Loud relay click on CW using RX ant only on some bands

[Chris Hallinan]

Hi folks

I've been enjoying a new RX Loop antenna with my K3.  All of a sudden,
every dit and dah (every key press) produces a relay click whenever the RX
ANT is active.  I swear that wasn't happening before.  With very similar
settings, (VOX, QSK, ANT1 RX, AGC-F) I hear the relay on 40 meters but not
on 20.  SWR is normal, using VFO-A, nothing unusual.  When I back the power
down to 5W or less, it stops clicking.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?  Probably got it into
some strange mode again!  Although I'm fairly technically savvy, I am still
getting to know my K3.

Thanks,

Chris

--
Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

Chris,

You are hearing the COR (carrier operated Relay) engaging.
You have too much Transmit RF reaching your RX antenna.

The cure is to move your RX antenna further away from your TX antenna,
or use one of the several solutions that disconnect (or ground) the RX
antenna during transmit.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/12/2015 8:28 PM, Chris Hallinan wrote:

> Hi folks
>
> I've been enjoying a new RX Loop antenna with my K3.  All of a sudden,
> every dit and dah (every key press) produces a relay click whenever the RX
> ANT is active.  I swear that wasn't happening before.  With very similar
> settings, (VOX, QSK, ANT1 RX, AGC-F) I hear the relay on 40 meters but not
> on 20.  SWR is normal, using VFO-A, nothing unusual.  When I back the power
> down to 5W or less, it stops clicking.
>
> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?  Probably got it into
> some strange mode again!  Although I'm fairly technically savvy, I am still
> getting to know my K3.
>
>

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[Dick Dievendorff-4]

Sounds like the carrier operated relay trying to protect your radio's front
end.  Perhaps a bit too much signal is reaching your receive antenna from
your transmit antenna.

You might want to consider a "front end protector" that limits the received
signal on your Rx antenna.  

Several have reported success with
https://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/ARRAY%20QST.pdf

KD9SV developed a "front end saver" that is sold by DX Engineering, see
http://www.dxengineering.com/search/brand/kd9sv-products  I have one of
these, incorporated into a receive antenna switch with preamps.

There are other solutions. In the old days we'd put a pair of diodes back to
back, but that's a particularly noisy solution...

73 de Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Chris
Hallinan
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 5:28 PM
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] Loud relay click on CW using RX ant only on some bands

Hi folks

I've been enjoying a new RX Loop antenna with my K3.  All of a sudden, every
dit and dah (every key press) produces a relay click whenever the RX ANT is
active.  I swear that wasn't happening before.  With very similar settings,
(VOX, QSK, ANT1 RX, AGC-F) I hear the relay on 40 meters but not on 20.  SWR
is normal, using VFO-A, nothing unusual.  When I back the power down to 5W
or less, it stops clicking.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?  Probably got it into
some strange mode again!  Although I'm fairly technically savvy, I am still
getting to know my K3.

Thanks,

Chris

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[Chris Hallinan]

Many thanks to all who replied.  Now that I know what it is, I have many
options to resolve it.  My verticals are quite close to the loop, so that
must be the issue.  I'll do a little homework and decide on the best course
of action.  Thanks again!

73,

Chris
K1AY

On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 9:19 PM, Dick Dievendorff <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sounds like the carrier operated relay trying to protect your radio's front
> end.  Perhaps a bit too much signal is reaching your receive antenna from
> your transmit antenna.
>
> You might want to consider a "front end protector" that limits the received
> signal on your Rx antenna.
>
> Several have reported success with
> https://www.arraysolutions.com/Products/ARRAY%20QST.pdf
>
> KD9SV developed a "front end saver" that is sold by DX Engineering, see
> http://www.dxengineering.com/search/brand/kd9sv-products  I have one of
> these, incorporated into a receive antenna switch with preamps.
>
> There are other solutions. In the old days we'd put a pair of diodes back
> to
> back, but that's a particularly noisy solution...
>
> 73 de Dick, K6KR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Chris
> Hallinan
> Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2015 5:28 PM
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] Loud relay click on CW using RX ant only on some bands
>
> Hi folks
>
> I've been enjoying a new RX Loop antenna with my K3.  All of a sudden,
> every
> dit and dah (every key press) produces a relay click whenever the RX ANT is
> active.  I swear that wasn't happening before.  With very similar settings,
> (VOX, QSK, ANT1 RX, AGC-F) I hear the relay on 40 meters but not on 20.
> SWR
> is normal, using VFO-A, nothing unusual.  When I back the power down to 5W
> or less, it stops clicking.
>
> Anyone know what I'm doing wrong and how to fix it?  Probably got it into
> some strange mode again!  Although I'm fairly technically savvy, I am still
> getting to know my K3.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>

--
Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
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Chris,

You've received solid advice from others about the front-end protection. I
happen to use the Array Solutions product and it works great. But as you
evaluate your possible solutions, consider that if your loop is near other
antennas or large metal objects, it will to some degree 'couple' to them
and your loop will not be working as effectively as it otherwise might.

I use several magnetic loops here for receiving, and even my small 40'
self-supporting tower acts as a noise/signal re-radiator, which is most
noticeable when I'm trying to use the deep nulls of the loop to eliminate
or reduce a local noise source. It frequently ends up with the best null
on the tower -- even though I know the tower is not the originator of the
noise. Since the null is on the tower instead, the noise from the true
origin is still being picked up by the loop. Fortunately, the loops are
small and easily moved, so you can experiment to find the best location.

An easy way to test if a particular antenna, such as your vertical, is
coupling to your loop is to alternatively short and then open the
connector on the feedline to your vertical while listening to the noise
floor of the band of interest on your K3 (the P3 helps a lot here too!).
(make sure your antenna is not in the NULL of your loop though) If you
hear a difference, there is some coupling. If not, you're probably not
getting enough coupling on receive to cause any problems -- though you may
still need to add the rx protection device to protect the K3 from
excessive rf while transmitting.

73, Dale WA8SRA

> Many thanks to all who replied.  Now that I know what it is, I have many
> options to resolve it.  My verticals are quite close to the loop, so that
> must be the issue.  I'll do a little homework and decide on the best
> course
> of action.  Thanks again!
>
> 73,
>
> Chris
> K1AY
>

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[Hank Garretson]

Help please.

If the K3 is protecting itself, other than the noise, why is an external
protection device needed?

73,

Hank, W6SX
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[Chris Hallinan]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Hank Garretson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Help please.
>
> If the K3 is protecting itself, other than the noise, why is an external
> protection device needed?
>

When you hear the relay clatter at 25-35WPM, you'll know why!  LOL

-Chris
K1AY
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[Oliver Dröse]

Because the COR relay only adds about 20-25 dB additional attenuation
which might not be enough. Besides this you always have the delay of the
relay switching. Even if it is quite fast (not sure about the COR in the
K3, might be 5 ms or 30 ms, haven't checked what type of relay Elecraft
used), there is a moment of no isolation so it could still destroy the
front-end.

Whenever you hear the COR activating you should take it as the last
warning and take according measures to cure the source of the problem,
not it's symptoms. ;-)

73, Olli - DH8BQA

Contest, DX & radio projects: http://www.dh8bqa.de


Am 13.04.2015 um 18:48 schrieb Hank Garretson:

> Help please.
>
> If the K3 is protecting itself, other than the noise, why is an external
> protection device needed?
>
> 73,
>
> Hank, W6SX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

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