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Keying CW in SSB Mode

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Edward A. Dauer

Keying CW in SSB Mode

I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD. On several occasions – usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW. Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time. They were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, I tuned the RIT widely on either side. I wondered why that would be happening. I certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup. One possibility I thought of was that those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the last time they intended to use it. But this thread about audio tones keying CW on SSB suggests another. Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) Hz? If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy during a contest on a crowded band.

Ted, KN1CBR

------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 00:20:39 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: Terry Brown <[hidden email]>, [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fldigi and signallink question interfaced to
KX3
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

sorry about the blank response. It is late here and the fingers do not
work well.

Fldigi uses audio tones for keying, and you need to be in SSB mode
(typically USB or DATA A) to transmit on the proper frequency - CW
included - but I would expect twice the sidetone pitch.
Use DATA A mode when trying to send CW via the Fldigi CW mode.

CW is "just another digital mode" although one that can be decoded by
the human brain for those who know morse. It uses audio tones to send
CW, do the carrier frequency USB frequency will be the transmit
frequency plus the frequency for the sidetone in Fldigi.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/29/2017 11:26 PM, Terry Brown wrote:
> I have a KX3 connected to a Signalink and Fldigi. It seems to work fine for
> all the digital modes. I can use it to decode CW, but have never sent CW.
> I clicked on the CQ button and all that happened was that my transmitter
> went into transmit mode, but nothing was transmitted. If I put the KX3 in
> LSB it would transmit cw fine, but was always off frequency by the amount of
> my sidetone.

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

>Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) Hz?

Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB, then we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW mode on my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear off to the side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating, I had a hunch that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him, and we completed the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have been pretty wide for him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode.

Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.

73, Ryan AI6DO
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Fred Moore-2

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
what was going on. You should see their signal when they have RF on the
audio or a hum. Not exactly meets the FCC requirements. If you are
listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off.

Let the flood gates start with all of the "you can't tell the difference
so it's ok" But I can and have seen it many times with bad signals..

It's not CW keying, its USB or LSB keying with a single tone. It makes
me crazy when someone calls it CW keying, no way it is

Fred

Fred Moore
email: [hidden email]
[hidden email]
phone: 321-217-8699

On 7/2/17 10:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD. On several occasions – usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW. Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time. They were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, I tuned the RIT widely on either side. I wondered why that would be happening. I certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup. One possibility I thought of was that those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the last time they intended to use it. But this thread about audio tones keying CW on SSB suggests another. Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) Hz? If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy during a contest on a crowded band.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
>

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

All,

That may be true for CW sent by FLDIGI or another data mode application
- it simply feeds a (hopefully) single tone to the SSB generator.

The K3 CW in SSB mode is different because it is real keyed CW from the
paddles of keying input. Yes, the carrier is shifted by the sidetone
pitch so a station listening in SSB mode will hear the tone.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/3/2017 4:00 PM, Fred Moore wrote:
> Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
> what was going on. You should see their signal when they have RF on the
> audio or a hum. Not exactly meets the FCC requirements. If you are
> listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
> Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off.
>
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Fred Moore-2

Ted, Fred et al;

As a rule using the SSB mode to send CW is very risky at best. Any hum
or distortion, meaning the smallest amount, on the CW generated audio
signal will produce harmonics of the fundamental audio tone . These
will pass through the SSB generator and sideband filter and thus be
transmitted. {i.e. - 700, 1400, 2100, 2800 Hz} Probably at levels in
excess of the FCC regulation on signal purity. Not to mention
upsetting your band neighbors around your frequency.

The earlier references I made to using FLDIGI and a Signalink USB
interface, FLDIGI does generate CW audio. It is this audio signal
which activates the relay in the Signalink USB, thus it is a relay
which is performing the function of keying the radio in CW mode. No
different than a straight key. In this case, the radio MUST be in the
CW mode, the Signalink USB Delay set fully counter clockwise to
minimum. Even then, the speed of the associated circuits and the relay
close and open time will limit CW speed to less than 20 WPM or so.

Other software applications may behave differently when connected direct
to the radio or via an interface device. No one rule stands for all
configurations.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 7/3/2017 3:00 PM, Fred Moore wrote:

> Ted, it's not a great strategy any time, and yes most likely that is
> what was going on. You should see their signal when they have RF on the
> audio or a hum. Not exactly meets the FCC requirements. If you are
> listening with a wide filter some times you even get to hear their
> Microsoft Windows generated tones if they forget to turn them off.
>
> Let the flood gates start with all of the "you can't tell the difference
> so it's ok" But I can and have seen it many times with bad signals..
>
> It's not CW keying, its USB or LSB keying with a single tone. It makes
> me crazy when someone calls it CW keying, no way it is
>
> Fred
>
> Fred Moore
> email: [hidden email]
> [hidden email]
>

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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Using audio tones in LSB or USB mode for CW is risky business. Any
amount of over drive or excessive audio anywhere in the system,
computer, software, radio and such WILL cause problems. Same for hum or
distortion of the audio, specially if impacted by a wee bit of RF in the
audio.

I don't advise using this method unless one is very sure they have the
system optimized for most any digital mode. The K3S is ideal in as much
as one can use DATA A mode and not be concerned with the LSB or USB
offset. Plus a single cable between the radio and computer is all that
is required to be successful for CW or the DATA modes.

If your software provides CW via the KY CMD, as in HRD/DM780, this is
direct CW and is handled in the CW mode by the K3S. Sweet!

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 7/2/2017 9:32 AM, Dauer, Edward wrote:
> I wonder if this explains something I ran into during FD. On several occasions – usually late at night – I was able to do some running, all on CW. Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time. They were outside the passband and I heard them only when, after a CQ, I tuned the RIT widely on either side. I wondered why that would be happening. I certainly wasn’t the target of a pileup. One possibility I thought of was that those callers had forgotten to cancel split after the last time they intended to use it. But this thread about audio tones keying CW on SSB suggests another. Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) Hz? If so, it seems like it wouldn’t be a great strategy during a contest on a crowded band.
>
> Ted, KN1CBR
>
>
>

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Edward A. Dauer

Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Regarding keying to produce CW in SSB mode – I mean this as a question, not a criticism – why would someone want to do it? If both ends of the QSO are using SSB then, as I understand it, there is no relative frequency offset between them. But there would be for any other station using CW mode for CW. Do I have that right? If so, what’s the advantage of using SSB mode for CW operations? Is it that using SSB allows programmed keying from a computer generated audio tone? Wouldn’t something like a Winkeyer and N1MM allow the same operation in CW mode itself?

Ted, KN1CBR
------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 16:42:28 -0400
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

. . .

The K3 CW in SSB mode is different because it is real keyed CW from the
paddles of keying input. Yes, the carrier is shifted by the sidetone
pitch so a station listening in SSB mode will hear the tone.

73,
Don W3FPR

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wayne burdick

Keying CW in SSB Mode [explained]

Administrator

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

The K3, K3S, KX2 and KX3 all have a menu option for “automatic VFO offset on SSB/CW mode change.” When this is turned on, the operator can switch from SSB to CW mode, hit the key, and have the other station hear them at approximately their sidetone pitch. The VFO frequency is offset to achieve this. When automatic offset is turned off (the default), switching from SSB to CW mode does not move the VFO frequency, which means that hitting the key would result in the other station hearing you at zero beat.

To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘5’. The setting will alternate between VFO OFS and VFO NOR.

This feature was specifically added for the situation described, where fading (typically on 6 m) compels one or both stations to switch to CW mode.

However, an easier way to send CW in SSB mode is to just make sure “SSB +CW” is in effect in the menu. In this case you can be in SSB mode and simply hit the key to transmit CW with an automatic offset that the other station will hear as roughly your sidetone pitch. Two stations using Elecraft radios could both be in SSB mode, and hear each other when hitting the key without either having to change modes.

To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘1’ .The setting will alternate between SSB +CW and SSB -CW.

Note that "SSB +CW" mode is *not* like using audio-tone CW in SSB mode. If you hit the key in SSB mode and SSB +CW is in effect, the radio actually does switch to CW mode each time you hit the key.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On Jul 3, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Ryan Noguchi via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it at the time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don suggests, 1200) Hz?
>
>
> Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB, then we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW mode on my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear off to the side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating, I had a hunch that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him, and we completed the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have been pretty wide for him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode.
>
> Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.
>
> 73, Ryan AI6DO
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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David Pratt-2

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

Ed K1EP

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode [explained]

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne, I have used this feature in the past with success and like it on 6M.
However, we recently switched to a setup where we need to sequence the amp
and relays, making the use of PTT (foot switch) mandatory. I turned off VOX
and breakin, but hitting the paddle in this mode still acts like VOX is
enabled and runs the risk of hot switching relays. Is it possible to make
that PTT TX too?

On Jul 4, 2017 12:58 PM, "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The K3, K3S, KX2 and KX3 all have a menu option for “automatic VFO offset
> on SSB/CW mode change.” When this is turned on, the operator can switch
> from SSB to CW mode, hit the key, and have the other station hear them at
> approximately their sidetone pitch. The VFO frequency is offset to achieve
> this. When automatic offset is turned off (the default), switching from SSB
> to CW mode does not move the VFO frequency, which means that hitting the
> key would result in the other station hearing you at zero beat.
>
> To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘5’. The
> setting will alternate between VFO OFS and VFO NOR.
>
> This feature was specifically added for the situation described, where
> fading (typically on 6 m) compels one or both stations to switch to CW mode.
>
> However, an easier way to send CW in SSB mode is to just make sure “SSB
> +CW” is in effect in the menu. In this case you can be in SSB mode and
> simply hit the key to transmit CW with an automatic offset that the other
> station will hear as roughly your sidetone pitch. Two stations using
> Elecraft radios could both be in SSB mode, and hear each other when hitting
> the key without either having to change modes.
>
> To change this setting, locate the CW WGHT menu entry and tap ‘1’ .The
> setting will alternate between SSB +CW and SSB -CW.
>
> Note that "SSB +CW" mode is *not* like using audio-tone CW in SSB mode. If
> you hit the key in SSB mode and SSB +CW is in effect, the radio actually
> does switch to CW mode each time you hit the key.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 3, 2017, at 12:41 PM, Ryan Noguchi via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> Five or six times over several hours I heard stations calling me way
> off my frequency. It seemed like a Khz or more, though I didn’t measure it
> at the time...>Is it possible that they were using CW keying on USB or LSB
> which resulted in a frequency offset of, typically, 600 (or, as Don
> suggests, 1200) Hz?
> >
> >
> > Yes, I think I experienced this last weekend. I answered a CQ on 6M SSB,
> then we agreed to switch to CW on the same frequency. When I switched to CW
> mode on my KX3, no one was there, but I saw a faint narrow signal appear
> off to the side on the PX3. After several seconds of waiting and debating,
> I had a hunch that was my op, so I QSYed to that frequency and found him,
> and we completed the QSO on that frequency. His filter sandwich must have
> been pretty wide for him to copy me, so he was probably still in SSB mode.
> >
> > Detecting off-frequency callers outside my narrow filter passband is yet
> another reason why I find the PX3 indispensible.
> >
> > 73, Ryan AI6DO
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Bill Frantz

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Bob McGraw - K4TAX

RUMlogNG will use RS-232 commands to the K3(S) to send CW, PSK31
and RTTY for Mac users.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 7/4/17 at 6:32 AM, [hidden email] (Bob McGraw K4TAX) wrote:

>If your software provides CW via the KY CMD, as in HRD/DM780,
>this is direct CW and is handled in the CW mode by the K3S. Sweet!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by Edward A. Dauer

It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.

73 - Jim K8MR

-----Original Message-----
From: Dauer, Edward <[hidden email]>
To: elecraft <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tue, Jul 4, 2017 8:44 pm
Subject: [Elecraft] Keying CW in SSB Mode

Regarding keying to produce CW in SSB mode – I mean this as a question, not a criticism – why would someone want to do it? If both ends of the QSO are using SSB then, as I understand it, there is no relative frequency offset between them. But there would be for any other station using CW mode for CW. Do I have that right? If so, what’s the advantage of using SSB mode for CW operations? Is it that using SSB allows programmed keying from a computer generated audio tone? Wouldn’t something like a Winkeyer and N1MM allow the same operation in CW mode itself?

Ted, KN1CBR

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gm3sek

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

> It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
>on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
>makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.
>
>73 - Jim K8MR

But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it almost unusable for the intended purpose.

If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use *slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in frequent and unwanted relay dropouts.

The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the duration of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But when using CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT *disallows* all CW output!

This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

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wayne burdick

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

Administrator

This would be a fairly complex change to the normal T/R sequencer. Sorry we haven’t gotten to it yet.

Meanwhile, there’s a simple workaround that works well:

1. In CONFIG:CW WGHT, tap ‘5’ to select “VFO OFS” mode, then exit the menu. With VFO OFS in effect, changing from SSB to CW mode will shift the VFO frequency by an amount equal to your CW sidetone pitch, automatically positioning it so that hitting the key will result in the other station hearing a tone.

2. During operation, if you need to use CW, just change modes. You can then use PTT. If you change back to SSB, the VFO offset will be removed.

Wayne
N6KR

> On Jul 5, 2017, at 5:53 AM, Ian White <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
>> on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
>> makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.
>>
>> 73 - Jim K8MR
>
> But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it almost unusable for the intended purpose.
>
> If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use *slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in frequent and unwanted relay dropouts.
>
> The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the duration of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But when using CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT *disallows* all CW output!
>
> This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>

Jessie Oberreuter-2

Re: Keying CW in SSB Mode

In reply to this post by gm3sek

This is mostly a problem if you have external transverters, amps,
pre-amps, etc. that don't take kindly to QSK operation.

My solution to this problem is to use the PTT (a foot-switch in my
case) to key the transverters, but not the rig. I'm using a stack of
Elecraft's external transverters connected to the low-level XV interface.
If I key the rig without first keying the transverters, nothing happens;
the low level drivers aren't phased by being unterminated. When I press
the foot switch, the selected transverter goes through its regular
sequencing, but doesn't key the K3, so CW-in-SSB still works.

I personally leave the K3 in vox mode, but the situation is the same
with, say, a hand-mike. Push the foot switch to sequence the
transverters, amps, pre-amps, etc., then PTT on the mike or just have at
it with the keys/paddles.

In terms of wiring, I simply disconnected the transverter stack's
key-in and key-out lines from the K3, and wired a foot switch to the
stack's key-in line.

-kb7psg

On Wed, 5 Jul 2017, Ian White wrote:

>> It is very common on VHF to switch to CW to call a guy who is transmitting
>> on SSB, most often after calling him on SSB doesn't get through. CW in SSB
>> makes it unnecessary to switch modes to do so.
>>
>> 73 - Jim K8MR
>
> But Elecraft's implementation of CW-in-SSB contains a bug that makes it almost unusable for the intended purpose.
>
> If signals are too weak for SSB, then it is almost always necessary to use *slow* CW - probably much slower than the regular CW settings, resulting in frequent and unwanted relay dropouts.
>
> The normal, obvious 'fix' for these dropouts is to engage PTT for the duration of the transmission, and this works fine in regular CW mode. But when using CW-in-SSB it inexplicably does the exact opposite: engaging PTT *disallows* all CW output!
>
> This bug has been reported a number of times and is still waiting to be fixed.
>
> 73 from Ian GM3SEK
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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