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Monitor delay on the K3

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AD4C2009

Monitor delay on the K3

Well this might seem too long to discuss but I still can't hear with my 60 years old ears any delay when I am using the monitor,here is recording I did this morning using the Yamaha CM500 monitoring myself with the K3 monitor,the audio from the rear "line out" conector going to the lap top line in straight,if you can hear any delay in this recording,you guys has a super ear that I don't have,73

http://www.ad4c.us/Elecraft%20K3/shared%20files%20from%20K3%20users/AD4C%20recordings%20on%20his%20K3/Yamaha%20CM500_/

AD4C

"For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3"

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pd0psb

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

Hi Hector,

This is not about a delay in the monitoring signal itself.
It is about a delay between the audio coming out of your first modulator (the mouth :-) and the radio's monitor out. Due to calculations/AD-DA in dsp there will always be a certain delay (latency), which imho is quite small in K3.

In your recording (which is only the radio's output) there is no delay noticable, you should simultanuously record your voice *before* the radio as well on channel B (or mixed together)

Pretty "crispy" mic btw!

73'
Paul
PD0PSB

AD4C2009 wrote

Well this might seem too long to discuss but I still can't hear with my 60 years old ears any delay when I am using the monitor,here is recording I did this morning using the Yamaha CM500 monitoring myself with the K3 monitor,the audio from the rear "line out" conector going to the lap top line in straight,if you can hear any delay in this recording,you guys has a super ear that I don't have,73

http://www.ad4c.us/Elecraft%20K3/shared%20files%20from%20K3%20users/AD4C%20recordings%20on%20his%20K3/Yamaha%20CM500_/

AD4C

"For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3"

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Guy, K2AV

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

One thing that I get out of the delay is that it keeps it from causing
feedback into my mike, so I can leave it up enough that in contests so
I can listen to the canned speech from the computer. I can hear my own
voice better because it's off the bone conduction audio (mentioned by
someone else). It doesn't freak me, but that's just me.

Is it possible to select "pre" vs. "post" audio for the MON?

73, Guy.

On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 9:52 AM, pd0psb <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi Hector,
>
> This is not about a delay in the monitoring signal itself.
> It is about a delay between the audio coming out of your first modulator
> (the mouth :-) and the radio's monitor out. Due to calculations/AD-DA in dsp
> there will always be a certain delay (latency), which imho is quite small in
> K3.
>
> In your recording (which is only the radio's output) there is no delay
> noticable, you should simultanuously record your voice *before* the radio as
> well on channel B (or mixed together)
>
> Pretty "crispy" mic btw!
>
> 73'
> Paul
> PD0PSB
>
>
>
>
> AD4C2009 wrote:
>>
>> Well this might seem too long to discuss but I still can't hear with my 60
>> years old ears any delay when I am using the monitor,here is recording I
>> did this morning using the Yamaha CM500 monitoring myself with the K3
>> monitor,the audio from the rear "line out" conector going to the lap top
>> line in straight,if you can hear any delay in this recording,you guys has
>> a super ear that I don't have,73
>>
>> http://www.ad4c.us/Elecraft%20K3/shared%20files%20from%20K3%20users/AD4C%20recordings%20on%20his%20K3/Yamaha%20CM500_/
>>
>> AD4C
>>
>> "For a refined ham it is compulsory to own a k3"
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Monitor-delay-on-the-K3-tp4404395p4404449.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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KK7P

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

> Is it possible to select "pre" vs. "post" audio for the MON?

I'll take a look, but no promises or New Year's resolutions :-)

73,

Lyle KK7P
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David Cutter

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

In my view, if it has to be one or the other, I would choose "pre" audio, ie
with no discernable delays. One of the biggest annoyances I've had in a
contest situation is adjacent operators shouting down the mic because they
don't or can't listen to a monitor of their own voice. Feedback is also a
problem, but, on balance, I prefer a little side tone in my ear. One reason
I don't like mobile phones - no side tone.

David
G3UNA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]>

>
>> Is it possible to select "pre" vs. "post" audio for the MON?
>
> I'll take a look, but no promises or New Year's resolutions :-)
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

> In my view, if it has to be one or the other, I would choose
> "pre" audio, ie with no discernable delays.

If it has to be one or the other, I would strongly argue for
"no change." One of the most important uses for monitor is
to actually monitor the quality of one's own transmission.
That simply can't happen if the monitor is a copy of audio
from the mic preamp without any other processing applied by
the transceiver.

The delays in the K3 are not long enough provide any significant
operational issue. Any slight slowing of speech rate is welcome
with some of the "machine gun" operators.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Cutter
> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:27 AM
> To: Lyle Johnson; Guy Olinger K2AV
> Cc: pd0psb; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Monitor delay on the K3
>
>
> In my view, if it has to be one or the other, I would choose
> "pre" audio, ie
> with no discernable delays. One of the biggest annoyances
> I've had in a
> contest situation is adjacent operators shouting down the mic
> because they
> don't or can't listen to a monitor of their own voice.
> Feedback is also a
> problem, but, on balance, I prefer a little side tone in my
> ear. One reason
> I don't like mobile phones - no side tone.
>
> David
> G3UNA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]>
>
> >
> >> Is it possible to select "pre" vs. "post" audio for the MON?
> >
> > I'll take a look, but no promises or New Year's resolutions :-)
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Lyle KK7P
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Guy, K2AV

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

I can believe anyone who says that the heard delay trips them up. At
the extreme end of this general aural phenomenon is the well-known two
or three second delay to bleep profanity on radio talk shows, which
almost always trips up the caller if they leave the radio on in the
background.

I suspect we have a grey line here, where 3 seconds on one end is a
delay that 99% can't tolerate, and what we have in processing delay in
the K3. The K3, from reading postings, does not bother a lot of
people, with some who find it USEFUL., and yet is still enough to
bother others. That sounds like a menu option if I ever heard one,
not a request for reversal to preprocessor audio.

Fairly easy to understand. Want no delay, have to listen before
processing. Want to listen to processing have to listen after
processing, delayed by whatever processing you wanted to listen to.
For those who want pre-audio, with an option they can switch it to
post long enough to hear what's going out and set whatever, but then
they can switch it off for operating.

For what it's worth I cannot type delayed behind CW I'm copying and
have tried to do that all my life. My contesting/traffic buddy W2CS
can type 4,5 letters behind and talk at the same time. If I set MM to
start a return exchange before I've finished typing in a call, I'll
blow the QSO, every time, no exceptions. I HAVE to copy as I receive.
Gary doesn't.

The FT1000MP had a cw monitor setting, where you could listen to the
waveform using the key/paddle closure, or listen to the CW after the
bucket brigade delay which waited for the amp keying delay. I could
deal with delays to about 10 ms, but after that I couldn't send. It
literally felt like the key wasn't closing and I found myself hitting
the paddle harder to make it work. At 30ms delay I was sending
gibberish. Sending hand key code with the 30ms delay was entirely
laughable.

The point: the ability to deal with delays seems a highly variable
thing for a given individual, and those bothered by delays maybe don't
have a chance of the proverbial snowball in h*** of coping with it.
And as bad as I am, the K3 speech processing delay doesn't bother me,
which only puts me somewhere on the line between the extremes.

73, Guy.

On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> In my view, if it has to be one or the other, I would choose
>> "pre" audio, ie with no discernable delays.
>
> If it has to be one or the other, I would strongly argue for
> "no change." One of the most important uses for monitor is
> to actually monitor the quality of one's own transmission.
> That simply can't happen if the monitor is a copy of audio
> from the mic preamp without any other processing applied by
> the transceiver.
>
> The delays in the K3 are not long enough provide any significant
> operational issue. Any slight slowing of speech rate is welcome
> with some of the "machine gun" operators.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Cutter
>> Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:27 AM
>> To: Lyle Johnson; Guy Olinger K2AV
>> Cc: pd0psb; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Monitor delay on the K3
>>
>>
>> In my view, if it has to be one or the other, I would choose
>> "pre" audio, ie
>> with no discernable delays. One of the biggest annoyances
>> I've had in a
>> contest situation is adjacent operators shouting down the mic
>> because they
>> don't or can't listen to a monitor of their own voice.
>> Feedback is also a
>> problem, but, on balance, I prefer a little side tone in my
>> ear. One reason
>> I don't like mobile phones - no side tone.
>>
>> David
>> G3UNA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]>
>>
>> >
>> >> Is it possible to select "pre" vs. "post" audio for the MON?
>> >
>> > I'll take a look, but no promises or New Year's resolutions :-)
>> >
>> > 73,
>> >
>> > Lyle KK7P
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

Bob Naumann W5OV

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

Guy,

I agree that having the option to have either real-time un-processed or to
select processed with the delay would be best.

While using the monitor to evaluate the on-air sound of one's signal is
good, and having a slight delay when doing that is not a problem.

On the other hand, another reason for using the monitor has nothing to do
with the transmitted signal quality, but instead has all to do with proper,
clear speech.

In addition to making sure I speak clearly, I also use the monitor to remind
myself to not yell into the microphone. Having no delay when these latter
two are my intents would be helpful.

73,

Bob W5OV

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger K2AV
Sent: Sunday, January 17, 2010 11:33 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Monitor delay on the K3

I can believe anyone who says that the heard delay trips them up. At
the extreme end of this general aural phenomenon is the well-known two
or three second delay to bleep profanity on radio talk shows, which
almost always trips up the caller if they leave the radio on in the
background.

I suspect we have a grey line here, where 3 seconds on one end is a
delay that 99% can't tolerate, and what we have in processing delay in
the K3. The K3, from reading postings, does not bother a lot of
people, with some who find it USEFUL., and yet is still enough to
bother others. That sounds like a menu option if I ever heard one,
not a request for reversal to preprocessor audio.

Fairly easy to understand. Want no delay, have to listen before
processing. Want to listen to processing have to listen after
processing, delayed by whatever processing you wanted to listen to.
For those who want pre-audio, with an option they can switch it to
post long enough to hear what's going out and set whatever, but then
they can switch it off for operating.

For what it's worth I cannot type delayed behind CW I'm copying and
have tried to do that all my life. My contesting/traffic buddy W2CS
can type 4,5 letters behind and talk at the same time. If I set MM to
start a return exchange before I've finished typing in a call, I'll
blow the QSO, every time, no exceptions. I HAVE to copy as I receive.
Gary doesn't.

The FT1000MP had a cw monitor setting, where you could listen to the
waveform using the key/paddle closure, or listen to the CW after the
bucket brigade delay which waited for the amp keying delay. I could
deal with delays to about 10 ms, but after that I couldn't send. It
literally felt like the key wasn't closing and I found myself hitting
the paddle harder to make it work. At 30ms delay I was sending
gibberish. Sending hand key code with the 30ms delay was entirely
laughable.

The point: the ability to deal with delays seems a highly variable
thing for a given individual, and those bothered by delays maybe don't
have a chance of the proverbial snowball in h*** of coping with it.
And as bad as I am, the K3 speech processing delay doesn't bother me,
which only puts me somewhere on the line between the extremes.

73, Guy.

On Sun, Jan 17, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:

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Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: Monitor delay on the K3

In reply to this post by AD4C2009

Maybe its all the years of listening to headset conversations for work and
dealing with IFB and ProChannel delay issues, but it comes as news to me
that there is a delay in the K3 audio monitor output for either SSB or CW!
If its there its very slight.

I'm really picky about things like that and I don't hear it! I will have to
pay closer attention now that you guys have pointed this out.

If Lyle and Elecraft chooses to change it, I vote for a menu setting, and
mine will always be on the "post processing" selection.

-lu-W4LT-
K3 #3192

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 12:33:21 -0500
From: Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Monitor delay on the K3
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Message-ID:
<[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I can believe anyone who says that the heard delay trips them up. At
the extreme end of this general aural phenomenon is the well-known two
or three second delay to bleep profanity on radio talk shows, which
almost always trips up the caller if they leave the radio on in the
background

No virus found in this outgoing message
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