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Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

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VA2EW

Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

Hi all,

Last WE during the IARU HF I have tested the use of the USB input of the
K3S in replacement of a RIGEXPERT TI-5 box.

Everything looked great until I experimented that sometimes randomly the
beginning of the first dash or dot was missing when sending CW via
Wintest under Windows 10.

I guess it is a real-time related problem with USB under Windows.

Is there someone who have a solution to fix that or must I come back to
the RIGEXPERT or eventually add a Winkeyer ?

73,s

Gilles VA2EW

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

Gilles,

As long as you are dependent on an application running on the PC for
timing, you will have similar problems. Windows prioritizes the timing
of events to its own pleasure, and servicing the application is not
necessarily of the highest priority. It is normally not noticed, but
with things like CW keying where timing is critical, the operating
system gets in the way.
Back in the old DOS days when the currently running application had the
full attention and command of computer resources, this was not a problem
- back then, there was no "background processing".
The Winkey is the solution normally employed to attack that problem.

If you do not want to invest in the Winkeyer, then confine yourself to
running only the application that is doing the CW keying. The more
applications you have running at the same time, the worse the contention
for computer resources becomes.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 7/13/2017 6:31 PM, VA2EW wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Last WE during the IARU HF I have tested the use of the USB input of the
> K3S in replacement of a RIGEXPERT TI-5 box.
>
> Everything looked great until I experimented that sometimes randomly the
> beginning of the first dash or dot was missing when sending CW via
> Wintest under Windows 10.
>
> I guess it is a real-time related problem with USB under Windows.
>
> Is there someone who have a solution to fix that or must I come back to
> the RIGEXPERT or eventually add a Winkeyer ?
>

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Brian Hunt

Re: Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

In reply to this post by VA2EW

It's possible that Windows 10 is powering down the hub that the device
is connected to. In the Windows 10 Settings dialog click on devices and
scroll all the way down to the bottom and select Device Manager. Then
click on USB controllers to open and view all the hubs. Double click on
each hub and select the Power Management tab and then uncheck the box
that allows the computer to turn off the device to save power. See if
that helps.

Also make sure that Windows Sounds are off. This is because Windows may
stop all I/O including USB when it's doing a sound. (Or at least that's
what I've heard).

Good Luck!

73,
Brian, K0DTJ

On 7/13/2017 15:31, VA2EW wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Last WE during the IARU HF I have tested the use of the USB input of
> the K3S in replacement of a RIGEXPERT TI-5 box.
>
> Everything looked great until I experimented that sometimes randomly
> the beginning of the first dash or dot was missing when sending CW via
> Wintest under Windows 10.
>

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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

In reply to this post by VA2EW

I did not experience any problems like that during 24 hours of the IARU
contest keying a pair of K3S rigs with Win-Test over the USB line, in full
QSK mode, on a single computer (which was running Windows 7 32-bit). With
Win-Test's excellent software CW timing, there's usually no need to buy a
WinKey.

The suggestion to check the USB Power Management settings is a good one.

I think further questions about this should be addressed in the Win-Test
reflector <http://lists.f5mzn.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support>, since
this is unlikely to be a K3S problem.

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 3:31 PM, VA2EW <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Last WE during the IARU HF I have tested the use of the USB input of the
> K3S in replacement of a RIGEXPERT TI-5 box.
>
> Everything looked great until I experimented that sometimes randomly the
> beginning of the first dash or dot was missing when sending CW via Wintest
> under Windows 10.
>
> I guess it is a real-time related problem with USB under Windows.
>
> Is there someone who have a solution to fix that or must I come back to
> the RIGEXPERT or eventually add a Winkeyer ?
>
> 73,s
>
> Gilles VA2EW

VA2EW

Re: Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

In reply to this post by VA2EW

Thanks guys for your fast answers and suggestions.

After having read you, I made several tests.

I have observed some very strange things leading me to think that the K3
USB by itself is not involved:

The problem occurs only when the amplifier (Expert 2K-FA) is in operate
mode and whatever the output power even 50W in a dummy load (the RF is
not involved).

The problem disappears when I put 0 ms as well as 30ms in the "CW-PTT ON
delay" of the interface configuration of Win-test.
That delay is the time between the initial PTT ON signal and the first
CW sending.
The problem comes back when I put my initial 12ms setting. So why 0 and
30 are ok and not 12ms...that's the strange thing?

I'm starting to think that there is something related with the inhibit
output of the amplifier, when there is an inhibit signal at the input of
the K3, the transmission stops and we cannot hear anymore the
transmitted CW. So, maybe the USB is correctly doing its job but the
inhibit signal is hiding it.

You could tell me :" you have found a solution so stop digging" but I do
not like when things are floating around in the station so I have to put
an oscilloscope in all that and check the timings.

I'll tell you if I find something interesting for the reflector

73, Gilles VA2EW

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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: Missing first piece of dash or dot when sending CW with K3S USB input with Wintest.

Are you connecting the amplifier to the TX Inhibit pin of the K3 ACC port?
Do you have CONFIG:TX INH set to Low=Inh or Hi=Inh? You must first set
CONFIG:TECH MD ON to see it. Try changing TX INH to OFF.

From the Expert 2K-FA manual, section 13.3:

"All modern transceivers have a delay before the transmission to allow the
linear to
stabilize their relays avoiding damage to them and possible effects of "Hot
Switching".
The Expert 2K-FA has a settling time of only 6.5 msec. compatible with all
modern
transceivers (see the manual of the transceiver).
Some transceivers have an input (called TX-INHIBIT, LINEAR, MUTE, etc..)
which
disables the transmission.
*This input can be used with transceivers that do not have such delay *or,
more generally,
to improve the safety of switching."

So unless you are using CW QRQ mode in the K3 (and PTT lead=0 in Win-Test),
the relay should close well before the RF is output, so it should not be
necessary to enable TX INH at all.

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Jul 13, 2017 7:58 PM, "VA2EW" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Thanks guys for your fast answers and suggestions.
>
> After having read you, I made several tests.
>
> I have observed some very strange things leading me to think that the K3
> USB by itself is not involved:
>
> The problem occurs only when the amplifier (Expert 2K-FA) is in operate
> mode and whatever the output power even 50W in a dummy load (the RF is not
> involved).
>
> The problem disappears when I put 0 ms as well as 30ms in the "CW-PTT ON
> delay" of the interface configuration of Win-test.
> That delay is the time between the initial PTT ON signal and the first CW
> sending.
> The problem comes back when I put my initial 12ms setting. So why 0 and 30
> are ok and not 12ms...that's the strange thing?
>
> I'm starting to think that there is something related with the inhibit
> output of the amplifier, when there is an inhibit signal at the input of
> the K3, the transmission stops and we cannot hear anymore the transmitted
> CW. So, maybe the USB is correctly doing its job but the inhibit signal is
> hiding it.
>
> You could tell me :" you have found a solution so stop digging" but I do
> not like when things are floating around in the station so I have to put an
> oscilloscope in all that and check the timings.
>
> I'll tell you if I find something interesting for the reflector
>
> 73, Gilles VA2EW
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>