M0XDF: Re: What difference?

[Steve Sacco NN4X]

David -


I was watching a special about Pink Floyd last evening, and reference
was made to the line "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English
way", and I thought of that as soon as I read your post.  :-)

WRT "Didn't the e-mail say why", would any reasonable person think it
would be too terribly onerous of a task, just prior to jetting away
to Japan, to zip off a quick shipping status update to customers who
not only are customers, but many of whom are also extending Elecraft
a rather substantial free loan?  Loyalty works both ways.  I find the
"going to Japan" excuse to be specious.

David, here's the thing: I'm noticing a pattern of behavior where
Elecraft has been less than forthcoming with respect to their
shipping schedule.  The latest one is the SECOND TIME IN A ROW (so
far, Elecraft is "2 for 2"), whereby the de facto notification of a
highly anticipated ship date was announced by Beta testers who where
sharing their impressions (I'd like to thank them for sharing those
impressions, BTW - ESPECIALLY about the noise blanker!!).

I don't find that behavior to be especially above board or respectful
of their customers.

Here's the next guess I have: Elecraft hasn't distributed the
hardware NB to their Beta testers.  I will guess that the next delay
will be because they want to make sure the NB is properly shaken down
by the Beta testers (and note that I'm not against proper testing!),
and will have to distribute those pieces, and await review by the testing crew.

WRT "what difference does it make", I don't consider that rude at
all, and I'm glad you asked.  I believe that I'm in a somewhat
special category.  I'm repairing my station from the damage of three
hurricanes which struck within 6 weeks in 2004.  Until I get the
antennas all fixed, I'll remain QRT, so for me, the answer is "not much".

That being said, I'm sure there are many folks who gave Elecraft a
deposit, with the expectation that they'd have a K3 at approximately
Elecraft's published shipping date.  They have a right to be informed
of shipping status in a timely manner, because THEY may decide that
they cannot wait.  That strikes me as entirely reasonable, and for
the life of me, I cannot imagine how anyone could disagree with
that.  You mention "trust", and I'll add that I subscribe to the
Russion saying of "Trust, but verify" (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_Verify )

There is a profound difference between being willing to wait, and
that being your choice, and being strung along.

Let's turn the question around: "How many people who have put down a
deposit have done so if they knew that they radios would be shipped
at least two months later than they originally thought?"  Maybe some,
maybe most, but I'm fairly certain, not "all".

It's very important to understand the distinction in what I'm saying:
I'm NOT advocating an accelerated, anything-less-than-100%-thorough
testing and development schedule. I AM insisting on open and timely
communications with their customers/bankers.  It seems the least that
Elecraft can do.


Regards, and 73,

Steve  NN4X
Saint Cloud, Florida, USA





Didn't the email say why, they got busy and had to go to the Japan show.

I don't wish to be rude or negative, but what difference does it make to the
delivery date if you had known two weeks ago?
Would you have cancelled your order?

I'm waiting too, on the edge of my seat. This has messed up some of my
planning around building and learning the rig (so I'll revise my plans for
the next couple of months - there's always plenty to do). But like many
others, I have placed my trust in Elecraft and would much rather wait for
'The best of the best' to be ready to ship.

I'm not an Elecraft worshiper (yet), this will be my first Elecraft product.
A good few of my local club (there ought to be a Q code for that) have K2's,
including I think, some of the earliest. I am very impressed with their
receive capabilities, so that's why I purchased the K3.




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[M0XDF]

Your points are well taken. I had rather expected the second announcement,
after the first. I guess I'm very English, a bit disappointed that I don't
yet have the K3, but hanging on, perhaps not quite desperate yet, but quiet
- yes!

I do understand about not getting a mail out - I am sometimes in the same
position, trying to get something done before I have to go away or meet a
deadline and "One thing drives out another", the end result being I forget
to send one.

Eric has said they will provide more regular f/b - I hope that will suffice.


On 31/8/07 12:59, "Steve Sacco NN4X" <[hidden email]> sent:
> I was watching a special about Pink Floyd last evening, and reference
> was made to the line "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English
> way", and I thought of that as soon as I read your post.  :-)
[snip]
--
When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so long and
so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see the ones which open
for us. -Alexander Graham Bell, inventor (1847-1922)



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[Brett gazdzinski-2]

I sold the 756 pro when the K3 was announced, and ordered one
right away.
I suspect many others sold their rig, or one of their better rigs
to pay for the K3. I think some even sold their K2 to get a K3!


I also thought the communication was very light, but put it down to
the small company bringing out a new and complex product.

Maybe they should have said nothing about the K3 till it was
ready to ship, and perhaps they were doing the people here
a favor in offering it, as I don't think they put ads in
QST and so on to the general public.
The shipping date was always listed as a TARGET date...

Being a small company, they get a boost from the deposits,
in exchange for the early shipping, that's fair.

I don't look at the deposit as a contract, but more like
helping them get the product out quicker than they might otherwise,
and to help them out in general, because they seem
like real nice people who make real nice stuff.


With people working 7 days a week and jetting around the US and the
world, it don't sound like they are goofing off.

I can imagine the amount of communications they must be dealing with,
vendors, assemblers, beta testers, friends, etc, and guess I would
rather they get on with it and maybe have some sort of life, before
they spend lots of time updating the web page and posting stuff here.
Maybe some forget that Elecraft is a SMALL bunch of hams and not
a big corporation?


It is only going to take 1 missing or wrong (or sub standard)
part from any vendor to delay the current ship date.

I notice how hard it has been for Elecraft to get the same parts
for the K2 runs, available parts change faster than the manual
can be updated. Cap values change, inductor sizes and colors change,
etc.

I ordered a K3 kit, and being the type of person I am, would like it
if Elecraft sent the parts to me as they became available, so I
could start playing with them, but that is a bit silly!

I say damn the impatient people, they should have fun and take the time
to enjoy what they are doing, its going to do nobody any good
if they ruin their health...

Brett
N2DTS

> Let's turn the question around: "How many people who have put down a
> deposit have done so if they knew that they radios would be shipped
> at least two months later than they originally thought?"  Maybe some,
> maybe most, but I'm fairly certain, not "all".
>
> It's very important to understand the distinction in what I'm saying:
> I'm NOT advocating an accelerated, anything-less-than-100%-thorough
> testing and development schedule. I AM insisting on open and timely
> communications with their customers/bankers.  It seems the least that
> Elecraft can do.
>
>
> Regards, and 73,
>
> Steve  NN4X
> Saint Cloud, Florida, USA
>

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[dj7mgq]

Hallo,

> "How many people who have put down a deposit have done so
> if they knew that they radios would be shipped at least
> two months later than they originally thought?"

If one, two or three months, I am not in the least surprised by the delays.  

I can not remember a single major product from Elecraft which did not experience
 delays, and with a really major product like the K3 delays were to be expected.
In full knowledge of this I ordered a K3 with various goodies and prepaid - not
50% but almost 100% (exchange rate was good at the time).

I am fairly happy with the information flow from the BTs and Aptos, even if
there could have been more. But then again, can there ever be enough? However to
suggest that Wayne and/or Eric have been disrespectful to us, strikes me,
personally, as unfair.

vy 73 de toby

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[Julian, G4ILO]

>From the size of your reply, Steve, I presume you are attempting to
win the argument the American way. :)

I can't disagree with the points you raise. I just think that it is
unreasonable to treat Elecraft the same way you would a faceless
corporation or utility company. It is a a small company run by fellow
hobbyists, other guys like us, who are not in it primarily for the
money (since I am sure with their skills they could make far more
making products for the commercial sector.) It's not as if anyone
reading this reflector could exactly have been surprised, reading
between the lines of what has been posted, that there was going to be
another delay. So I agree with David: what difference would it make if
the delay was made two weeks ago (when fewer of the variables
contributing to it would have been known) or at the last minute?

It's a sad fact of life that so many people feel once they pay money
for something they have the right to immediately complain if things
don't happen the way they hoped. (Actually, it happens even if they
get something free, as in software, one reason I gave up developing my
ham radio programs, but that's another matter.)

--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com


On 8/31/07, Steve Sacco NN4X <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> David -
>
>
> I was watching a special about Pink Floyd last evening, and reference
> was made to the line "Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English
> way", and I thought of that as soon as I read your post.  :-)
>
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[W2AGN-2]

Julian G4ILO wrote:
>>From the size of your reply, Steve, I presume you are attempting to
> win the argument the American way. :)

Sure glad you suffixed your Anti-American sentiment with the :)


>
> I can't disagree with the points you raise. I just think that it is
> unreasonable to treat Elecraft the same way you would a faceless
> corporation or utility company.

It is still a business, and should follow good business practices.

It is a a small company run by fellow
> hobbyists, other guys like us, who are not in it primarily for the
> money (since I am sure with their skills they could make far more
> making products for the commercial sector.)

On what to you base the "not for the money?" I am sure if there was not a profit
motive, the company would never have been founded.

It's not as if anyone
> reading this reflector could exactly have been surprised, reading
> between the lines of what has been posted, that there was going to be
> another delay. So I agree with David: what difference would it make if
> the delay was made two weeks ago (when fewer of the variables
> contributing to it would have been known) or at the last minute?

Because those who have paid a deposit should be KEPT INFORMED. I thought that
was one of the purposes of this reflector

>
> It's a sad fact of life that so many people feel once they pay money
> for something they have the right to immediately complain if things
> don't happen the way they hoped. (Actually, it happens even if they
> get something free, as in software, one reason I gave up developing my
> ham radio programs, but that's another matter.)

Yep, if you pay money for something, you expect to get what you paid for. (Maybe
that is just a American" outlook?)


This is a moot point since Wayne and Eric did, finally, answer the questions on
the delay, and appear to have instituted a policy of better communication.

--
John - W2AGN
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[Julian, G4ILO]

On 8/31/07, W2AGN <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sure glad you suffixed your Anti-American sentiment with the :)

It was a legitimate response to Steve's dig at "the English
way".

> It is still a business, and should follow good business practices.

And I believe it does. But few businesses are perfect, especially when
they are small ones with not enough personnel to deal with spikes in
the workload.

> On what to you base the "not for the money?" I am sure if there was not a profit
> motive, the company would never have been founded.

I didn't say there wasn't a profit motive. I was suggesting they could
make a lot more making other stuff.

> Because those who have paid a deposit should be KEPT INFORMED. I thought that
> was one of the purposes of this reflector

And, short of specific day by day updates to the shipping dates, we
have been kept informed.

> Yep, if you pay money for something, you expect to get what you paid for. (Maybe
> that is just a American" outlook?)

I do expect to get what I paid for. But no contract was offered or
entered into regarding a shipping date. The only dates that have been
mentioned were target dates. And targets, as I thought everyone knew,
can be missed.

If you're so dissatisfied with this, why don't you just ask for your
deposit back?
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com
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[Thom LaCosta]

On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Julian G4ILO wrote:

>
> If you're so dissatisfied with this, why don't you just ask for your
> deposit back?

Even better....he could trade his place in line with someone who could reimburse
him for his deposit....as there seem to be many folks who not only understand
and accept the delays, but want their K3 sooner than later.

73 k3hrn
Thom,EIEIO
Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer

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[W2AGN-2]

Thom LaCosta wrote:

> On Fri, 31 Aug 2007, Julian G4ILO wrote:
>
>>
>> If you're so dissatisfied with this, why don't you just ask for your
>> deposit back?
>
> Even better....he could trade his place in line with someone who could
> reimburse him for his deposit....as there seem to be many folks who not
> only understand and accept the delays, but want their K3 sooner than later.
>
> 73 k3hrn
> Thom,EIEIO
> Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer

You know, I would think that people that passed a Ham Radio exam would be able
to read! At NO time did I complain about the delays, but I did complain about
the lack of communication about the delays. As Julian chose to omit from his
pithy comments, I did note that it appears Wayne and Eric have solved that problem.

--
John - W2AGN
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[Fred N. van Kempen]

CQ CQ CQ

Can we all relax a bit and stop bickering about the
delays, the lack of communications about them and
whether it's a Brit of Yank thing to 'claim one's
right' ?

Elecraft have acknowledged that they should have
more (and better) communications to their customers,
and they have indeed sent out a fair explanation
of the goings-on.

Thanks y'all,

de Fred PA4YBR/KA4YBR

PSE SK

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[Steve Sacco NN4X]

Toby -

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Regards & 73,

Steve



At 09:03 AM 8/31/2007, [hidden email] wrote:

>Hallo,
>
> > "How many people who have put down a deposit have done so
> > if they knew that they radios would be shipped at least
> > two months later than they originally thought?"
>
>If one, two or three months, I am not in the least surprised by the delays.
>
>I can not remember a single major product from Elecraft which did
>not experience
>  delays, and with a really major product like the K3 delays were to
> be expected.
>In full knowledge of this I ordered a K3 with various goodies and
>prepaid - not
>50% but almost 100% (exchange rate was good at the time).
>
>I am fairly happy with the information flow from the BTs and Aptos, even if
>there could have been more. But then again, can there ever be
>enough? However to
>suggest that Wayne and/or Eric have been disrespectful to us, strikes me,
>personally, as unfair.
>
>vy 73 de toby

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[Julian, G4ILO]

> the lack of communication about the delays. As Julian chose to omit from his
> pithy comments, I did note that it appears Wayne and Eric have solved that problem.

So why prolong the thread by going on about it?
--
Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392  K3 s/n: ???
G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

I apologize again for any lack in prompt communications of our K3
shipping status. We get over optimistic at times, and to be honest, some
of the problems with suppliers cropped up just during the past week,
while I was in Japan.

Yes, we're a relatively small Ham Radio company, and we are fielding a
flood of inquiries and orders on the K3. I receive a large  number of
personal K3 emails with very detailed questions every day that I can not
directly answer. (We try to answer all the questions in our K3FAQ and
via postings here.) Just to give you a feel for the email load here, I
spend the first three hours of -every- morning at the keyboard
corresponding with vendors, our engineers, manufacturing team,  field
testers, sales group, magazines, customers etc. Email is a fantastic
time saver, but the load is still quite high. Between my three computers
(Office, Home, laptop) and Treo Phone/pda, I'm never far from email and
phone calls. Life certainly isn't boring in Aptos! (My wife keeps
reminding me of this..)

By the way, we've hired a number if new employees in engineering,
manufacturing and admin to handle the increased business. We've got a
great team, and we're working hard to get a quality K3 into your hands
as quickly as possible. There certainly is the risk of additional
delays, primarily from missing parts and vendor delays, but we are
working hard to eliminate these as they crop up. (Our vendors have now
learned that we work weekends too..)

As I mentioned in my status email, we will be posting weekly updates, on
every Wednesday, until we ship. Hopefully that will keep everyone fully
informed. Stay tuned!

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
--

P.S. Wearing my list moderator hat - Let's keep the discussion civil and
please no snide remarks at one another.

Of course feel free to post any concerns about Elecraft. It is OK to be
critical of us (we actually want to hear this). That's the only way we
can find out about many problems and correct them.
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[Bill Johnson-10]

For anyone who is upset with the delay, I will gladly give you your
down-payment and substitute delivery to me in your place if Elecraft is
willing to do so.  After reading what has gone into the rig, I am more
interested than ever and have to wait until full production gets underway in
November.  I have been a test builder for the K2 and KX1 and understand the
behind scenes issues.  I am sure the enormity of the K3 project and the
expanding team size has lead to less than perfect communications... so
criticism is fair, but if you're put out, let me know: I would love to buy
into your position of being in the first or second run.

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 #35, KX1 #35


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[k6dgw]

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
> I apologize again for any lack in prompt communications of our K3
> shipping status. We get over optimistic at times, and to be honest, some
> of the problems with suppliers cropped up just during the past week,
> while I was in Japan.

Throughout this somewhat long [and a bit repetitive] thread, one
question keeps popping into my head:

"When was the last time your questions on the Yaesu, Icom, or Kenwood
email lists were personally answered by one of the top two guys in the
Company who actually designed the radio?"

of course begging a second question:

"Do they even HAVE an email list for support like this one?"

My K3 will be in Prod Run #3 or later, I haven't figured out how I want
it configured yet, the choices are somewhat daunting.  *Off-list* advice
and dialog over options welcome.  In the meantime, I'll enjoy my K2 and
KX1 while summer still hangs around.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7
- www.cqp.org
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[Dave Van Wallaghen]

Absolutely right Fred. I've worked in the computer IT business for a long
time and now in the fire service (which is like waiting for molasses to run
to get anything done IT or otherwise). I find the access to the Elecraft
premium players on this list plenty of communication in regards to the K3.

I'm in the second run and could care less if it is a month, or more, late in
shipping after their initial prediction of mid-September when I order mine
in May. I viewed the date then as a target date and knew that it may not be
feasible with the multiple vendors involved. I thought the communication has
been fine to date, and wouldn't expect anything more. After meeting these
folks first hand, I can tell you that all of you that ordered a K3 will get
the best rig for your money. And that waiting until the small vendor
problems are worked out and running in a smooth pattern, means that you will
receive exactly what was promised.

These people are a small organization devoted to ham radio (yes, they are a
business to make profit - who would take on this engineering effort for
less????) but they have designed this thing based on what you - true ham
operators wanted. Why not let them add features suggested by FT's and add
firmware suggestions while waiting for the vendor issues to level out.

I'm just as geeked to get my K3, but I have no problem waiting until they
think it is ready to ship. And to quell the communication issues on the
list, I believe they have communicated as well as can be expected. Just take
a look at any other radio company or any other industry related company, the
access you have here is unheard of, and based on the number of very hard
working people in Aptos, you are receiving the best communication (and
product) for your buck.

IMHO, no apology necessary Eric (or Wayne, or Lyle, or ...)

Sorry, I just couldn't help the small rant.

Dave W8FGU

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Fred Jensen
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 6:31 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] M0XDF: Re: What difference?
>
> Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:
> > I apologize again for any lack in prompt communications of our K3
> > shipping status. We get over optimistic at times, and to be honest, some
> > of the problems with suppliers cropped up just during the past week,
> > while I was in Japan.
>
> Throughout this somewhat long [and a bit repetitive] thread, one
> question keeps popping into my head:
>
> "When was the last time your questions on the Yaesu, Icom, or Kenwood
> email lists were personally answered by one of the top two guys in the
> Company who actually designed the radio?"
>
> of course begging a second question:
>
> "Do they even HAVE an email list for support like this one?"
>
> My K3 will be in Prod Run #3 or later, I haven't figured out how I want
> it configured yet, the choices are somewhat daunting.  *Off-list* advice
> and dialog over options welcome.  In the meantime, I'll enjoy my K2 and
> KX1 while summer still hangs around.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2007 CQP Oct 6-7
> - www.cqp.org
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