Elecraft

Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

Classic

List

Threaded

48 messages Options

123

wayne burdick

Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

Administrator

Hi all,

Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna for use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a 10-meter coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen pieces, to a dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall) campmate. The variety (and price range) of such antennas is staggering.

I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on the higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal best is JA from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48" whip. These antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces, taking very little space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room for a couple of 25' wires, adapters, and weights for times when there are trees available.

But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up, and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.

One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such as the KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a full band or even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach is to coarse-tune the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do cleanup.

Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)

I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting documentation is too voluminous for the forum (attached photos, etc.), feel free to email me directly.

If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup posting.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Dale LeDoux

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

I’m interested in where this one’s going. Restrictions on my living accommodations relegate me to an indoor wire. I managed to work coast to coast with the KX3 and JT65 using its internal tuner. I’d like more ideas.

dale
W5OHM

> On Jul 19, 2015, at 11:45 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna for use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a 10-meter coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen pieces, to a dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall) campmate. The variety (and price range) of such antennas is staggering.
>
> I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on the higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal best is JA from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48" whip. These antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces, taking very little space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room for a couple of 25' wires, adapters, and weights for times when there are trees available.
>
> But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up, and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.
>
> One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such as the KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a full band or even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach is to coarse-tune the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do cleanup.
>
> Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)
>
> I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting documentation is too voluminous for the forum (attached photos, etc.), feel free to email me directly.
>
> If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup posting.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Barry K3NDM

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
From time to time, my radio club collars me to do a program at one of our meetings. I usually lecture on antennas targeting the new ham. There are two points I try to leave the crowd with:

1. There is no such thing as the perfect antenna. Each is a compromise of some sort.
2. No ham has too many antennas.

Efficiency, size, effectiveness, cost, and bandwidth are all inter-connected. I wish you great success in your quest. I'll be watching as I too would like to discover the perfect antenna. Having said this, have you tried a vertical dipole fed with open wire or ladder line? You gain by having a low angle antenna with low transmission line loss, and it requires only one support.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

----- Original Message -----

From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: "elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "KX3" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 12:45:47 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

Hi all,

Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna for use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a 10-meter coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen pieces, to a dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall) campmate. The variety (and price range) of such antennas is staggering.

I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on the higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal best is JA from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48" whip. These antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces, taking very little space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room for a couple of 25' wires, adapters, and weights for times when there are trees available.

But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up, and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.

One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such as the KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a full band or even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach is to coarse-tune the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do cleanup.

Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)

I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting documentation is too voluminous for the forum (attached photos, etc.), feel free to email me directly.

If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup posting.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Matt Zilmer-3

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

My favorite is the "bush sloper". To launch it, I use an E-Z Hang
(slingshot / fishing reel).

The scrub on SoCal mountains is usable to support an end-fed wire,
facing downhill. I recommend a counterpoise facing uphill. The
end-fed can be 50 to 200 feet long (145 feet seems best all-around
match using the ATU). I use a throway fishing weight to be the E-Z
Hang projectile, tugging the #24 wire along until it bashes into a
plant or the ground. The weight is attached to the wire via a short
piece of thin monofilament, so it can break away without stretching
the wire.

I attach the radiator and counterpoise directly to the KX3 via a BNC -
Banana adapter.

When done, I just spool up the #24, usually losing the fishing weight
in the process. If it's a multiple hilltop day, I have half a dozen
of these in my pack.

Being a sloper, it has some forward gain but a fairly high angle
because of proximity to the ground. SoCal mountain "ground" is a
rather vague concept though and I've made a few dozen DX contacts
running 2-3W, CW. I have WAS done this way, minus RI and VT.

I've had some luck using a "tilt up" telescoping aluminum 33 foot
vertical on 40 and 15m, but the dern thing is unwieldy and heavy to
pack around, and at 5.5 feet long (collapsed) only fits on my large
hunting pack. I'd sure like to see a portable multi-band vertical
that's easier to lug around than this, maybe one that collapses to
less than four feet and weighs less than three pounds. The 33 footer
weighs almost ten pounds.... I've stopped punishing myself, and don't
use it much any more.

No fish stories today, sorry.

73,
matt
W6NIA

On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 09:45:47 -0700, you wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna for use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a 10-meter coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen pieces, to a dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall) campmate. The variety (and price range) of such antennas is staggering.
>
>I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on the higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal best is JA from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48" whip. These antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces, taking very little space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room for a couple of 25' wires, adapters, and weights for times when there are trees available.
>
>But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up, and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.
>
>One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such as the KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a full band or even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach is to coarse-tune the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do cleanup.
>
>Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)
>
>I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting documentation is too voluminous for the forum (attached photos, etc.), feel free to email me directly.
>
>If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup posting.
>
>73,
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Matt Zilmer, W6NIA
--
"Always store beer in a dark place." -R. Heinlein

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

bill.va3ol

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I am not an antenna purist and will use whatever is handy but my favourite
antenna (at the moment) are a 44 foot Center feed zepp with tv twinlead and
a 4:1 balun or if trees are not available I really like my semi homebrew
center loaded vertical using a 12 inch base rod, a Wolf River Silver Bullet
coil and a collapsible military whip for 80/40 or just a 36 inch whip for
20 - 10 if I want to be stealthy. I had a buddy stick but it is to finicky
to tune, whereas the Wolf river coil just slides down for maximum noise and
let the KX3/KXPA take the last bit of swr out. For radials you can't beat
the tape measure radials.

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna for
> use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a 10-meter
> coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen pieces, to a
> dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall) campmate. The variety
> (and price range) of such antennas is staggering.
>
> I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on the
> higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal best is JA
> from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48" whip. These
> antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces, taking very little
> space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room for a couple of 25' wires,
> adapters, and weights for times when there are trees available.
>
> But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something
> both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down to a
> length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up, and earn a
> passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.
>
> One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take
> maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such as the
> KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a full band or
> even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach is to coarse-tune
> the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do cleanup.
>
> Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly
> designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a
> small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)
>
> I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field
> experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't
> embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting documentation is
> too voluminous for the forum (attached photos, etc.), feel free to email me
> directly.
>
> If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup posting.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Bill W4ZV

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I recently used a 20m EFHW to operate from 12,300' Trail Ridge (SOTA W0C/FR-123) on June 28. I wanted a very quick activation due to thunderstorm concerns so I took a 15' mast (collapsible to ~18 inches), mounted it to a cairn of stones with a bungee and attached the far end to a stone. I made 6 contacts in 6 minutes and then beat a hasty retreat down the summit. About an hour earlier and 60 miles south of me several hikers were struck by lightning as they descended Mt. Bierstadt (see below).

http://www.examiner.com/article/lightning-safety-tips-for-mountain-travel

Fast and simple is my rule when operating above timberline in the summer!

73, Bill W4ZV

daleputnam

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by bill.va3ol

Used to be a fellow that owned and operated motel in a small town in Ne.
He was in a fringe area for tv.. and didn't want to have the guests bothered with
anything more than just the fringe (noise and snow) reception on all but one tv channnel.
SO.. his ham antenna was alternatively the 2nd story window screen (metal), and the bed springs, on the second floor.
Yes.. they worked better with a good ground. He didn't contest, so it was a manual tuner. And it worked
right nice. No one knew... but the fellows he talked to.. and after 6 - 8 months of chatter.. he might let you know what
his antenna was.
Neat guy! Nifty antenna!

Have a great day,

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

k6dgw

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Usefulness of any 10 meter antenna is declining. :-)

FWIW:
My Buddipole weighed 17 lbs, and I sold it and used the proceeds to get
an AlexLoop. It weighs about 1.6 lbs, less if I take it out of the neat
canvas case, 2 lbs with the lightweight tripod. I like it a lot. I can
set it up in less than 5 min, it is pretty much immune to anyone's
definition of "ground," and it works very well. Touchy to tune on 40,
not so bad on 30 and easy on 20 and the rest. Very narrow BW, I sit
under it so I can reach up and tune it using the K2 SWR indication.
It's pricey, but you can make one yourself for about 1/10th the cost.
Just remember, these guys are resonant transformers and MUST be at
resonance so bypass the ATU.

The EFHW is very popular with the SOTA crowd, extremely light, only
needs one support. Mine works best with a 6" pigtail hanging off the
shield of the BNC connector. They too seem to be fairly immune to
"ground," low current down where you are.

My meager experience is that any antenna you can make resonant will
probably perform a little better than a random wire, but I've made a lot
of KX1 Q's with a 26 ft wire and counterpoise made from a piece of RG-58.

KT5X believes [and I don't disagree] that vertical ground planes on
mountain tops tend to radiate downhill which isn't real useful. If
you're above the timberline, you're probably on a mountain.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 7/19/2015 9:45 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Have you found the "perfect" above-the-treeline backpacking antenna
> for use with your KX3 or other small rig? I've used everything from a
> 10-meter coat hanger whip, to a yagi that breaks down into two dozen
> pieces, to a dipole held up at the center by a willing (and tall)
> campmate. The variety (and price range) of such antennas is
> staggering.
>
> I've had pretty amazing results using short, base-loaded antennas on
> the higher bands--especially when conditions were good. My personal
> best is JA from W6 on 15-meter SSB, running 3 watts to a Maldol 48"
> whip. These antennas collapse and break down into just two pieces,
> taking very little space in my lightweight go-bag. This leaves room
> for a couple of 25' wires, adapters, and weights for times when there
> are trees available.
>
> But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues:
> something both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would
> break down to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20
> meters and up, and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.
>
> One other key factor, at least with the KX3/KX1/K1 genre, is to take
> maximal advantage of the rig's internal ATU. A wide-range ATU (such
> as the KXAT3) can turn a narrow-banded antenna into one that covers a
> full band or even multiple bands, within limits. One general approach
> is to coarse-tune the antenna's own inductance, then let the ATU do
> cleanup.
>
> Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A
> cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30
> wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some
> combination of these?)
>
> I'd be interested in hearing about your antenna theories and field
> experiences, backed up by entertaining fish stories, if they aren't
> embellished to an embarrassing degree. If your supporting
> documentation is too voluminous for the forum (attached photos,
> etc.), feel free to email me directly.
>
> If anything substantive or surprising emerges, I'll do a followup
> posting.
>
> 73, Wayne N6KR

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

I use two different portable antennas, One is the super antennas yp3 3 element antenna and the other is the TW 2010 antenna. If i'm going to be portable for a while Ill put the 3 element antenna up. Its pretty fiddly and changing bands is a pain. Its one band at a time. The performance is very good and it really lightweight and small to pack.The TW antenna works great and takes 5 minutes to set up. In a nutshell it's a DX antenna. Distant stations are worked with amazing frequency for such a small antenna. Its my favorite portable. Its actually larger to pack than the 3 element without the mast. However, that fades when its quickly set up and working. Like any antenna, keep them away from noise sources and in the clear and the results will be good.
George NE2I

On Sunday, July 19, 2015 7:21 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Usefulness of any 10 meter antenna is declining. :-)

FWIW:
My Buddipole weighed 17 lbs, and I sold it and used the proceeds to get
an AlexLoop. It weighs about 1.6 lbs, less if I take it out of the neat
canvas case, 2 lbs with the lightweight tripod. I like it a lot. I can
set it up in less than 5 min, it is pretty much immune to anyone's
definition of "ground," and it works very well. Touchy to tune on 40,
not so bad on 30 and easy on 20 and the rest. Very narrow BW, I sit
under it so I can reach up and tune it using the K2 SWR indication.
It's pricey, but you can make one yourself for about 1/10th the cost.
Just remember, these guys are resonant transformers and MUST be at
resonance so bypass the ATU.

The EFHW is very popular with the SOTA crowd, extremely light, only
needs one support. Mine works best with a 6" pigtail hanging off the
shield of the BNC connector. They too seem to be fairly immune to
"ground," low current down where you are.

My meager experience is that any antenna you can make resonant will
probably perform a little better than a random wire, but I've made a lot
of KX1 Q's with a 26 ft wire and counterpoise made from a piece of RG-58.

KT5X believes [and I don't disagree] that vertical ground planes on
mountain tops tend to radiate downhill which isn't real useful. If
you're above the timberline, you're probably on a mountain.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 7/19/2015 9:45 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

RICHH

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

My two cents worth. My favorite antenna for SOTA
turns out to be the 20 meter Endfedz followed by the Alex Loop.
I have done a receive comparison between the Alex loop , Endfedz and a full
size 20 meter vertical with radials. In this sketchy little test the
Verical came out best followed very closely by the other two antennas.

It was amazing to see how well the 3 foot diameter loop performed.

I guess I would like a 20 meter 2 elment beam that sets up in 2 minutes and
weighs two pounds. If it could pop open and shut like an umbrella that
would work for me. Any ideas.
Richard
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

Richard,

Two properly spaced and phased radiators are all that is necessary for a
2 element beam - two Alexloops, 2 verticals, two dipoles, etc.
While setup in 2 minutes may not be practical at 20 meters, it is
practical at 2 meters, and you may even devise something that looks like
an umbrella. Think of the Hex Beam - 2 elements that sort of look like
an inverted umbrella.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/19/2015 9:43 PM, Richard Donner wrote:
> I guess I would like a 20 meter 2 elment beam that sets up in 2 minutes and
> weighs two pounds. If it could pop open and shut like an umbrella that
> would work for me. Any ideas.
> Richard
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Tony Estep

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 9:12 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Richard,
>
> Two properly spaced and phased radiators....

=============
I have a terrific wire-beam antenna that rolls up into a package that
weighs only a couple of pounds. However, it requires one rope into a tree
or other type of sky-hook.

It is good for 20, 17, 15, 12 and 10 and is bi-directional. It's a form of
W8JK, but is fed at the end and has series capacitors in each radiator to
make it work over a 2:1 frequency range. I designed it with EZNEC and I'll
send the model to anybody who wants it.

It's fed with window line and requires a balun at the transmitter. It takes
a good tuner to match it, but the Elecraft tuners can do the job.

Anyway, it doesn't meet Wayne's request for a free-standing antenna, but
it's a cool field-day antenna, especially here in the middle of the country
where a bi-directional antenna is a good thing.

Tony KT0NY
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by k6dgw

It's not going to radiate any lower than the horizon, and that kind of
low angle is extremely useful for long distances. That can be
appropriate even for QRP, although it might be more propagation
dependent versus making some high angle short skip contacts. If I want
to see how far I can work when backpacking, I'm going with a vertical
unless the ground conductivity is just plain awful.

Dave AB7E

On 7/19/2015 5:07 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

>
>
> KT5X believes [and I don't disagree] that vertical ground planes on
> mountain tops tend to radiate downhill which isn't real useful. If
> you're above the timberline, you're probably on a mountain.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
> - www.cqp.org

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

Dave,

Re "It's not going to radiate any lower than the
horizon..." -- I'd swear, based on on-the-air
results, that I've had a few antennas which
achieved that dubious distinction :-)

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/19/15 9:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
> It's not going to radiate any lower than the
> horizon, and that kind of low angle is extremely
> useful for long distances. That can be
> appropriate even for QRP, although it might be
> more propagation dependent versus making some
> high angle short skip contacts. If I want to
> see how far I can work when backpacking, I'm
> going with a vertical unless the ground
> conductivity is just plain awful.
>
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 7/19/2015 5:07 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>
>>
>> KT5X believes [and I don't disagree] that
>> vertical ground planes on mountain tops tend to
>> radiate downhill which isn't real useful. If
>> you're above the timberline, you're probably on
>> a mountain.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred K6DGW
>> - Northern California Contest Club
>> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party
>> 3-4 Oct 2015
>> - www.cqp.org

Jim Brown-10

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

On Sun,7/19/2015 9:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
> It's not going to radiate any lower than the horizon, and that kind of
> low angle is extremely useful for long distances. That can be
> appropriate even for QRP, although it might be more propagation
> dependent versus making some high angle short skip contacts. If I
> want to see how far I can work when backpacking, I'm going with a
> vertical unless the ground conductivity is just plain awful.

The soil conductivity on most high mountaintops IS just plain awful. :)
BUT -- there's nothing like having your antenna on a 3,000 ft tower,
even if it is made of rock. When you get there, almost anything works,
and anything decent works really well.

W6GJB has a "go-kit" for his KX3 that includes a simple telescoping
antenna that mounts to a tripod with a coax connector in the base, and a
couple of wire radials that can be tossed into surrounding vegetation if
there is any, or lay on the ground if there is not. Last summer as a
site survey for FD, we set that up at Berryessa Peak (70 miles N of SF),
and in about ten minutes, made three contest-style CW Qs to JA, SA, and
the east coast of the US.

Spiderbeam sells a 40ft (12M) telescoping fiberglass pole that weighs 7#
and collapses to 3ft-10in. About $135 with shipping from TN).

For about the same price, there's the DK9SQ 33 ft carbon fibre pole that
collapses to 3.8 ft and weighs 2.2#. I used one of those with my K2 at
my old Chicago club's annual QRP night in a local park. A photo is on my
qrz.com page. I taped a #22 wire to it, wedged it between the seat and
the top of the picnic bench (at roughly a 45 degree angle), and laid out
two more wires as radials. Running 5W on 30M, I easily made a half dozen
QSOs, including one that was a Caribbean station running a pileup.

I agree that the Alex Loop, as well as home brew versions of it, can be
a pretty decent backpacking antenna. W6GJB also has one of those.

73, Jim K9YC
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

Barry Simpson

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

My practical experience is that miniature antennas do not work very well.
You end up with a miniature signal which is not much use with QRP.

I recently operated from Vanuatu as YJ0BJ and I used a Steppir CrankIR
vertical for 10 - 40m. It worked very well indeed and whilst it does not
assemble in two minutes, it does all pack away in the carry bag provided.
However, you need a mounting post, fence post or something to mount it on.

My holiday location was almost on the beach so arguably I had the salt
water benefit. However, I have tried it here at home, now with the 80m
extender kit (still all packs in the one bag) and it works OK.

I will be on again from YJ0BJ in November 10 - 80m. The rig will again be
my K3. See the photos and write up on my YJ0BJ QRZ page.

Barry VK2BJ

On 20 July 2015 at 15:31, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun,7/19/2015 9:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
>> It's not going to radiate any lower than the horizon, and that kind of
>> low angle is extremely useful for long distances. That can be appropriate
>> even for QRP, although it might be more propagation dependent versus making
>> some high angle short skip contacts. If I want to see how far I can work
>> when backpacking, I'm going with a vertical unless the ground conductivity
>> is just plain awful.
>>
>
> The soil conductivity on most high mountaintops IS just plain awful. :)
> BUT -- there's nothing like having your antenna on a 3,000 ft tower, even
> if it is made of rock. When you get there, almost anything works, and
> anything decent works really well.
>
> W6GJB has a "go-kit" for his KX3 that includes a simple telescoping
> antenna that mounts to a tripod with a coax connector in the base, and a
> couple of wire radials that can be tossed into surrounding vegetation if
> there is any, or lay on the ground if there is not. Last summer as a site
> survey for FD, we set that up at Berryessa Peak (70 miles N of SF), and in
> about ten minutes, made three contest-style CW Qs to JA, SA, and the east
> coast of the US.
>
> Spiderbeam sells a 40ft (12M) telescoping fiberglass pole that weighs 7#
> and collapses to 3ft-10in. About $135 with shipping from TN).
>
> For about the same price, there's the DK9SQ 33 ft carbon fibre pole that
> collapses to 3.8 ft and weighs 2.2#. I used one of those with my K2 at my
> old Chicago club's annual QRP night in a local park. A photo is on my
> qrz.com page. I taped a #22 wire to it, wedged it between the seat and
> the top of the picnic bench (at roughly a 45 degree angle), and laid out
> two more wires as radials. Running 5W on 30M, I easily made a half dozen
> QSOs, including one that was a Caribbean station running a pileup.
>
> I agree that the Alex Loop, as well as home brew versions of it, can be a
> pretty decent backpacking antenna. W6GJB also has one of those.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

GM4JJJ

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

> On 19 Jul 2015, at 17:45, Wayne Burdick asked
>
> Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)

How about a higher tech solution than a balloon or kite?

With the rise of the ubiquitous miniature drone you could take aloft a wire, or even with a pair of them suspend a horizontal dipole. Then there is the possibility of having synchronised pairs of drones suspending a multi element Yagi, which can be rotated, height varied to suit desired desired take off angle, element lengths reeled in and out to change bands. <patent pending>

73

David Anderson GM4JJJ

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

LOL.

Well, with poor ground conductivity, they become worm cookers. ;)

Dave AB7E

On 7/19/2015 9:59 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Re "It's not going to radiate any lower than the horizon..." -- I'd
> swear, based on on-the-air results, that I've had a few antennas which
> achieved that dubious distinction :-)
>
> 73, Phil W7OX
>
> On 7/19/15 9:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> It's not going to radiate any lower than the horizon, and that kind
>> of low angle is extremely useful for long distances. That can be
>> appropriate even for QRP, although it might be more propagation
>> dependent versus making some high angle short skip contacts. If I
>> want to see how far I can work when backpacking, I'm going with a
>> vertical unless the ground conductivity is just plain awful.
>>
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/19/2015 5:07 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> KT5X believes [and I don't disagree] that vertical ground planes on
>>> mountain tops tend to radiate downhill which isn't real useful. If
>>> you're above the timberline, you're probably on a mountain.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Fred K6DGW
>>> - Northern California Contest Club
>>> - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
>>> - www.cqp.org
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

David Gilbert

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by GM4JJJ

I suggested this about two years ago as a DXpedition antenna for 160m.
With the right drone, it could hold up enough wire to continuously power
it, and with GPS it would automatically adjust for varying wind. It's
not a backpacking antenna, though ... far too much weight.

Dave AB7E

On 7/20/2015 12:39 AM, David Anderson wrote:

>> On 19 Jul 2015, at 17:45, Wayne Burdick asked
>>
>> Is the best antenna for backpacking a very small magnetic loop? A cleverly designed, center-loaded telescoping whip? A length of #30 wire lofted by a small helium balloon? (Or, more intriguingly, some combination of these?)
> How about a higher tech solution than a balloon or kite?
>
> With the rise of the ubiquitous miniature drone you could take aloft a wire, or even with a pair of them suspend a horizontal dipole. Then there is the possibility of having synchronised pairs of drones suspending a multi element Yagi, which can be rotated, height varied to suit desired desired take off angle, element lengths reeled in and out to change bands. <patent pending>
>
> 73
>
> David Anderson GM4JJJ
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Rick M0LEP-2

Re: Miniature self-supporting HF antennas

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

So far, I've found nothing that comes close, and there's nothing more
frustrating than getting to the top and then finding the antenna you
have is doing a poor job. I now regard anything which relies on loading
coils with deep suspicion. That coil's usually doing a fine job of
converting RF to heat. One such antenna I tested against an inverted-V
dipole turned out to be over 20dB down on the dipole for 40 metres.

On Sun 19 Jul Wayne Burdick wrote:
> But the search for the ideal miniature HF antenna continues: something
> both very compact *and* highly efficient. Ideally it would break down
> to a length of 8" or less, do an excellent job on 20 meters and up,
> and earn a passing grade on 30 and/or 40 meters.

--
73, Rick, M0LEP (KX3 #3281)

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Message delivered to [hidden email]

123