Legacy = Low Latency: FSK-D mode

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

The issue is simply that DXPeditions mostly don't recruit quality RTTY
operators.  A quality/experienced operator with proper software (GRITTY
and/or a "broadband"/multi-channel decoder) can run rates comparable
with CW or SSB.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-03-22 8:45 PM, Wes wrote:

> I know about FT8 DXPedition mode.  I have used it a couple of times just
> for the hell of it but I never claim DXCC credit for FT8 contacts.  I
> also know that 14080 isn't one of the "recommended" frequencies for FT8.
>
> I would argue about the efficacy compared to CW.  I know it reports all
> of those negative SNRs but they are bogus.  As to rates, when my friend
> Ned, AA7A, was operating RTTY from S. Georgia and S. Sandwich he was
> knocking them dead.  On 15 meters VP8SGI made almost the same number of
> RTTY contacts as SSB contacts. They only operated RTTY on three bands
> yet about 10% of their total Qs were RTTY.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
> On 3/22/2019 4:08 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 3/22/2019 3:29 PM, Wes wrote:
>>> DXCC certificate that actually says "RTTY" on it. Today it's harder
>>> to find new ones, but I have 254 confirmed now with my modest station.
>>
>> Congrats on that.  I too am quite happy with AFSK.
>>
>>>
>>> It's great fun and even though it's a "digital" mode, operator skill
>>> still makes a difference.
>>
>> Yep. RTTY contesting can be a lot of fun, especially with SO2R. A
>> couple of guys in our contest club, WK6I and W0YK, win RTTY contests
>> running three radios.  And operator skill also matters with FT8, even
>> though it's also possible to make QSOs with minimal operator involvement.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I heard one of the current DXpeditions plopped on
>>> 14.080 using the abysmal FT8
>>
>> That's because 1) RTTY is very difficult for the DXpedition operator
>> in a pileup, making for slow QSO rates; 2)  the latest version of
>> WSJT-X includes a "DXpedition mode" that allows far greater rates than
>> RTTY; and the signal to noise advantage of FT8 over CW (moderate) and
>> SSB (a lot) allows QSOs over more difficult paths and with more modest
>> stations.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>
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[Peter W2IRT]

I concur. There have been some great RTTY ops at times, but more Dxpeditions had it as an afterthought and it showed in their rates. I've always hated RTTY pileups as a DXer. You need to have two active windows and a lot of luck finding the 599 on the second one, especially in a lidfest where nobody stops sending when the DX calls someone.

I'm currently sitting at 329 worked in digital, every one of them was on RTTY (including deleteds; 327 without). Included in there were some truly hellacious pileups 15-30 kHz wide. While I still enjoy the mode for simplex DXing or a simple "up 3", for high-demand DXpeditions I am grudgingly accepting that FT8 F/H is the way of the future, and will make a lot of DXers happy down the line.

With Bouvet slated for FT8 as the sole digital mode, I'm hoping somehow to get another 4 more that I still need the old way, then I can hang the diddle up for good.

 - pjd

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 9:01 PM
To: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Legacy = Low Latency: FSK-D mode


The issue is simply that DXPeditions mostly don't recruit quality RTTY operators.  A quality/experienced operator with proper software (GRITTY and/or a "broadband"/multi-channel decoder) can run rates comparable with CW or SSB.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 2019-03-22 8:45 PM, Wes wrote:

> I know about FT8 DXPedition mode.  I have used it a couple of times
> just for the hell of it but I never claim DXCC credit for FT8
> contacts.  I also know that 14080 isn't one of the "recommended" frequencies for FT8.
>
> I would argue about the efficacy compared to CW.  I know it reports
> all of those negative SNRs but they are bogus.  As to rates, when my
> friend Ned, AA7A, was operating RTTY from S. Georgia and S. Sandwich
> he was knocking them dead.  On 15 meters VP8SGI made almost the same
> number of RTTY contacts as SSB contacts. They only operated RTTY on
> three bands yet about 10% of their total Qs were RTTY.
>
> Wes  N7WS
>
>
> On 3/22/2019 4:08 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 3/22/2019 3:29 PM, Wes wrote:
>>> DXCC certificate that actually says "RTTY" on it. Today it's harder
>>> to find new ones, but I have 254 confirmed now with my modest station.
>>
>> Congrats on that.  I too am quite happy with AFSK.
>>
>>>
>>> It's great fun and even though it's a "digital" mode, operator skill
>>> still makes a difference.
>>
>> Yep. RTTY contesting can be a lot of fun, especially with SO2R. A
>> couple of guys in our contest club, WK6I and W0YK, win RTTY contests
>> running three radios.  And operator skill also matters with FT8, even
>> though it's also possible to make QSOs with minimal operator involvement.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I heard one of the current DXpeditions plopped on
>>> 14.080 using the abysmal FT8
>>
>> That's because 1) RTTY is very difficult for the DXpedition operator
>> in a pileup, making for slow QSO rates; 2)  the latest version of
>> WSJT-X includes a "DXpedition mode" that allows far greater rates
>> than RTTY; and the signal to noise advantage of FT8 over CW
>> (moderate) and SSB (a lot) allows QSOs over more difficult paths and
>> with more modest stations.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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[Wes Stewart-2]

Congratulations on your achievement! Very impressive.

I need two, SV/A and FR/G, for top of the Honor Roll (mixed).  My QRZ,com bio
describes my station so I won't repeat it here, except to say that I have never
owned a transceiver with two receivers.  I'm not discounting the idea that two
receives might be more effective in some cases, but I (obviously) don't think
they are a requirement for working DX pileups.

Case in point:  As I said before I worked both VP8STI and VP8SGI on RTTY. 
AFAIK, Ned, AA7A was operating both times.  I spent two hours calling him on
20m, while trying to figure out his pattern before I figured out that he didn't
have one!  I confirmed with him in person later that this was the case.  He
randomly tuned after every contact. I finally went up (from my log) 8 kHz and he
found me.  Trying to find the last guy worked is pointless sometimes.

Regrettably, I think you are correct about FT8.  Even the aforementioned AA7A in
a presentation to our DX club discussed this.  He has become a big promoter, and
I believe worked on DXpedition mode development.  He asked, "By a show of hands,
how many of you RTTY guys listen to the audio?"  I raised my hand.  He shook his
head and said that one reason that he really liked FT8 as a expedition operator
was that he didn't have to listen to it. I won't editorialize further.

Wes  N7WS

On 3/22/2019 10:41 PM, Peter Dougherty wrote:
> I concur. There have been some great RTTY ops at times, but more Dxpeditions had it as an afterthought and it showed in their rates. I've always hated RTTY pileups as a DXer. You need to have two active windows and a lot of luck finding the 599 on the second one, especially in a lidfest where nobody stops sending when the DX calls someone.
>
> I'm currently sitting at 329 worked in digital, every one of them was on RTTY (including deleteds; 327 without). Included in there were some truly hellacious pileups 15-30 kHz wide. While I still enjoy the mode for simplex DXing or a simple "up 3", for high-demand DXpeditions I am grudgingly accepting that FT8 F/H is the way of the future, and will make a lot of DXers happy down the line.
>
> With Bouvet slated for FT8 as the sole digital mode, I'm hoping somehow to get another 4 more that I still need the old way, then I can hang the diddle up for good.
>
>   - pjd
>

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