More ECN errata

[Dave G3VGR-2]

Some years back over here, BK  was always used instead of K to indicate
that one had full break-in (QSK) capability. The other station then knew
he could  interrupt the sending station whenever necessary.
73, Dave G3VGR

[hidden email] wrote:

>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Morrow <[hidden email]>
> To: Darwin, Keith <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Discussion List <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:49:34 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Prosign confusion (was: Anticipating Morse)
>
>
>
>
>>As for BK, that is two letters, but like many other ham Morse customs, it really
>>has *NO* place or value in Morse communication.  The prosign K is much more to
>>the point!
>
>
> I disagree!
> The prosign "K" is meant for use at the end of a transmission, after the formal exchange of callsigns:
> "CQ CQ CQ CQ DE N2EY N2EY N2EY K"
> "....ES PSE QSL KK5F DE N2EY K"
> meaning "go ahead any station"
> But "BK" is used in rapid-fire exchanges *without* the formal callsign exchange:
> ".....FB MOJO OM BT IS UR RIG A K2 or K1? BK
> BK RIG HR K2 K2 SN 2084 2084 BK
> BK R R DOING FB....."
> Of course with the fine QSK of Elecraft rigs, even the BK can become superfluous. But if
> the other op doesn't have QSK, BK is useful to indicate that you're turning it over for a quick reply.
> --
> There was a time when ARRL sponsored a "copying bee", in which a message of unknown length and content
>  was sent. This grew into the Code Proficiency program. One feature of the Copying Bee was the
> inclusion of intentional misspellings, to see if the receiving op would copy "as sent" or "as expected".
> Caused more than a few to miss the perfect copy certificate.
> 73 (old Phillips Code abbreviation) ES (old Morse &) ZUT (old "Z code" abbreviation - unofficial)
> DE (prosign - sent as two letters) N2EY
>  
>  
>  
>  
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[N2EY]

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
To: 'Elecraft Discussion List' <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:37:44 -0800
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Prosign confusion (was: Anticipating Morse)

>One might ask what is CQ an
>abbreviation of? Some say it's a phonetic "seek you" but I've never heard a
>single plausible explanation of it as anything other than a prosign.

It's a two-letter abbreviation like QRZ.
It originated in landwire Morse, where it meant "general call, all stations copy" or
"calling all stations". Useful for sending bulletins, synchronizing clocks, etc.
In wireless use it came to mean "I'm looking for a QSO" or "calling *any* station". Such
an abbreviation was not needed in landwire Morse because in that sort of operation there
was no question of "contact" - if you were plugged into a wire, you heard everything on
that wire, and if not, you heard nothing.
CQD was developed by the Marconi Company to mean "urgent/distress message, any stations respond"
essentially the same as SOS

>So what's the bottom line? To me it's that CW or Morse is a language and,
>like most languages it goes through a process of evolution and change
>according to popular usage. And those changes will probably bring anguish to
>the purists who remember the "old ways" just as changes in spoken and
>written languages of all sorts have done.
 
I agree to a point. But we amateurs are the last widespread users of Morse Code - the
keepers of the flame, as it were. I think it's up to us to preserve its unique
character.
And why not keep the old ways alive, if they work? Most of the old ways are the
way they are for good reason. Abbreviations like "73" survived because of both
their usefulness and how they sound in Morse. "ES" is shorter than "AND", more
distinctive, and just rolls off the bug with ease.
There's also a genuine satisfaction from doing a thing well, as it was intended
to be done, even if it's not absolutely necessary.
 
73 de Jim, N2EY
 
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[Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/KC8NHF]

If CQ is a prosign, i.e. a single character without embedded space,
please explain how I should pronounce it such  using 'phone modes.

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

>One might ask what is CQ an
>abbreviation of? Some say it's a phonetic "seek you" but I've never heard a
>single plausible explanation of it as anything other than a prosign.
>
>  
>

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Jim, N2EY wrote:

(CQ is) a two-letter abbreviation like QRZ.

--------------------------

But neither of them are abbreviations (i.e. shortened words). CQ has no
credible meaning as an abbreviation that I've ever seen. QRZ is one of the
common "Q" codes that are sent as three distinct letters. The Q-codes are a
set of signals all their own, neither abbreviations or prosigns.

In commercial use, CQ was employed from the earliest days of public message
handling. It is true that Marconi's stations were not "public" but private,
talking only to other Marconi stations except in time of emergency. After
other radio services came about in competition with Marconi, CQ was used as
a general call to ANY other station who wished to contact them. In that case
it was for the purpose of announcing their availability to ships who wanted
to send messages. As you know, the coastal stations open for traffic would
sent out a constant CQ call using their "wheel" (For others, the wheel was a
mechanical disk with notches around the edge that rotated at a fixed speed.
Contacts followed the notches to key the transmitter and send CW
automatically). Interspersed with the CQ was a listing of the frequencies on
which they were listening for anyone who wanted to call them.

I agree about 'keeping the flame alive' and the ease of signals like "ES"
for "and". I am also very much aware of how hard the French struggle to keep
the French language pure. I suspect they, among all the "western nations" at
least, are the most dedicated to maintaining the purity of their language.
Yet, common usage keeps creeping in with newly-adopted words and syntax. In
our case with Morse or "CW", ES became popular because it was easy and
useful. We don't hear parenthesis or asterisks on the CW bands much because
they aren't as useful in our casual QSO's.

I applaud efforts to preserve CW, but, like any language, what is the "pure
form"? I submit that same pressure for change in vocabulary and usage that
any language experiences is constant and relentless. It is slowly changing
the CW language as we know it. If that keeps More popular and in use, is
that such a bad thing?

Ron AC7AC

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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Nigel, G8IFF/KC8NHF wrote:

If CQ is a prosign, i.e. a single character without embedded space,
please explain how I should pronounce it such  using 'phone modes.

---------------------------------

Dah-di-dah-di-dah-dah-di-dah?

Seriously, once you go to non-CW modes, all bets are off. Obviously CQ was
adopted by phone operators from its long use as a general call to any (or
all) stations on CW and the letters used to identify it as a prosign were
used on 'phone.

Again, in language we adapt, adopt and modify to meet the needs of the day.
The phone "CQ" is an excellent example.

Ron AC7AC

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[Thom LaCosta]

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006, Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/KC8NHF wrote:

> If CQ is a prosign, i.e. a single character without embedded space, please
> explain how I should pronounce it such  using 'phone modes.

One of the local credit unions, SECU uses the sound of SeeQue in their
commercials.

I suppose you could say C pause Q, but most folks say CQ with no pause, and so
it "sounds" like a prosign.

I suppose the next thing we can do is discuss how many low power angels can
dance on the head of a pin...and for the real devotees, a thread could be
started about how many nano angels are in an atom.

I think I'll go work some CW(pronounced SeeDoubleYou), not See Wubbia

73,Thom-k3hrn
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[Don Wilhelm-3]

Folks,

I think we are all getting mixed mesages here - when to use a letter space,
and when not to is the question.

I checked the table in my 1994 ARRL Handbook for CW abbreviations and
prosigns (the new handbooks have eliminated this info for some reason!).
Earlier handbooks just listed the dots and dashes as though they were extra
morse characters.  And I know that other groups of radiotelegraphy have
special symbols that have meaning to those within that group.

The 'prosigns' listed in 1994 are: QRL?, CQ, AR, K, KN, BK, R, AS, SK, and
CL - but the only ones indicated to be sent without a space (as one
character) are AR, KN, AS, and SK - all others are indicated as being sent
as 2 or more letters (indicated with a bar).

The same page also has a long list of abbreviations which are obviously sent
as separate letters - ES for 'and or &' is in that list of abbreviations
(the 'R' and 'CL' also appear in the abbreviations list)

So for my part, this is how I learned them and how I use them (I hope no-one
is confused by such use) - the prosigns that are indicated with a bar to me
are just another morse character (like the new character for @ which can be
visualized as 'AC' with a bar over it).

73,
Don W3FPR

> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Stephanie, VA3UXB wrote:
>
> I don't think I ever got the hang of the prosigns...  I got the AR.
> To me, BT is a dash (-) but I don't know if that's correct or not.  I
> sometimes get the ',' and '?' confused.  The / character I know well,
> because I always hear it on our local repeater ident, and it it's in
> my beacon's ident (va3grr/b).
>
> But.... how can you tell an ES from the letter H?  The other ones,
> the AR, BT, the / character, all have 'unique' sounds when you hear
> them, right?  Isn't ES the same as 'h'?  Or am I completely lost?
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> Excellent point, Stephanie!
>
> All prosigns are sent as a single character and indicated, for the sake of
> simplicity, as letters that, if sent without the normal space,
> will produce
> the prosign. All prosigns are chosen so they won't have the problems you
> mention. This is a list of the prosigns I'm familiar with:
>
> AR ----- End of message
> AS ----- Stand by
> BK ----- Invite receiving station to transmit
> BT ----- Pause; Break For Text
> KA ----- Beginning of message
> KN ----- end of transmission
> CL ----- Going off the air (clear)
> CQ ----- Calling any amateur radio station
> K ------ Go, invite any station to transmit
> KN ----- Go only, invite a specific station to transmit
> R ------ All received OK
> SK ----- End of contact (sent before call)
> VE ----- Understood (VE)
> AV ----- Warning
> SOS ---- Distress
>
> Although it can't be shown here in ASCII, a prosign is identified
> by a line
> or bar above the letters. You'll hear most of these on the Ham bands
> although some, like VE or AV and especially SOS will be very rarely heard.
>
> In addition to prosigns we have actual Morse characters for the arcane
> characters on our keyboards. These are NOT "prosigns" but simply
> combinations of dots and dashes like any letter of the English alphabet or
> number. (My apologies for getting careless with terminology and
> calling the
> ampersand a "prosign". That's not right. Hang on. I'll get back
> to that). I
> say English because, of course, there are many other languages that have
> corresponding Morse codes such as the 70-odd characters used for
> Japanese or
> the various odd characters used to represent diacritical marks and special
> letter combinations in other European languages including Hebrew. I won't
> even get into Arabic and Cyrillic. In many countries, Hams have
> to learn and
> be proficient in two or three "Morse Codes" to get a license!
>
> Here in the USA, commercial operators recognized a group of characters for
> the various symbols found on a common keyboard. These were codified by the
> ITU for use in commercial communications by Morse. We Hams use
> some of them
> almost daily, such as the period, question mark, comma and
> solidus (slash).
> A few more are:
>
> + (plus sign) di-dah-di-dit-dah
>
> = (equal sign) dah-di-di-dit-dah (We Hams use that for a dash a lot but as
> dash is really)
>
> - (dash) dah-di-di-di-di-dah
>
> " (quotation mark) di-dah-di-di-dah-dit
>
> ' (single quote) di-dah-dah-dah-dah-dit
>
> _ (underscore) di-di-dah-dah-di-dah
>
> $ (dollar sign) di-di-di-dah-di-di-dah
>
> There are more. There's probably one for the Euro by now <G>.
>
> Now THOSE you won't fine in common use on the Ham bands, at least
> not in any
> QSO I've heard! That is except for our "pause" when we often use
> the = sign.
>
> As Kevin Rock, KD5ONS, mentioned that some characters we use commonly came
> from the old American Morse that used variations on spacing and element
> lengths that don't occur in Continental or International Morse code. Dit,
> di-di-dit is one of those. Sent as E S it is the ampersand. Another very
> common one that is fading from use because of the popularity of keyers is
> the American Morse zero - the long dash.
>
> I'm sure others with far more background in the American Morse,
> Continental
> Morse, and various international codes will have more to say.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>

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[Don Wilhelm-3]

> -----Original Message-----
>
> The 'prosigns' listed in 1994 are: QRL?, CQ, AR, K, KN, BK, R, AS, SK, and
> CL - but the only ones indicated to be sent without a space (as one
> character) are AR, KN, AS, and SK - all others are indicated as being sent
> as 2 or more letters (indicated with a bar).
>
>
Folks,

My error above - the phrase inside the parenthesis should have been
"indicated withOUT a bar"

Sorry for any confusion - and thanks to the folks who understood without
this correction.

73,
Don W3FPR

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[N2EY]

In a message dated 1/12/06 1:18:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> Jim, N2EY wrote:
>
> (CQ is) a two-letter abbreviation like QRZ.
>
> --------------------------
>
> But neither of them are abbreviations (i.e. shortened words).

An abbreviation isn't always a shortened word - how did we get "lb" as an
abbreviation for "pound"?

> In commercial use, CQ was employed from the earliest days of public message
> handling. It is true that Marconi's stations were not "public" but private,
> talking only to other Marconi stations except in time of emergency. After
> other radio services came about in competition with Marconi, CQ was used as
> a general call to ANY other station who wished to contact them. In that case
> it was for the purpose of announcing their availability to ships who wanted
> to send messages.

Of course - but did it start with Marconi, or was it adapted from landwire
use?


As you know, the coastal stations open for traffic would
>
> sent out a constant CQ call using their "wheel" (For others, the wheel was a
> mechanical disk with notches around the edge that rotated at a fixed speed.
> Contacts followed the notches to key the transmitter and send CW
> automatically). Interspersed with the CQ was a listing of the frequencies on
> which they were listening for anyone who wanted to call them.
>

Exactly!


> I agree about 'keeping the flame alive' and the ease of signals like "ES"
> for "and". I am also very much aware of how hard the French struggle to keep
> the French language pure. I suspect they, among all the "western nations" at
> least, are the most dedicated to maintaining the purity of their language.
> Yet, common usage keeps creeping in with newly-adopted words and syntax. In
> our case with Morse or "CW", ES became popular because it was easy and
> useful. We don't hear parenthesis or asterisks on the CW bands much because
> they aren't as useful in our casual QSO's.

"ES" for "and" goes back a long way, though. I found references to it in QSTs
of the 1950s, and it was used as if everyone would know what it meant. (I saw
it in the bug-practice sentence "SHE IS 55 ES SHE IS HIS SISTER". Try sending
*that* ten times, fast, with no mistakes!)

>
> I applaud efforts to preserve CW, but, like any language, what is the "pure
> form"?

Ultimately, it's what the keepers of the flame say it is...;-)


 I submit that same pressure for change in vocabulary and usage that
>
> any language experiences is constant and relentless. It is slowly changing
> the CW language as we know it. If that keeps More popular and in use, is
> that such a bad thing?
>

Only if the new is better than the old. To judge whether a new form is better
requires knowledge and understanding of the old way.  Too often, ignorance of
the past results in a repeat of the mistakes of the past.

Remember the story about the railroad signal towers?

73 es ZUT de Jim, N2EY


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[K3yt]

Hi,
 
the "lb" for pound comes from Spanish(and its close Latin)"libra"
meaning pound.
 
73 de Bob K3YT
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[Nigel A. Gunn G8IFF/KC8NHF]

/Comes from the Latin libra pondo or //libra pendere
Libra eaning scales or balance and pondo or pendrer being a roughly
equivalent weight of those days.
/
[hidden email] wrote:

>
>
>An abbreviation isn't always a shortened word - how did we get "lb" as an
>abbreviation for "pound"?
>
>  
>

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