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Mac Clock Question

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Richard-6

Mac Clock Question

Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on my K3S, I’d like to know:

1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra, 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?

2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?

Cheers!

Richard Kunc — W4KBX

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stengrevics

Re: Mac Clock Question

Richard,

I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter “us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you will be good to go.

You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make sure you are synched - takes 30 seconds.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on my K3S, I’d like to know:
>
> 1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra, 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?
>
> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Mac Clock Question

My general thought on computer time accuracy......start decoding
stations. Watch the DT value of those decoded. I find if the majority
are less than <0.5 +/- then your computer clock is good. If most
stations decodes are greater than >0.5 +/-, then I'd look for a better
time reference. I'm not a MAC user so I can't comment on a source.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/20/2018 10:55 AM, John Stengrevics wrote:

> Richard,
>
> I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter “us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you will be good to go.
>
> You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make sure you are synched - takes 30 seconds.
>
> John
> WA1EAZ
>
>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on my K3S, I’d like to know:
>>
>> 1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra, 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?
>>
>> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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> ______________________________________________________________
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Carl Yaffey

Re: Mac Clock Question

In reply to this post by Richard-6

>
> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?
>
> Cheers!
>
> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Carl Yaffey K8NU
Recording studio.
[hidden email]
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com

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Dale Chayes

Re: Mac Clock Question

In reply to this post by stengrevics

> On Feb 20, 2018, at 12:06 , Walter Underwood <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Should not need to unlock and relock daily. In fact, that could hurt time synchronization.

Indeed, restarting runs the risk of loosing (over-writing) the calibration (local clock drift rate) that NTP uses to keep the local clock accurate.

From my experience, I would put the idea of “restart every day” in the same category as old guidance about primitive operating systems that some folks used to recommend re-booting every day in order to prevent crashes.

> Mac OS runs NTP, which continually adjusts the time.

I _think_ every modern OS uses an NTP implementation or at least has one available.

Some light:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol>
and not so light:
http://www.ntp.org/ <http://www.ntp.org/>
https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html <https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html>
reading for those who don’t know about NTP.

I’d be interested to hear about ones that:
a) don’t have an NTP implementation available and/or
b) have one that does not work reliably

One issue I’d keep an eye on is whether your OS (and it’s NTP daemon) will tell you if it’s having trouble syncing.

With a good NTP implementation, you could go months (or years) with no significant time of day error and then loose your time sync and slowly drift off to the point that it matters for your application.

You can also run into this problem if you are off the ‘net and the NTP daemon can’t get to the NTP source often enough.

-Dale

>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 8:55 AM, John Stengrevics <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Richard,
>>
>> I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter “us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you will be good to go.
>>
>> You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make sure you are synched - takes 30 seconds.
>>
>> John
>> WA1EAZ
>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on my K3S, I’d like to know:
>>>
>>> 1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra, 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?
>>>
>>> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Detrick Merz

Re: Mac Clock Question

Unfortunately, with some recently releases of OSX, Apple decided to tweak
the NTP daemon to "save battery power." This results in the clock drifting
significantly from our perspective, but "not enough for the average user to
care about." It can definitely be enough for JT modes to care about. I
tracked my clock accuracy at one point on OSX 10.9 (I think), and as I
recall I saw it drift up to 20 seconds at some points in time.

I'm unsure if it's been improved in the most recent macOS releases, but the
idea of forcing a restart of NTP either daily, or whenever you fire up
WSJT-X, hasn't necessarily been as much of a faux pas as one might think.

-detrick
K4IZ

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Dale Chayes <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> > On Feb 20, 2018, at 12:06 , Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Should not need to unlock and relock daily. In fact, that could hurt
> time synchronization.
>
> Indeed, restarting runs the risk of loosing (over-writing) the
> calibration (local clock drift rate) that NTP uses to keep the local clock
> accurate.
>
> From my experience, I would put the idea of “restart every day” in the
> same category as old guidance about primitive operating systems that some
> folks used to recommend re-booting every day in order to prevent crashes.
>
> > Mac OS runs NTP, which continually adjusts the time.
>
> I _think_ every modern OS uses an NTP implementation or at least has one
> available.
>
> Some light:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol>
> and not so light:
> http://www.ntp.org/ <http://www.ntp.org/>
> https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html <
> https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html>
> reading for those who don’t know about NTP.
>
>
> I’d be interested to hear about ones that:
> a) don’t have an NTP implementation available and/or
> b) have one that does not work reliably
>
> One issue I’d keep an eye on is whether your OS (and it’s NTP daemon) will
> tell you if it’s having trouble syncing.
>
> With a good NTP implementation, you could go months (or years) with no
> significant time of day error and then loose your time sync and slowly
> drift off to the point that it matters for your application.
>
> You can also run into this problem if you are off the ‘net and the NTP
> daemon can’t get to the NTP source often enough.
>
> -Dale
>
> >
> > wunder
> > K6WRU
> > Walter Underwood
> > CM87wj
> > http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
> >
> >> On Feb 20, 2018, at 8:55 AM, John Stengrevics <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Richard,
> >>
> >> I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter “
> us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you will be good to
> go.
> >>
> >> You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make sure you
> are synched - takes 30 seconds.
> >>
> >> John
> >> WA1EAZ
> >>
> >>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on
> my K3S, I’d like to know:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra,
> 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?
> >>>
> >>> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?
> >>>
> >>> Cheers!
> >>>
> >>> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Mac Clock Question

In reply to this post by Richard-6

I run my iMac 24x7, and do have it configured to use the ntp.org pool servers, and it appearsto do the trick for the various WSJT-X modes that I use on HF. However, even when I doreboot occasionally, any transient loss of sync to the NTP servers doesn't seriously affectme when I use WSJT-X. OTOH, since I spend a lot more time listening than transmitting,while searching for "new ones", NTP has plenty of time to sync back up :-)
I suppose if you want to really go overboard, you could get yourself a GPSDO and theninstall gpsd (GPSd — Put your GPS on the net!) and NTPsec (Welcome to NTPsec)and then you'd not only be good-to-go for the WSJT-X modes, but you could then serveup a reference for the rest of us. Both of those can, AFAICT, be built for Windows,Linux and macOS, assuming you have the software development tools (compiler,linker, libraries, etc.) installed.
BTW, NTPsec is a new/rewritten implementation of NTP that is far more secure and robust,and does not need gpsd or a GPSDO to use. If you're concerned that your currentOS/computing environment might not be behaving as well as you'd like with respect to NTP,it might be worthwhile to take a look at NTPsec.
Brandy, N1HO

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Stephen G4SJP

Re: Mac Clock Question

In reply to this post by Detrick Merz

My 2012 Mac mini running 10.13.3 keeps within a few tens of milliseconds
every time I check. It uses Apple's own time servers, in my case
time.euro.apple.com

Works for me,

73 Stephen G4SJP

On 20 February 2018 at 18:42, Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> With a terminal window open, run “ntpq -p” to get a list of current NTP
> peers and the offset in milliseconds.
>
> $ ntpq -p
> remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset
> jitter
> ============================================================
> ==================
> +10.74.16.53 129.6.15.28 2 u 522 1024 377 25.148 -0.522
> 3.996
> *10.74.16.54 128.138.141.172 2 u 794 1024 377 23.834 -2.152
> 0.769
>
> Almost exactly 25 years ago, I wrote a more complicated NTP info script.
> At the time “groper” implied that it was groping around in the dark. Times
> have changed.
>
> https://opensource.apple.com/source/ntp/ntp-92.30.1/
> scripts/ntp-groper.auto.html
>
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
>
> > On Feb 20, 2018, at 10:23 AM, Detrick Merz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, with some recently releases of OSX, Apple decided to tweak
> > the NTP daemon to "save battery power." This results in the clock
> drifting
> > significantly from our perspective, but "not enough for the average user
> to
> > care about." It can definitely be enough for JT modes to care about. I
> > tracked my clock accuracy at one point on OSX 10.9 (I think), and as I
> > recall I saw it drift up to 20 seconds at some points in time.
> >
> > I'm unsure if it's been improved in the most recent macOS releases, but
> the
> > idea of forcing a restart of NTP either daily, or whenever you fire up
> > WSJT-X, hasn't necessarily been as much of a faux pas as one might think.
> >
> > -detrick
> > K4IZ
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Dale Chayes <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 12:06 , Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Should not need to unlock and relock daily. In fact, that could hurt
> >> time synchronization.
> >>
> >> Indeed, restarting runs the risk of loosing (over-writing) the
> >> calibration (local clock drift rate) that NTP uses to keep the local
> clock
> >> accurate.
> >>
> >> From my experience, I would put the idea of “restart every day” in the
> >> same category as old guidance about primitive operating systems that
> some
> >> folks used to recommend re-booting every day in order to prevent
> crashes.
> >>
> >>> Mac OS runs NTP, which continually adjusts the time.
> >>
> >> I _think_ every modern OS uses an NTP implementation or at least has one
> >> available.
> >>
> >> Some light:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol <
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_Time_Protocol>
> >> and not so light:
> >> http://www.ntp.org/ <http://www.ntp.org/>
> >> https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html <
> >> https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/papers.html>
> >> reading for those who don’t know about NTP.
> >>
> >>
> >> I’d be interested to hear about ones that:
> >> a) don’t have an NTP implementation available and/or
> >> b) have one that does not work reliably
> >>
> >> One issue I’d keep an eye on is whether your OS (and it’s NTP daemon)
> will
> >> tell you if it’s having trouble syncing.
> >>
> >> With a good NTP implementation, you could go months (or years) with no
> >> significant time of day error and then loose your time sync and slowly
> >> drift off to the point that it matters for your application.
> >>
> >> You can also run into this problem if you are off the ‘net and the NTP
> >> daemon can’t get to the NTP source often enough.
> >>
> >> -Dale
> >>
> >>>
> >>> wunder
> >>> K6WRU
> >>> Walter Underwood
> >>> CM87wj
> >>> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 8:55 AM, John Stengrevics <
> [hidden email]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Richard,
> >>>>
> >>>> I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter “
> >> us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you will be good
> to
> >> go.
> >>>>
> >>>> You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make sure you
> >> are synched - takes 30 seconds.
> >>>>
> >>>> John
> >>>> WA1EAZ
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on
> >> my K3S, I’d like to know:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra,
> >> 10.12) good enough for modes like JT65 and FT8?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and
> use?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Richard Kunc — W4KBX
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>>
> >>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >>
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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Bill Frantz

Re: Mac Clock Question

In reply to this post by stengrevics

I just run my Internet connected Mac with the defaults and I
have no problems with timing on FT8. I use the "Apple
Americas/U.S. (time.apple.com)" NTP server which works fine. I
don't go through any of the unlock reenter stuff. I just use it
as Apple delivered it. If I go to Europe or Asia it's probably
worth selecting the local NTP server.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 2/20/18 at 8:55 AM, [hidden email] (John
Stengrevics) wrote:

>I run a Mac here. Go to System Preferences, Unlock, enter
>“us.pool.ntp.org <http://us.pool.ntp.org/>”, Lock and you
>will be good to go.
>You should Unlock, delete, and renter the above daily to make
>sure you are synched - takes 30 seconds.

>>On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:49 AM, Richard <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>Before I get into the list of problems I’m having using WSJT-X FT8 on my K3S, I’d like to know:
>>
>>1. Is the automatic clock setting in my Mac mini (running Sierra, 10.12) good enough for modes like
>JT65 and FT8?
>>
>>2. If not, what’s a good reliable time sync app I can download and use?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"Web security is like medicine - trying to
do good for
408-356-8506 |an evolved body of kludges" - Mark Miller
www.pwpconsult.com |

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