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NG7M / 2 Videos on FSK RTTY timings generated with EXTFSK/64 on new and older PC's via USB FTDI Com Ports

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ng7m

NG7M / 2 Videos on FSK RTTY timings generated with EXTFSK/64 on new and older PC's via USB FTDI Com Ports

This is a bit of a cross post related to Elecraft K3/K3S internal FSK
timings generated with a USB FDTI chipset com port. I wanted to get some
hard measured numbers in a video so I took the time to make the following
two videos. Sorry if you are subscribed to multiple lists and get a
duplicate or two on the video links. I do think it's interesting... if you
can make it through my verbose videos! They don't lack for details on
making sure I'm transparent with the setup. If anything, it will give
something to reference as the discussion/debate continues.

Video #1 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw> Showing Higher End
PC's Generating FSK Diddle Timings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw

Video #2 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs> (new as of this
morning) Showing a 13 year old single core, 1.1ghz Pentium Laptop
Generating FSK Diddle Times (32 bit Win 7 with MMTTY):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs

Max NG7M

--
M. George
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: NG7M / 2 Videos on FSK RTTY timings generated with EXTFSK/64 on new and older PC's via USB FTDI Com Ports

Unfortunately the demonstrations are not accurate representations of
real world conditions. The EXTFSK64 tests were done on a six core,
3 GHz CPU with less than 40% CPU load. The "low end" laptop with
ETFSK was not faced with anywhere near the CPU load exhibited in most
RTTY contest situations. Neither demo stressed the USB bandwidth
(polling two rigs, and running a sound card based panadapter) or
stressed the memory capability (processing a cluster feed at > 100
spots per minute, polling two rigs with multiple commands every 10
to 50 msec, logging and duping QSOs from other stations on a multi-
station LAN).

A significant number of amateurs run "hand me down" processors that
barely meet the N1MM+ minimum standard (1.6 GHz processor, 512MB/1GB
RAM) which are then "loaded to the gills" with CPU and memory intensive
processes.

Measurements at microHAM in 2010 showed +/- 2ms jitter with EXTFSK and
an FTDI USB to Serial UART. 4 ms p-p jitter already represents nearly
20% of a bit period - equivalent to changing the path length by more
than 700 miles within each bit - and will result in a noticeable loss
in decoder signal to noise ratio even with "strong" signals.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 3/24/2018 1:43 PM, M. George wrote:

> This is a bit of a cross post related to Elecraft K3/K3S internal FSK
> timings generated with a USB FDTI chipset com port. I wanted to get some
> hard measured numbers in a video so I took the time to make the following
> two videos. Sorry if you are subscribed to multiple lists and get a
> duplicate or two on the video links. I do think it's interesting... if you
> can make it through my verbose videos! They don't lack for details on
> making sure I'm transparent with the setup. If anything, it will give
> something to reference as the discussion/debate continues.
>
> Video #1 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw> Showing Higher End
> PC's Generating FSK Diddle Timings:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw
>
> Video #2 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs> (new as of this
> morning) Showing a 13 year old single core, 1.1ghz Pentium Laptop
> Generating FSK Diddle Times (32 bit Win 7 with MMTTY):
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs
>
> Max NG7M
>

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Michael Blake

Re: NG7M / 2 Videos on FSK RTTY timings generated with EXTFSK/64 on new and older PC's via USB FTDI Com Ports

What is the timing accuracy using the K3s built in RTTY via the K3 Utility or other applications that use the KY commands?

Michael Blake
[hidden email]

> On Mar 24, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately the demonstrations are not accurate representations of
> real world conditions. The EXTFSK64 tests were done on a six core,
> 3 GHz CPU with less than 40% CPU load. The "low end" laptop with
> ETFSK was not faced with anywhere near the CPU load exhibited in most
> RTTY contest situations. Neither demo stressed the USB bandwidth
> (polling two rigs, and running a sound card based panadapter) or
> stressed the memory capability (processing a cluster feed at > 100
> spots per minute, polling two rigs with multiple commands every 10
> to 50 msec, logging and duping QSOs from other stations on a multi-
> station LAN).
>
> A significant number of amateurs run "hand me down" processors that
> barely meet the N1MM+ minimum standard (1.6 GHz processor, 512MB/1GB
> RAM) which are then "loaded to the gills" with CPU and memory intensive
> processes.
>
> Measurements at microHAM in 2010 showed +/- 2ms jitter with EXTFSK and
> an FTDI USB to Serial UART. 4 ms p-p jitter already represents nearly
> 20% of a bit period - equivalent to changing the path length by more
> than 700 miles within each bit - and will result in a noticeable loss
> in decoder signal to noise ratio even with "strong" signals.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 3/24/2018 1:43 PM, M. George wrote:
>> This is a bit of a cross post related to Elecraft K3/K3S internal FSK
>> timings generated with a USB FDTI chipset com port. I wanted to get some
>> hard measured numbers in a video so I took the time to make the following
>> two videos. Sorry if you are subscribed to multiple lists and get a
>> duplicate or two on the video links. I do think it's interesting... if you
>> can make it through my verbose videos! They don't lack for details on
>> making sure I'm transparent with the setup. If anything, it will give
>> something to reference as the discussion/debate continues.
>> Video #1 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw> Showing Higher End
>> PC's Generating FSK Diddle Timings:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN0SlOHcMQw
>> Video #2 <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs> (new as of this
>> morning) Showing a 13 year old single core, 1.1ghz Pentium Laptop
>> Generating FSK Diddle Times (32 bit Win 7 with MMTTY):
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L48mebqLigs
>> Max NG7M
> ______________________________________________________________
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Richard-6

Who's On First?

In reply to this post by ng7m

A while back, someone commented upon the correct order in which to power up when running WSJT-X, but I can’t remember. It was either K3S first, then computer and software… or the other way around.

Please refresh my memory. And, by the way, why is it the way it is?

Cheers.
Richard -- W4KBX
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Richard Ferch-2

Re: Who's On First?

That wasn't me, but...the optimum order is computer, then K3, then WSJT-X.

The reasons: Well, obviously the computer has to come before the software.
The process of starting up the computer causes various signal lines on the
serial port used for radio control to be toggled briefly, which can cause
annoying behaviour at the radio, so it is easier (although not essential)
to have the computer already running when you start the radio. The WSJT-X
software expects rig control to be working when it starts, otherwise it
annoyingly prompts you to reconfigure, and the software won't actually
start operating properly until the radio is turned on, so it is best to
have the radio turned on before you start the software.

73,
Rich VE3KI
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Nr4c

Re: Who's On First?

Computer first. (This initializes the com ports)

Then radio. (Radio needs the com ports)

Now the software. (Now that radio has its necessary connections, start the software which can now find the radio and other necessary connections. )

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> That wasn't me, but...the optimum order is computer, then K3, then WSJT-X.
>
> The reasons: Well, obviously the computer has to come before the software.
> The process of starting up the computer causes various signal lines on the
> serial port used for radio control to be toggled briefly, which can cause
> annoying behaviour at the radio, so it is easier (although not essential)
> to have the computer already running when you start the radio. The WSJT-X
> software expects rig control to be working when it starts, otherwise it
> annoyingly prompts you to reconfigure, and the software won't actually
> start operating properly until the radio is turned on, so it is best to
> have the radio turned on before you start the software.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Bill Frantz

Re: Who's On First?

In reply to this post by Richard-6

On my Mac system, it doesn't seem to matter whether the radio or
the computer starts first. The USB interface to my upgraded K3
is powered from the computer with enough functionality that the
computer recognizes it without the radio being on.

In any case, start wsjt-x last because it will try to talk to
the radio for rig control and harass you until it can succeed.
I've been in this situation enough times to know that starting
the radio, waiting until the radio is ready to talk to the
computer and then clicking "Retry" works.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/28/18 at 6:42 AM, [hidden email] (Richard) wrote:

>A while back, someone commented upon the correct order in which
>to power up when running WSJT-X, but I can’t remember. It was
>either K3S first, then computer and software… or the other
>way around.
>
>Please refresh my memory. And, by the way, why is it the way it is?
>
>Cheers.
>Richard -- W4KBX

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"After all, if the conventional wisdom was
working, the
408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be
going down,
www.pwpconsult.com | wouldn't it?" -- Marcus Ranum

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Don Wilhelm

Re: Who's On First?

Bill,

If you have updated the K3 firmware in the last few months, it does not
make any difference whether the K3 or the computer is turned on first.
The K3 now has a SAFE mode that disables DTR and RTS until it receives
some command like polling for frequency, mode, etc. from your software
application.

You can go into the K3 CONFIG menu for KEY-PTT and turn it to unsafe if
you have devices that monitor the RS-232 bus and do not issue any
commands (SteppIR controllers for one instance).

Look at the firmware release notes for the past 3 months.
BTW, the firmware release notes should be considered an addition to your
K3/K3S manual. Do not overlook them.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/29/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> On my Mac system, it doesn't seem to matter whether the radio or the
> computer starts first. The USB interface to my upgraded K3 is powered
> from the computer with enough functionality that the computer recognizes
> it without the radio being on.
>
> In any case, start wsjt-x last because it will try to talk to the radio
> for rig control and harass you until it can succeed. I've been in this
> situation enough times to know that starting the radio, waiting until
> the radio is ready to talk to the computer and then clicking "Retry" works.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>

kevinr@coho.net

Re: Who's On First?

The real question is the name of the right fielder?

Kevin. KD5ONS

On 03/29/2018 05:11 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Bill,
>
> If you have updated the K3 firmware in the last few months, it does
> not make any difference whether the K3 or the computer is turned on
> first.
> The K3 now has a SAFE mode that disables DTR and RTS until it receives
> some command like polling for frequency, mode, etc. from your software
> application.
>
> You can go into the K3 CONFIG menu for KEY-PTT and turn it to unsafe
> if you have devices that monitor the RS-232 bus and do not issue any
> commands (SteppIR controllers for one instance).
>
> Look at the firmware release notes for the past 3 months.
> BTW, the firmware release notes should be considered an addition to
> your K3/K3S manual. Do not overlook them.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR

Bill Frantz

Re: Who's On First?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think the Mac moves the
DTR/RTS lines when it boots. I haven't ever seen the K3 go into
transmit mode when I reboot.

Of course that might be because I have PTT_KEY set to OFF-OFF
and use VOX for sound card modes except wsjt-x and RUMlogNG
contest mode. (They use the CAT interface.)

73 Bill AE6JV

On 3/29/18 at 5:11 PM, [hidden email] (Don Wilhelm) wrote:

>If you have updated the K3 firmware in the last few months, it
>does not make any difference whether the K3 or the computer is
>turned on first.
>The K3 now has a SAFE mode that disables DTR and RTS until it
>receives some command like polling for frequency, mode, etc.
>from your software application.
>
>You can go into the K3 CONFIG menu for KEY-PTT and turn it to
>unsafe if you have devices that monitor the RS-232 bus and do
>not issue any commands (SteppIR controllers for one instance).
>
>Look at the firmware release notes for the past 3 months.
>BTW, the firmware release notes should be considered an
>addition to your K3/K3S manual. Do not overlook them.
>
>73,
>Don W3FPR
>
>On 3/29/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>On my Mac system, it doesn't seem to matter whether the radio
>>or the computer starts first. The USB interface to my upgraded
>>K3 is powered from the computer with enough functionality that
>>the computer recognizes it without the radio being on.
>>
>>In any case, start wsjt-x last because it will try to talk to
>>the radio for rig control and harass you until it can succeed.
>>I've been in this situation enough times to know that starting
>>the radio, waiting until the radio is ready to talk to the
>>computer and then clicking "Retry" works.
>>
>>73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn
up the
408-356-8506 | intelligence. There's a knob called
"brightness", but
www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher

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Jack Brindle-2

Re: Who's On First?

This is a remnant of days long gone when the PC - DOS and early Windows systems used serial-port connected mice. It used the sequence to detect the presence of a mouse. The Mac has never used asynchronous serial-port based mice, instead using a special bus, followed by ADB in early Macs (starting with the Mac Plus), then USB after it was adopted. Thus it does not mess with the serial ports on startup.

I now wonder why Microsoft maintains this arcane procedure since its utility has long passed into history.

Jack, W6FB

> On Mar 31, 2018, at 4:31 PM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I guess I'm not being clear. I don't think the Mac moves the DTR/RTS lines when it boots. I haven't ever seen the K3 go into transmit mode when I reboot.
>
> Of course that might be because I have PTT_KEY set to OFF-OFF and use VOX for sound card modes except wsjt-x and RUMlogNG contest mode. (They use the CAT interface.)
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> On 3/29/18 at 5:11 PM, [hidden email] (Don Wilhelm) wrote:
>
>> If you have updated the K3 firmware in the last few months, it does not make any difference whether the K3 or the computer is turned on first.
>> The K3 now has a SAFE mode that disables DTR and RTS until it receives some command like polling for frequency, mode, etc. from your software application.
>>
>> You can go into the K3 CONFIG menu for KEY-PTT and turn it to unsafe if you have devices that monitor the RS-232 bus and do not issue any commands (SteppIR controllers for one instance).
>>
>> Look at the firmware release notes for the past 3 months.
>> BTW, the firmware release notes should be considered an addition to your K3/K3S manual. Do not overlook them.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 3/29/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>>> On my Mac system, it doesn't seem to matter whether the radio or the computer starts first. The USB interface to my upgraded K3 is powered from the computer with enough functionality that the computer recognizes it without the radio being on.
>>>
>>> In any case, start wsjt-x last because it will try to talk to the radio for rig control and harass you until it can succeed. I've been in this situation enough times to know that starting the radio, waiting until the radio is ready to talk to the computer and then clicking "Retry" works.
>>>
>>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz | "I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the
> 408-356-8506 | intelligence. There's a knob called "brightness", but
> www.pwpconsult.com | it doesn't work. -- Gallagher
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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k6dgw

Re: Who's On First?

Because it's there, Jack. Code comes ... it never goes.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 3/31/2018 7:03 PM, Jack Brindle wrote:
> This is a remnant of days long gone when the PC - DOS and early Windows systems used serial-port connected mice. It used the sequence to detect the presence of a mouse. The Mac has never used asynchronous serial-port based mice, instead using a special bus, followed by ADB in early Macs (starting with the Mac Plus), then USB after it was adopted. Thus it does not mess with the serial ports on startup.
>
> I now wonder why Microsoft maintains this arcane procedure since its utility has long passed into history.
>
> Jack, W6FB
>

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Bob Wilson, N6TV

Re: Who's On First?

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm

Yes, according to the Release notes (hfwnotes.rtf):

*MCU 5.33 / DSP 2.86 / FPF 1.23, 8-3-2015*

* PTT/KEY USE WITH THE USB PORT IMPROVED: PC applications can activate PTT
and KEY at the K3S via the USB port's RTS/DTR signals. However, initial
setup of the rig's USB port by the PC may cause pulsed or continuous
activation of the transmitter. This can happen if the computer is turned on
after the K3S, or if the USB cable is not connected. There is now a "Safe"
mode (the default) which disables PTT-KEY transmit until the K3S receives a
command via USB, such as a read of the rig's VFO frequency. To turn on safe
mode on/off, go into CONFIG:PTT-KEY and tap '1' to select "USB SAFE" or
"UNSAFE". Exit the menu and turn the K3S off/on. Applications that use
PTT-KEY via USB but never send commands may require "UNSAFE" mode. In this
case, unwanted transmit can be avoided by turning the PC on before the K3S.

* CANCELLING UNEXPECTED PTT-KEY ACTIVATION: If an external source (usually
a PC) activates PTT or KEY unexpectedly, you can cancel transmit by tapping
the XMIT switch. This will show ERR KEY or ERR PTT on VFO B. Once the PTT
or KEY source as been removed, transmit will be re-enabled. If the cause
may be unneeded PTT-KEY activation via the USB port, go into the
CONFIG:PTT-KEY menu entry and set the parameter to OFF-OFF.

However, if use an FTDI USB-to-Serial adapter on Windows with other
Elecraft radios or devices, the FTDI drivers provide an easy way to disable
the search for a serial mouse or legacy analog modem on the serial port,
and this prevents unwanted RTS/DTR "key down" activation at boot time.
This works with recent KUSB adapters or homebrew external CW or FSK keying
circuits on virtual serial ports that may be connected to your radio (K3,
K3S, KX2, KX3, etc.).

1. Open the Windows *Device Manager* (shortcut: Windows Key + R
(run): devmgmt.msc)
2. Expand *Ports*
3. *Right click* on the virtual COM port defined by the FTDI
USB-to-Serial Adapter
4. Click *Properties*
5. Select the *Port Settings* tab
6. Click the *Advanced...* button
7. Under *Miscellaneous Options*:
1. Uncheck *Serial Enumerator* (default is checked)
2. Check *Disable Modem Control at Startup* (default is unchecked).
This should be the only option in the list that should be checked.
8. Click *OK* to close the Advanced Settings dialog
9. Click *OK* again to close the Serial Port Properties dialog

As far as I know, only FTDI's USB-to-Serial drivers provide options to
disable this legacy behavior on Windows that causes RTS/DTR to be activated
at boot time.

73,
Bob, N6TV

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Bill,
>
> If you have updated the K3 firmware in the last few months, it does not
> make any difference whether the K3 or the computer is turned on first.
> The K3 now has a SAFE mode that disables DTR and RTS until it receives
> some command like polling for frequency, mode, etc. from your software
> application.
>
> You can go into the K3 CONFIG menu for KEY-PTT and turn it to unsafe if
> you have devices that monitor the RS-232 bus and do not issue any commands
> (SteppIR controllers for one instance).
>
> Look at the firmware release notes for the past 3 months.
> BTW, the firmware release notes should be considered an addition to your
> K3/K3S manual. Do not overlook them.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 3/29/2018 6:58 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>
>> On my Mac system, it doesn't seem to matter whether the radio or the
>> computer starts first. The USB interface to my upgraded K3 is powered from
>> the computer with enough functionality that the computer recognizes it
>> without the radio being on.
>>
>> In any case, start wsjt-x last because it will try to talk to the radio
>> for rig control and harass you until it can succeed. I've been in this
>> situation enough times to know that starting the radio, waiting until the
>> radio is ready to talk to the computer and then clicking "Retry" works.
>>
>> 73 Bill AE6JV
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>