 Clock Drift

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

Won't ever be a big deal. For JT65 and JT9 it's the computer clock that
matters. My rigs RTC could be off by an hour and it won't effect the
timing of a JT65/JT9 QSO.It would matter if Elecraft decided to add
those modes to the radio for direct keying by the on board keyer (God I
hope not).

On 8/28/2016 1:23 PM, Clay Autery wrote:

> Yes and no... the utility will sync time with whatever computer/laptop
> that is running the utility... The accuracy of the computer is
> independent of the utility.
>
> This is what I am currently doing... I have an NTP client running that
> is keeping my laptop to within a few milliseconds....
> Periodically, I shut down Win4K3 Suite and crank up the K3 Utility, and
> sync the time...
>
> It's a bit fidgety... don't always get a good sync... So the radio is
> never more accurate than the computer, and seldom matches the computer
> on sync to less than 1/10th of a second or so best case... luck of the
> draw/random as to how close the sync ends up...
>
> RIght now, not a big deal... but on some of the digital modes, I am
> given to understand that having the time sync pretty close is key to
> function...
>
>
> 73,
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 8/28/2016 12:43 PM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
>> Doesn’t the K3 Utility have a one-click process for setting the K3’s on-board clock time to UTC Internet time? It doesn’t make the clock any more accurate, but it does offer a way of resetting without getting into the configuration menu. As I recall it’s in the KX3 Utility as well.
>>
>> Ted, KN1CBR
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2016 08:34:22 -0600
>> From: Ken G Kopp <[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
>> Message-ID:
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> Virtually everyone has cellphone at hand and it will provide the most
>> accurate time commonly available.
>>
>> 73!
>>
>> K0PP
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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w7aqk

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Erik Tkal

Now Don, don't get testy! Hi. Actually, I think the critics may have a
good point--especially the ones using digital. For me, it is no big deal,
but the clock gets so far off so quickly I have stopped even looking at it.
However, the digital users do need some precision in order to get their
transmissions timed correctly for an exchange.

I don't know why the clock doesn't work so well, but there probably is a
good explanation for it. Still, in this day and age when a few bucks can
get you a clock that only loses/gains a second or two a month, it's hard to
understand why this clock performs so poorly. I don't have a KX2 clock, but
I do have one in my KX3. At this moment it is 5 minutes fast, and I last
set it to WWV about a month ago. The specs for the KX2 clock say the
deviation can be minimized to about 2 seconds per day, so apparently it is a
lot better! I have a wrist watch that barely loses or gains 1 second a
month--it's solar powered and no GPS involved either! In any event, it is a
bit of a misnomer to call the rig accessory a "real time clock"! Hi.
However, the clock feature is really an "extra", and not the main reason for
buying the accessory in the first place--at least I don't think anyone is
doing that. So, it's hard to be too critical of the cost, since that
applies mainly to the other features provided by the accessory.

It would be nice to better understand the problem, though, so maybe someone
from Elecraft can explain it. Then we can all get back to our regularly
scheduled program, which is already in progress!

Dave W7AQK

--------------------------
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KXBC3 clock drift
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

I would like an icebox in my KX3 to keep my sandwiches cool while portable.
Oh, and how about an automatic coffee maker for use during contest
periods. :-)

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Bill Frantz

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I certainly agree with Jim about liking light weight radios. I
take my K3 out 2 or 3 times a year, and being able to easily
carry it is very welcome. My KX3 is a perfect airplane rig.

But the real advantage of the radios, and the K3 in particular,
is their modular construction. When the K3S came out it was
possible to gain most of the advantages of K3S by upgrading a
K3. Keeping up with advances in the art is not only cheaper,
it's fun installing updates.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/28/16 at 11:35 AM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>No product is perfect, but perfection usually comes with
>increased cost. N7WS has found issues with some products,
>including his K3, and I've found issues as well. When I was a
>kid growing up in WV in the '50s, I didn't know anyone who
>could afford Collins gear, but I saw a lot of Heathkit,
>Hallicrafters, Hammerlund, Globe, and Viking. One of the great
>thing about Elecraft is that the gear is as good as it is at
>far lower cost than competitive products that cost a lot more.
>And I really love their design concept that a bigger heavier
>radio is not a better radio. I am SO happy to have those huge
>FT1000MPs gone from my operating desk. :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | I don't have high-speed | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | internet. I have DSL. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Bill Gerth

Re: KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

Hi Phil,

My Kenwood TMD710GA mobile ham transceiver has an onboard GPS receiver, synchronized realtime clock, AND a packet TNC. Makes a dandy self-contained APRS system. Granted, it is only for VHF/UHF on the ham bands (no HF). It also makes it really easy to set the KXBC3 clock in my KX3 just before hitting the trail for a SOTA summit, even if I'm out of range on my cell phone.

73,
BILL
W4RK
KX3 S/N 112

On Aug 28, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any ham transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>
> Phil W7OX
>
>

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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

HTs, of course. But I meant HF rigs. Sounds like there may be a few.

Phil -- Sent from my iPhone 5S

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 13:10, Bill Gerth <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> My Kenwood TMD710GA mobile ham transceiver has an onboard GPS receiver, synchronized realtime clock, AND a packet TNC. Makes a dandy self-contained APRS system. Granted, it is only for VHF/UHF on the ham bands (no HF). It also makes it really easy to set the KXBC3 clock in my KX3 just before hitting the trail for a SOTA summit, even if I'm out of range on my cell phone.
>
> 73,
> BILL
> W4RK
> KX3 S/N 112
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Phil Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> As a matter of curiosity because I've not looked into it: Are there any ham transceivers with on-board GPS receivers?
>>
>> Phil W7OX
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by Erik Tkal

Re: "$10 wristwatches are accurate to a few seconds per month."

Yep! That is exactly what the original poster was concerned with. You said it even better than he did. The original poster's KXBC3 clock isn't as accurate as a $10 wristwatch. Mine isn't either, last time I checked it.
The poster simply asked what other people were experiencing, so I provided my experience. I am not complaining. I dont really use the clock. There are too many other things that need the display.

Mark
KE6BB
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Don Wilhelm

Re: KXBC3 clock drift

In reply to this post by w7aqk

Dave,

Yes, the RTC is an "add-on convenience" item for the rig. It is a nice
thing to have for logging when operating portable (set it before the
outing).

As far as digital modes go, the Elecraft gear offers only PSK and FSK
internally and as far as I know, those are not time critical and logging
the contact as much as a minute off is not going to cause a big problem.
For those operating JT modes (which are time critical), a computer or
other 'smart' device is required and the timing is controlled by that
device and not by the K3(S), KX3 or KX2, so the RTC in the transceiver
does not control the transmission/receive timing.

Certainly, I have a $39 Timex watch on my wrist, and it has not been set
for the last many months. It does not sync to WWVB or anything else, it
just runs, and matches my atomic clock time if I ignore the seconds. I
consider that an accurate timepiece.

If Elecraft were to automate trimming the accuracy of the RTC, I suspect
it would add to the cost of the option that includes the RTC. With the
RTC in the K2's KAF2 and KDSP2 options, the builder is given
instructions on how to change the capacitor value to give more long term
accuracy to the clock, but I don't know of any builders who have done
that. It takes a long time to determine how much clock drift occurs and
it takes a bit of experimenting with the capacitor value to get it
'right on'. In other words, it is a lengthy process.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/28/2016 3:53 PM, w7aqk wrote:

> Now Don, don't get testy! Hi. Actually, I think the critics may have
> a good point--especially the ones using digital. For me, it is no big
> deal, but the clock gets so far off so quickly I have stopped even
> looking at it. However, the digital users do need some precision in
> order to get their transmissions timed correctly for an exchange.
>
> I don't know why the clock doesn't work so well, but there probably is
> a good explanation for it. Still, in this day and age when a few
> bucks can get you a clock that only loses/gains a second or two a
> month, it's hard to understand why this clock performs so poorly. I
> don't have a KX2 clock, but I do have one in my KX3. At this moment
> it is 5 minutes fast, and I last set it to WWV about a month ago. The
> specs for the KX2 clock say the deviation can be minimized to about 2
> seconds per day, so apparently it is a lot better!

Wes Stewart-2

Re: KXBC3 clock drift & On-Board GPS

In reply to this post by Clay Autery

I wish I would have bought something from them instead of the Leo Bodnar unit.
It seems to be fine but the support is lacking.

On 8/28/2016 11:16 AM, Clay Autery wrote:

> Jackson Labs makes REALLY nice stuff... And THAT is not expensive in
> the grand scheme of things... LOTS of GPSDOs et al time/freq standards
> costing many multiples of that price... :)
>
> ______________________
> Clay Autery, KY5G
> MONTAC Enterprises
> (318) 518-1389
>
> On 8/28/2016 12:17 PM, Peter Pauly wrote:

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