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My KX3 desk microphone project

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NC3Z

My KX3 desk microphone project

I wanted a desk mic to go along with my KX3 station. Wanted something
more portable than the Heil boom and mic I use on my other radio. I have
experimented with dynamic mics on the KX3 and didn't get the results I
liked but did get very nice results with using 4 CUI electret condenser
mic elements in parallel. I used the CUI CMA-4544PF-W from Digikey and
used a small project circuit board to physically arrange them in a 2 x 2
config. Then I trimmed up the board.

For the mic body I found a unused Shure 522 on ebay (some company had
them for a conference table system and had a great price). The 522 has
an adjustable neck height and a PTT (with lock). I gutted the body and
fitted the new electret element assembly as well as used a 3' TRRS patch
cable that I cut 1 end off for the mic cable, it also had 90 deg ends.

I am pleased with the physical results as well as very good audio
reports I am receiving from the regulars that know my signal, still not
to the level of my FTDX5000MP but getting better with each tweak and DSP
update (using 1.32 which has made a noticeable improvement). I am using
a healthy level of compression and mic gain that shows a solid 5 bars.

--

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
www.mitchelson.org

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Gary K9GS

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

>
>
> Just curious...what is the point of paralleling 4 microphone elements?
>
>
> On 1/22/2015 10:44 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
>> I wanted a desk mic to go along with my KX3 station. Wanted something
>> more portable than the Heil boom and mic I use on my other radio. I
>> have experimented with dynamic mics on the KX3 and didn't get the
>> results I liked but did get very nice results with using 4 CUI
>> electret condenser mic elements in parallel. I used the CUI
>> CMA-4544PF-W from Digikey and used a small project circuit board to
>> physically arrange them in a 2 x 2 config. Then I trimmed up the board.
>>
>> For the mic body I found a unused Shure 522 on ebay (some company had
>> them for a conference table system and had a great price). The 522
>> has an adjustable neck height and a PTT (with lock). I gutted the
>> body and fitted the new electret element assembly as well as used a
>> 3' TRRS patch cable that I cut 1 end off for the mic cable, it also
>> had 90 deg ends.
>>
>> I am pleased with the physical results as well as very good audio
>> reports I am receiving from the regulars that know my signal, still
>> not to the level of my FTDX5000MP but getting better with each tweak
>> and DSP update (using 1.32 which has made a noticeable improvement).
>> I am using a healthy level of compression and mic gain that shows a
>> solid 5 bars.
>>
>
>
> --
> 73,
>
> Gary K9GS
>
> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
> CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org
>
> ************************************************

NC3Z

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

Provides more gain and improves the SNR.

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
www.mitchelson.org

On 1/23/2015 7:33 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:

>
>
>>
>>
>> Just curious...what is the point of paralleling 4 microphone elements?
>>
>>
>> On 1/22/2015 10:44 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
>>> I wanted a desk mic to go along with my KX3 station. Wanted
>>> something more portable than the Heil boom and mic I use on my other
>>> radio. I have experimented with dynamic mics on the KX3 and didn't
>>> get the results I liked but did get very nice results with using 4
>>> CUI electret condenser mic elements in parallel. I used the CUI
>>> CMA-4544PF-W from Digikey and used a small project circuit board to
>>> physically arrange them in a 2 x 2 config. Then I trimmed up the board.
>>>
>>> For the mic body I found a unused Shure 522 on ebay (some company
>>> had them for a conference table system and had a great price). The
>>> 522 has an adjustable neck height and a PTT (with lock). I gutted
>>> the body and fitted the new electret element assembly as well as
>>> used a 3' TRRS patch cable that I cut 1 end off for the mic cable,
>>> it also had 90 deg ends.
>>>
>>> I am pleased with the physical results as well as very good audio
>>> reports I am receiving from the regulars that know my signal, still
>>> not to the level of my FTDX5000MP but getting better with each tweak
>>> and DSP update (using 1.32 which has made a noticeable improvement).
>>> I am using a healthy level of compression and mic gain that shows a
>>> solid 5 bars.
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 73,
>>
>> Gary K9GS
>>
>> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
>> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
>> CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org
>>
>> ************************************************
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Jim Brown-10

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

You are seriously misguided. Your combination of mics won't do that, and
they WILL make a mess of the sound they pick up.

The only thing to be gained by combining microphones is directivity,
doing that is VERY difficult, and microphones that provide directivity
are common and inexpensive.

73, Jim K9YC
Retired Pro Audio Guy

On Fri,1/23/2015 4:50 PM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:

Gary K9GS

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

Others have commented on the directivity problems with paralleling
microphone elements.

Regarding the "gain" that you mentioned, any electret element is going
to have a very high output. Much more than the K3 needs. The K3 can
effectively handle just about any microphone.

On 1/23/2015 6:50 PM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:

> Provides more gain and improves the SNR.
>
> Gary Mitchelson
> NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
> www.mitchelson.org
>
> On 1/23/2015 7:33 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just curious...what is the point of paralleling 4 microphone elements?
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/22/2015 10:44 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
>>>> I wanted a desk mic to go along with my KX3 station. Wanted
>>>> something more portable than the Heil boom and mic I use on my
>>>> other radio. I have experimented with dynamic mics on the KX3 and
>>>> didn't get the results I liked but did get very nice results with
>>>> using 4 CUI electret condenser mic elements in parallel. I used the
>>>> CUI CMA-4544PF-W from Digikey and used a small project circuit
>>>> board to physically arrange them in a 2 x 2 config. Then I trimmed
>>>> up the board.
>>>>
>>>> For the mic body I found a unused Shure 522 on ebay (some company
>>>> had them for a conference table system and had a great price). The
>>>> 522 has an adjustable neck height and a PTT (with lock). I gutted
>>>> the body and fitted the new electret element assembly as well as
>>>> used a 3' TRRS patch cable that I cut 1 end off for the mic cable,
>>>> it also had 90 deg ends.
>>>>
>>>> I am pleased with the physical results as well as very good audio
>>>> reports I am receiving from the regulars that know my signal, still
>>>> not to the level of my FTDX5000MP but getting better with each
>>>> tweak and DSP update (using 1.32 which has made a noticeable
>>>> improvement). I am using a healthy level of compression and mic
>>>> gain that shows a solid 5 bars.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Gary K9GS
>>>
>>> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
>>> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
>>> CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org
>>>
>>> ************************************************
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
> --
> 73,
>
> Gary K9GS
>
> Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
> Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
> CW Ops #1032 http://www.cwops.org
>
> ************************************************

NC3Z

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Guys it is a project! No need to be throwing out personal statements
like that! Sorry for being "misguided" guess I wont make that mistake
again here!

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
www.mitchelson.org

On 1/23/2015 9:19 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> You are seriously misguided. Your combination of mics won't do that,
> and they WILL make a mess of the sound they pick up.
>
> The only thing to be gained by combining microphones is directivity,
> doing that is VERY difficult, and microphones that provide directivity
> are common and inexpensive.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> Retired Pro Audio Guy
>
> On Fri,1/23/2015 4:50 PM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
>> Provides more gain and improves the SNR.
>>
>> Gary Mitchelson
>> NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
>> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
>> www.mitchelson.org
>>
>> On 1/23/2015 7:33 PM, Gary K9GS wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just curious...what is the point of paralleling 4 microphone elements?
>>>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Jim Brown-10

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

On Sat,1/24/2015 5:13 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
> Guys it is a project! No need to be throwing out personal statements
> like that! Sorry for being "misguided" guess I wont make that mistake
> again here!

Misguided is not a "personal" statement. it is advice from someone who
knows how microphones and arrays of microphones work that what you are
pursuing is a really bad idea.

73, Jim K9YC
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

I want to point out one thing about all of this "It's AMATEUR Radio".
Last week another list member was hammered on for finding a Bug that even I could replicate here.
(Strangely I do not recall anyone making a public apology to that man).

So the guy here made a mic and it worked for him and he wanted to share his PROJECT.(Yea I made that same mistake when I found better quality and quieter fans for my K3).
Maybe someone could have say Hey that's cool but in my Professional experience we found that X.

PS: I work on stuff that is Real Life and Death when it goes down and AMATEUR radio is far from that.

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

Gary on Behalf of the Board I will extend an apology to you, some here take the Hobby far to serious.

I personally enjoy it when someone tries something and shares it and we all learn from it.
I've been a Ham for a lot of years and I've seen a lot of things tried that you would think would never work but did.Though my favorite was when I flew RC aircraft and we had a Guy who against all convention used One Bladed Props.

From: Gary - NC3Z <[hidden email]>
To: Harry Yingst <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

Nice post Harry. And did you notice still no technical backup?

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
www.mitchelson.org

On 1/24/2015 2:32 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

> I want to point out one thing about all of this "It's AMATEUR Radio".
> Last week another list member was hammered on for finding a Bug that even I could replicate here.
> (Strangely I do not recall anyone making a public apology to that man).
>
> So the guy here made a mic and it worked for him and he wanted to share his PROJECT.(Yea I made that same mistake when I found better quality and quieter fans for my K3).
> Maybe someone could have say Hey that's cool but in my Professional experience we found that X.
>
>
> PS: I work on stuff that is Real Life and Death when it goes down and AMATEUR radio is far from that.
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

>>>> We want people to have more successful projects, avoiding well-known dead ends. <<<<
Just imagine Marconi considering his project a deadend?
I'm sorry Walter, I have to disagree with you.
Lets fast forward to the year 2005.

Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech 2005 high definition.flv
| |
| | | | | | | |
| Steve Jobs Stanford Commencement Speech 2005 high de... |
| |
| View on www.youtube.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| |

Isn't Elmering about Nuturing?
((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS

From: Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

I’m confused. “Misguided” means that someone is headed in a wrong direction. Sharing expertise to help someone out shouldn’t require an apology. Should I apologize for being an Elmer? Should I let people use poor engineering practices to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings?

We want people to have more successful projects, avoiding well-known dead ends.

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/

On Jan 24, 2015, at 11:45 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Gary on Behalf of the Board I will extend an apology to you, some here take the Hobby far to serious.
>
> I personally enjoy it when someone tries something and shares it and we all learn from it.
> I've been a Ham for a lot of years and I've seen a lot of things tried that you would think would never work but did.Though my favorite was when I flew RC aircraft and we had a Guy who against all convention used One Bladed Props.
>
> From: Gary - NC3Z <[hidden email]>
> To: Harry Yingst <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project
>
> Nice post Harry. And did you notice still no technical backup?
>
> Gary Mitchelson
> NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
> www.mitchelson.org
>
>
>
> On 1/24/2015 2:32 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:
>> I want to point out one thing about all of this "It's AMATEUR Radio".
>> Last week another list member was hammered on for finding a Bug that even I could replicate here.
>> (Strangely I do not recall anyone making a public apology to that man).
>>
>> So the guy here made a mic and it worked for him and he wanted to share his PROJECT.(Yea I made that same mistake when I found better quality and quieter fans for my K3).
>> Maybe someone could have say Hey that's cool but in my Professional experience we found that X.
>>
>>
>> PS: I work on stuff that is Real Life and Death when it goes down and AMATEUR radio is far from that.
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

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w7aqk

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

Gary and all,

Whoa! Gary! Don’t get your knickers in a knot. Jim was NOT making a “personal statement”, as you suggest. He was, however, making a definitive comment based on knowledge and experience. That’s all! It would make no sense for him to make some “wishy-washy” critique of your effort when he knows you are heading off in the wrong direction. That could be just as confusing. Of all the people on this reflector, Jim is possibly the most qualified to opine on your effort. Apparently some of what you were trying to accomplish, and suggesting to others, could be seriously misleading as to the actual result! I wouldn’t have known any better, nor would a lot of others, but Jim does, and said so. In effect, all he said is “you are wrong”, but he certainly did not do so in terminology to which you should take offense.

I suspect what may have hurt your feelings was just learning that what you thought was a good idea really wasn’t! Heck, we’ve all done that, and me probably more than others. Just be grateful that someone was around, who has appropriate expertise, to prevent your error from becoming an even bigger one!

If you are happy with your direction, that’s fine. However, if what you suggest is inconsistent with the physics of the process, folks need to know that as well. That’s a big part of the “beauty” of this reflector. There is a lot of real expertise out there, and I benefit from it regularly. However, if I say something, and I’m on thin ice in doing so, I need to be prepared to be called on it. I don’t want to go down a road that has a dead end, and I certainly don’t want to lead others down that same road! All too often folks tend to take what they read as “gospel” and run with it, so oversight is critical! If we didn’t have people like Jim Brown participating on this reflector I wouldn’t learn much, and I’d probably be off beating my head against the wall on a regular basis!

Overall, I think you have a very nice project in process. “Rolling your own” microphone is a good thing, and can be very satisfying as a project. I’ve had a lot of fun doing some of that, and using relatively cheap electret elements to revive old microphone housings, etc. For a few dollars you can duplicate, if not improve on, the results you would get from expensive commercial alternatives.

Dave W7AQK
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NC3Z

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
"seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.

I would of loved to see some data/research/reference as to why this wont
work, there are a couple of articles (yes on the internet, but this list
is also on the internet) out there that show that paralleling electrets
are valid, so I figured I would play around with that configuration. I
am by no means an expert on microphones and I am not saying I am right
by any means but my experiment showed that it works, well it shows that
it doesn't make it worse! I did a lot of on-air A/B testing to make sure
that my audio was not being screwed up. I continued this path because
the parallel configuration was receiving better reports.

Good enough, I will correct my error.

Gary Mitchelson
NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
www.mitchelson.org

On 1/24/2015 10:15 PM, dyarnes wrote:

> Gary and all,
>
> Whoa! Gary! Don’t get your knickers in a knot. Jim was NOT making a “personal statement”, as you suggest. He was, however, making a definitive comment based on knowledge and experience. That’s all! It would make no sense for him to make some “wishy-washy” critique of your effort when he knows you are heading off in the wrong direction. That could be just as confusing. Of all the people on this reflector, Jim is possibly the most qualified to opine on your effort. Apparently some of what you were trying to accomplish, and suggesting to others, could be seriously misleading as to the actual result! I wouldn’t have known any better, nor would a lot of others, but Jim does, and said so. In effect, all he said is “you are wrong”, but he certainly did not do so in terminology to which you should take offense.
>
> I suspect what may have hurt your feelings was just learning that what you thought was a good idea really wasn’t! Heck, we’ve all done that, and me probably more than others. Just be grateful that someone was around, who has appropriate expertise, to prevent your error from becoming an even bigger one!
>
> If you are happy with your direction, that’s fine. However, if what you suggest is inconsistent with the physics of the process, folks need to know that as well. That’s a big part of the “beauty” of this reflector. There is a lot of real expertise out there, and I benefit from it regularly. However, if I say something, and I’m on thin ice in doing so, I need to be prepared to be called on it. I don’t want to go down a road that has a dead end, and I certainly don’t want to lead others down that same road! All too often folks tend to take what they read as “gospel” and run with it, so oversight is critical! If we didn’t have people like Jim Brown participating on this reflector I wouldn’t learn much, and I’d probably be off beating my head against the wall on a regular basis!
>
> Overall, I think you have a very nice project in process. “Rolling your own” microphone is a good thing, and can be very satisfying as a project. I’ve had a lot of fun doing some of that, and using relatively cheap electret elements to revive old microphone housings, etc. For a few dollars you can duplicate, if not improve on, the results you would get from expensive commercial alternatives.
>
> Dave W7AQK
>

Rick Prather-4

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

Gary,

Now I remember why I only rarely post on this list.

Rick
K6LE
Not an engineer
Not a retired expert in anything
Just a ham.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 5:20 AM, Gary - NC3Z <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
> "seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
> Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.
>
> I would of loved to see some data/research/reference as to why this wont
> work, there are a couple of articles (yes on the internet, but this list is
> also on the internet) out there that show that paralleling electrets are
> valid, so I figured I would play around with that configuration. I am by no
> means an expert on microphones and I am not saying I am right by any means
> but my experiment showed that it works, well it shows that it doesn't make
> it worse! I did a lot of on-air A/B testing to make sure that my audio was
> not being screwed up. I continued this path because the parallel
> configuration was receiving better reports.
>
> Good enough, I will correct my error.
>
> Gary Mitchelson
> NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
> www.mitchelson.org

Jim Brown-10

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

On Sun,1/25/2015 5:20 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
> In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
> "seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
> Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.

Why? If an idea is seriously misguided, saying so is entirely
appropriate. I did not expand on the advice because this is an email
reflector dedicated to Elecraft radios, not microphones.

There are (at least) three reasons why an array of microphones is a
really bad idea. First, really good sounding mics to work with our
radios are widely available cheap. Second, a microphone is an
electroacoustic device -- it collects sound at a point in space and
converts it to voltage. A microphone at a different point in space
collects different sound -- there is a difference in time between those
sounds, which results in a difference in phase. The difference in phase
results in peaks and dips in the frequency response, which in the audio
world is called comb filtering. Third, one mic loads another
electrically, degrading the performance of each.

Third, those of us working in pro audio learned a long time ago that one
mic feeding a single channel is always better than one for picking up a
single sound source like the human voice. Putting more of them in
parallel does not make them work better.

When you see two mics on either side of a podium, it's an indication
that whoever put them there didn't understand that. As the talker moves
side to side, the sound of his/her voice changes due to the
cancellation. Almost 40 years ago, I did a couple of big outdoor sound
reinforcement gigs for the President, and the White House sound
engineers DID understand that -- they studied at the same workshops that
I did. They had Shure build a special mic for them with three capsules
in it, each coming out on their own shielded twisted pair. Two went to
me, the second was for redundancy -- in case wiring for the first one
failed. Each went to a different input of my mix console. The third went
to them for their recording.

73, Jim K9YC

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

Rick wrote: "Now I remember why I only rarely post on this list..."

Same here, Rick. I monitor this list to receive information from Elecraft, and to see what problems others are having with their radios.

I have little interest in most of the technical discussions, since they can rapidly deteriorate into ego contests. That is not necessarily the fault of this list, nor of those on this list. It is simply the nature of one-way text discussions, and people with strong technical backgrounds. That is why e- mail has not completely replaced meetings and video conferencing in the business world.

Mark
KE6BB
Rapidly wearing out my "Delete" key
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riese-k3djc

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

^there is a good article in this months QST on building a mike
suitable for a K3,KX3

Bob K3DJC

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Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Can you please provide a reference for this?

From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

On Sun,1/25/2015 5:20 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
> In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
> "seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
> Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.

Why? If an idea is seriously misguided, saying so is entirely
appropriate. I did not expand on the advice because this is an email
reflector dedicated to Elecraft radios, not microphones.

There are (at least) three reasons why an array of microphones is a
really bad idea. First, really good sounding mics to work with our
radios are widely available cheap. Second, a microphone is an
electroacoustic device -- it collects sound at a point in space and
converts it to voltage. A microphone at a different point in space
collects different sound -- there is a difference in time between those
sounds, which results in a difference in phase. The difference in phase
results in peaks and dips in the frequency response, which in the audio
world is called comb filtering. Third, one mic loads another
electrically, degrading the performance of each.

Third, those of us working in pro audio learned a long time ago that one
mic feeding a single channel is always better than one for picking up a
single sound source like the human voice. Putting more of them in
parallel does not make them work better.

When you see two mics on either side of a podium, it's an indication
that whoever put them there didn't understand that. As the talker moves
side to side, the sound of his/her voice changes due to the
cancellation. Almost 40 years ago, I did a couple of big outdoor sound
reinforcement gigs for the President, and the White House sound
engineers DID understand that -- they studied at the same workshops that
I did. They had Shure build a special mic for them with three capsules
in it, each coming out on their own shielded twisted pair. Two went to
me, the second was for redundancy -- in case wiring for the first one
failed. Each went to a different input of my mix console. The third went
to them for their recording.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by NC3Z

Anything Specific to just the actual elements being in parallel?
I do now there is one commercial mic doing this and is supposed to have good reviews.

From: Walter Underwood <[hidden email]>
To: Harry Yingst <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

You could start with these two, read “close miking” in the Wikipedia article. The second article is about speech recording for oral historians, so that is fairly applicable to voice communications. Neither article even mentions using multiple microphones for one person. The Wikipedia article section on stereo recording gives a hint of some of the strange things that can happen with multiple mics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_practice
http://ohda.matrix.msu.edu/2012/06/understanding-microphones/

Multiple microphones act very similar to phased arrays of antennas. They have directionality and nulls that change with frequency. With a source in one position, they can have a frequency response with a number of peaks and nulls. This is called “comb filtering”.

This article goes over that, including the 3-to-1 rule: "There is a popular microphone placement adage that is known as the 3 to 1 Rule. The 3 to 1 Rule says that if multiple microphones can hear the same source, then no other microphone should be less than 3 times the distance to the source for the microphone nearest the source. In other words, if a person is talking into a microphone that is one foot away from them, then no other microphone in the room should be closer than 3 feet away from that person in order to minimize comb filtering."

http://support.biamp.com/Tesira/Miscellaneous/Comb_filters

wunder
K6WRU
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/

On Jan 25, 2015, at 12:31 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Can you please provide a reference for this?
>
>
> From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project
>
> On Sun,1/25/2015 5:20 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
>> In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
>> "seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
>> Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.
>
> Why? If an idea is seriously misguided, saying so is entirely
> appropriate. I did not expand on the advice because this is an email
> reflector dedicated to Elecraft radios, not microphones.
>
> There are (at least) three reasons why an array of microphones is a
> really bad idea. First, really good sounding mics to work with our
> radios are widely available cheap. Second, a microphone is an
> electroacoustic device -- it collects sound at a point in space and
> converts it to voltage. A microphone at a different point in space
> collects different sound -- there is a difference in time between those
> sounds, which results in a difference in phase. The difference in phase
> results in peaks and dips in the frequency response, which in the audio
> world is called comb filtering. Third, one mic loads another
> electrically, degrading the performance of each.
>
> Third, those of us working in pro audio learned a long time ago that one
> mic feeding a single channel is always better than one for picking up a
> single sound source like the human voice. Putting more of them in
> parallel does not make them work better.
>
> When you see two mics on either side of a podium, it's an indication
> that whoever put them there didn't understand that. As the talker moves
> side to side, the sound of his/her voice changes due to the
> cancellation. Almost 40 years ago, I did a couple of big outdoor sound
> reinforcement gigs for the President, and the White House sound
> engineers DID understand that -- they studied at the same workshops that
> I did. They had Shure build a special mic for them with three capsules
> in it, each coming out on their own shielded twisted pair. Two went to
> me, the second was for redundancy -- in case wiring for the first one
> failed. Each went to a different input of my mix console. The third went
> to them for their recording.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

When it comes to microphones, you get into religious wars. I happen to like doing "live" recording work with a stereo ribbon mike that has the capsules basically "touching" vertically. (Open sound, natural sound field.)
A single point pickup results in a 'coherent' recording. The sound is in phase at that one point in space
Add additional capsules, and you end up with multiple unknowns on 2 equations. (the 3 point omni decca thing for example.) Simply using a pair of mikes in front of a group gets the cleanest stereo recording.. or a single mike to get a mono recording.
Same thing applies on broadcasting. (That is why they use noise gates to turn off idle mikes...so that the pickup of the guy talking isn't added in and cancel him out.)
KK4QDZ - Now with Extra Class Priv's, and a tiny KX3 to enjoy them!
From: Harry Yingst via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>; "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

Can you please provide a reference for this?

From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2015 12:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project

On Sun,1/25/2015 5:20 AM, Gary - NC3Z wrote:
> In my opinion much, much better words should of been choose than
> "seriously misguided", they have connotations that one is an idiot.
> Seriously misguided would be trying to run a 12V device off 120V.

Why? If an idea is seriously misguided, saying so is entirely
appropriate. I did not expand on the advice because this is an email
reflector dedicated to Elecraft radios, not microphones.

There are (at least) three reasons why an array of microphones is a
really bad idea. First, really good sounding mics to work with our
radios are widely available cheap. Second, a microphone is an
electroacoustic device -- it collects sound at a point in space and
converts it to voltage. A microphone at a different point in space
collects different sound -- there is a difference in time between those
sounds, which results in a difference in phase. The difference in phase
results in peaks and dips in the frequency response, which in the audio
world is called comb filtering. Third, one mic loads another
electrically, degrading the performance of each.

Third, those of us working in pro audio learned a long time ago that one
mic feeding a single channel is always better than one for picking up a
single sound source like the human voice. Putting more of them in
parallel does not make them work better.

When you see two mics on either side of a podium, it's an indication
that whoever put them there didn't understand that. As the talker moves
side to side, the sound of his/her voice changes due to the
cancellation. Almost 40 years ago, I did a couple of big outdoor sound
reinforcement gigs for the President, and the White House sound
engineers DID understand that -- they studied at the same workshops that
I did. They had Shure build a special mic for them with three capsules
in it, each coming out on their own shielded twisted pair. Two went to
me, the second was for redundancy -- in case wiring for the first one
failed. Each went to a different input of my mix console. The third went
to them for their recording.

73, Jim K9YC

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James Rogers

Re: My KX3 desk microphone project

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Amen, I could not have said it better!

Jim, W4ATK
On 1/24/2015 1:45 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

> Gary on Behalf of the Board I will extend an apology to you, some here take the Hobby far to serious.
>
> I personally enjoy it when someone tries something and shares it and we all learn from it.
> I've been a Ham for a lot of years and I've seen a lot of things tried that you would think would never work but did.Though my favorite was when I flew RC aircraft and we had a Guy who against all convention used One Bladed Props.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Gary - NC3Z <[hidden email]>
> To: Harry Yingst <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] My KX3 desk microphone project
>
> Nice post Harry. And did you notice still no technical backup?
>
> Gary Mitchelson
> NC3Z Davidsonville, MD FM18
> NC3Z/4 Pamlico County, NC FM15
> www.mitchelson.org
>
>
>
> On 1/24/2015 2:32 PM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:
>> I want to point out one thing about all of this "It's AMATEUR Radio".
>> Last week another list member was hammered on for finding a Bug that even I could replicate here.
>> (Strangely I do not recall anyone making a public apology to that man).
>>
>> So the guy here made a mic and it worked for him and he wanted to share his PROJECT.(Yea I made that same mistake when I found better quality and quieter fans for my K3).
>> Maybe someone could have say Hey that's cool but in my Professional experience we found that X.
>>
>>
>> PS: I work on stuff that is Real Life and Death when it goes down and AMATEUR radio is far from that.
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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