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Mobile/portable antennas

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Keith Bainbridge-2

Mobile/portable antennas

Just a quick word to say totally disagree with KK5F's comments about
the Outbacker antennas.
I and many of my club mates use them on a daily basis and they certainly
do work.
I am mobile at work and consistantly get excellent reports using my
Outbacker on 40 and 20 mtrs over a 500-800 mile path from my Mitsi
outlander with 100w and a TS 50.
I also have had many DX contacts on 20 and 15 mtrs while driving around
Western Australia.
Just cos you have had no luck dont paint the antenna black. Many many
people use them daily and get excellent results, including Police, Army,
and Emergency Services.
It even may have saved a life once as it has the RFDS ( Royal flying
doctor service) tap and I was able to call for help with a heart attack
patient.
I also have a Tarheel 200HP and that works well too.
I'm surprised you made such a categoric statement about how bad the
Outbacker was.
I will send your comments to Terry at Outbacker ( only 10 miles from
here ) for his consideration.
Maybe he will contact you.
probably not.
73
Keith

--
Keith
VK6XH / VK6DXR
Secretary
Northern Corridor Radio Group Inc VK6ANC
Chairman WIA VK6 Advisory Committee.

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AC7AC

RE: Mobile/portable antennas

CONTENTS DELETED

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w7aqk

Re: Mobile/portable antennas

In reply to this post by Keith Bainbridge-2

Keith and All,

Like you, I had pretty good success with my Outbacker. I
used it for years with a mag-mount on top of my vehicles,
and it worked well. It took a lot of abuse too. Now, it's
not equal to many of the bigger screwdriver types, or the
Bug Catcher, etc., but given it's somewhat compromise design
I thought it was a good antenna. I never tried to use it as
a portable antenna though, and I don't think that would be
as good as something like the PAC-12 or MP-1 systems. Those
systems are more versatile, in that you can add sections,
etc. The MP-1 makes a good mobile antenna in a pinch.
Actually, it performs pretty darn good as one.

My Outbacker model was the Perth, and that is longer than
several other Outbacker models. I've heard that the shorter
models seem to not work as well. Possibly that is what the
other person was using. I don't think Outbackers have
faired particularly well in shoot-outs, etc., but it worked
as good as my Hustlers did, and several other types. But
I've since changed to a Tarheel, and I like that better.

Dave W7AQK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Bainbridge" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 7:22 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Mobile/portable antennas

> Just a quick word to say totally disagree with KK5F's
> comments about the Outbacker antennas.
> I and many of my club mates use them on a daily basis and
> they certainly do work.
> I am mobile at work and consistantly get excellent reports
> using my Outbacker on 40 and 20 mtrs over a 500-800 mile
> path from my Mitsi outlander with 100w and a TS 50.
> I also have had many DX contacts on 20 and 15 mtrs while
> driving around Western Australia.
> Just cos you have had no luck dont paint the antenna
> black. Many many people use them daily and get excellent
> results, including Police, Army, and Emergency Services.
> It even may have saved a life once as it has the RFDS (
> Royal flying doctor service) tap and I was able to call
> for help with a heart attack patient.
> I also have a Tarheel 200HP and that works well too.
> I'm surprised you made such a categoric statement about
> how bad the Outbacker was.
> I will send your comments to Terry at Outbacker ( only 10
> miles from here ) for his consideration.
> Maybe he will contact you.
> probably not.
> 73
> Keith
>
> --
> Keith VK6XH / VK6DXR
> Secretary Northern Corridor Radio Group Inc VK6ANC
> Chairman WIA VK6 Advisory Committee.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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Mike Morrow-3

Re: Mobile/portable antennas

In reply to this post by Keith Bainbridge-2

VK6DXR wrote:

> Just a quick word to say totally disagree with KK5F's
> comments about the Outbacker antennas.

Whoops! Instead of addressing any issue raised in my original post,
you have created a straw man to attack which arises not at all from
ANY aspect of my post.

> I and many of my club mates use them on a daily basis and
> they certainly do work.

So does a set of bed springs under right circumstances!

> I am mobile at work and consistantly get excellent reports using my
> Outbacker on 40 and 20 mtrs over a 500-800 mile path from my Mitsi
> outlander with 100w and a TS 50.
> I also have had many DX contacts on 20 and 15 mtrs while driving around
> Western Australia.

Ah...I see the problem now. You are describing Outbacker use as a **mobile**
antenna, compared to other mobile antennas. Strange you should do that.
My post made **NO** assertions about mobile use of any type of antenna.
My remarks simply discussed the use of vertical antennas (such as Outbacker
gear) in a portable (but not moving) application, compared to dipoles.

I know Outbacker gear. I have $700 worth of what should be the most
effective fixed-portable Outbacker installation that the company has
*ever* offered:

(1) The "Outreach" 12 foot (!) 160-10m whip ($420), which is the longest
(almost twice the length of their standard mobile whip) and presumably
the most effective HF whip in the *entire* Outbacker product inventory.
(2) The "Outpost" tripod mounting base ($290), which it is claimed will
somehow capacitively couple to ground and be ideally suited for use
with the "Outreach" in particular.

I have operated HF from campsites since the 1960s. It's something with which
I have some degree of familiarity. I have used this very expensive combo a
number of times in the past seven years at campsites in the Arkansas Ozarks
and the Tennessee and Alabama Appalachians. For comparison purposes, I also
set up a simple home-made multi-band wire dipole ($20) at nine feet above ground.
I made contacts on 40m through 10m using both antennas. In *EVERY* instance,
on *EVERY* band, the vertical installation was 2 to 4 **S-units** lower in
receive and transmit performance, compared to the dipole. I found NO exceptions
to this. I've now relegated the Outbacker stuff to permanent retirement.
Fool me once...!

> Just cos you have had no luck dont paint the antenna black.

I simply point out the *extremely poor* performance of portable vertical
antennas in general, compared to cheap home-made wire dipoles. Most (IMHO, all)
commercial multi-band HF vertical systems have very low performance-to-price
ratios. The Outreach/Outpost is running for the lowest ratio due to its high
price. However, it likely performs no worse than any other vertical at a
temporary site. No matter how poorly these temporary verticals perform,
contacts can still be made using them. That keeps customers coming, and happy
until some actual in-service performance comparisons are made, which most buyers
will never do. Ignorance can be bliss, when several hundred dollars have been
expended!

Likewise, it is likely that the Outbacker performs no worse than any other
vertical antenna in a mobile application. I'll repeat again: That wasn't
an issue in my post. THE issue was: HF vertical antennas at temporary sites,
where no satisfactory ground system is in place, will without exception be
significantly lower in performance compared to a simple dipole, even when the
dipole is mounted only a few feet above ground, and even when some magical
"ground-coupling" base is attached to the vertical!

You are familiar with mobile use of Outbacker gear, but evidently are not
similarly familiar with its use in the application I described. I hope that
these details, demonstrated in actual use, will give you a more complete
understanding of the system's limitations.

73,
Mike / KK5F
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w5tvw

Re: Re: Mobile/portable antennas

This is an interesting post!

As far as dipoles are concerned.....Some years ago, I was operating portable
with a Ten-Tec PM3A (40/20m.) and then the first "Argonaut" they built.
Some of my best results was with "loaded dipoles". Dipoles very short for
the given band I was operating on. I remember the 40 meter one was about
15' long overall. It consisted of a center section of about 5-6' each leg,
the loading coil (in each leg) then the last 12-15" of wire...mainly a
"tuning stub" so to speak. The loading coils were wound on 3/4" polystyrene
tubing forms. Antenna elements were #24 hookup wire. Feeder was a short
length of RG-74/U (LOSSY on the higher bands!) They were erected from 6'
to around 15' high. The tuning was VERY sharp, you could move maybe plus or
minus 10-15 khz or so for around a 1.5:1 VSWR... They did work better than
any vertical whip I tried.
On the other hand 20 years later (NOW!) I found it difficult to setup such
an antenna EASILY in say a parking lot or a cow pasture (no trees!) The 33'
Fiberglass pole is easy to setup and does work, albeit not the best there
is!

I have never tried the "commercial" loaded dipole antennas like the
"Buddipole"? Had an idea to use something homemade and similar using some
telescopic "inner elements", easy to change "loading coils" and telescopic
end elements in a "loaded rotating dipole" configuration, but never got
around to doing this! Something less than 20' long on 80 and less on the
higher bands, light and easily transportable, easy to setup, maybe using the
fiberglass mast not quite telescoped to full height...(25'?) to take
advantage of the stouter section below the "fishing rod" tip sections.
(This is the MGJ 33' pole)

The BIG disatvantage of the loaded antenna was a narrow bandwidth,
especially with hi-Q loading coils. Someday maybe I'll try it again
configured as outlined above.

73,

Sandy W5TVW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Morrow" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:23 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Re: Mobile/portable antennas

. I have used this very expensive combo a

> number of times in the past seven years at campsites in the Arkansas
> Ozarks
> and the Tennessee and Alabama Appalachians. For comparison purposes, I
> also
> set up a simple home-made multi-band wire dipole ($20) at nine feet above
> ground.
> I made contacts on 40m through 10m using both antennas. In *EVERY*
> instance,
> on *EVERY* band, the vertical installation was 2 to 4 **S-units** lower in
> receive and transmit performance, compared to the dipole. I found NO
> exceptions
> to this.